spambot

Good Response. it would also require good management of UK account(s) since any spent funds out of an account(s) and not remitted to Thailand or addition into the account(s) would no longer be available as tax free and after many years of similar transaction contaminations could become a complex argument to sustain with RD.

Yup - I read the info on the website for your included text "When tax is not due.... Non residents do not usually pay UK tax on state pensions" - I got a different interpretation of what it was saying and the way I read this Is: if normally a non resident does not pay tax on state pensions (because it is below the personal allowance) then no tax is payable. However your interpretation is - If you are non resident then you do not need to pay tax on the state pension. I can see that it might be interpreted in two ways and I am now not totally convinced which might be the absolute correct interpretation. However the same HMRC website you provided the link for also says. You usually have to pay tax on your UK income even if you’re not a UK resident. Income includes things like: pension Also what would be more decisive is what is in the Thailand DTA. While it is a little bit inconclusive, this seems to identify taxation by the UK of Gov pensions, but it is not totally clear if this is referring to state pensions or government employment pensions or possibly both - ARTICLE 19.—(1) (a) Remuneration, other than a pension, paid by a Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State

With the proviso - UK government state pension remain liable to tax in the UK no matter where you are resident.

Mnnn - Good info. So for example with £175,000 inside a savings account on 31 Dec 2023 - Then remitting 65k Thb / month (Approx. £17,500 / yr) to a Thai Bank for Visa ext. This essentially provides 10yrs of remittance that is free from taxation - Am I understanding you correctly?

For UK pensioners currently who have not disclosed their stay in Thailand in order to retain indexation increases annually, but want to claim the dual taxation relief, presumably they will have then effectively disclosed their Thai residency and have then prevented any future pension increase (subject to the automatic UK / overseas tests).

Just identifying the percentages for taxation allowance is missing my point, calculating numbers in a spreadsheet is not complicated. I was referring to when a Tax is being considered for a formal case investigation. Inspectors are aware of collecting evidence and building a case can be complicated. If the suspect is considered as not truthful and for example its believed they are selling more than stated, where spoils/wastage are less than claimed etc. Investigations can be grey area considerations and this requires more work in determining what is truthful. It would be far more beneficial to optimise efforts for any Tax investigation when none of these grey areas exist. With an expat the consideration are more black and white and hence become quicker, easier and more productive to investigate.

Mnnnnn - Its a good point about the Tax allowances for working Thai's. These working allowance will be mostly unavailable to expats on a retirement Visa. This will make it more beneficial to optimise efforts for a Tax investigation on expats since they will likely not pose this same complication.

Can you just clarify a little more on what you have identified - "Most to many Americans through legal tax deductions/credits pay little to nothing for the first 50K dollars each year. In Thailand that number is reduced to around $4kand theoretically retirees would have to pay taxes on the amount above 4k that was never taxed if brought into Thailand." I am unfamiliar with US Federal Taxation and am not sure if the "legal tax deductions/credits" that you identify if they are simply Tax allowances or they belong to some other method. For example in the UK there are available personal allowance on earnings £12,570, savings interest allowance (approx.) £6,000, Dividends allowance £500 (April 2024), capital Gains allowance £3,000 (April 2024). Hence it would be theoretically possible up to £22,070 is taxed at 0%. This means that all the £22,070 has been taxed and would be allowable for DTA (if all allowances are observed by Thailand). Referring back to your post - If the first $50k is the equivalent to the UK £22,070 (taxed at 0%) isn't then in your example, the tax free amount available to bring into Thailand without being taxed, $50K rather than $4k.

Excellent balanced positional response.

You make some very good points here and on the whole I agree with your logic. Obviously much is current speculation, but speculation that is well thought out like this educates - understanding all the issues that might happen, allows the reader to better comprehend the actual situation when it does happen - Context in complexity is what drives better decisions.

Good info and this makes sense - "they just need to see a home country tax return, even it it doesn't indicate any taxes being paid (because standard deduction exceeds gross income, etc)"

Excellent response for clarification - Thank you.

Excellent post identifying a valuable consideration - Saving prior to 2024 can (might) be used as a buffer against possible tax on remitted funds.

This helps a lot - Your response to atpeaceb with a very good question - for previous years taxed income, but now in savings - It is unlikely to be taxed when remitted to Thailand after 31st Dec 2023. Therefore any such saving pot that has been held by a retiree outside the country can be regarded as a potential buffer against tax.

Mnnn - Actually you bring up a good point about ISA's - That is, if tax protected vehicles in the UK will be respected. Most of the funds deposited into an ISA would be from earnings and would have been subject to Tax prior to deposit and If rather than used for making an ISA deposit the funds had been sent into Thailand, normally this would be DTA protected, hence unlikely to be Taxed in Thailand. However if in the tax year when funds are taken out of the ISA they are then remitted as resident in Thailand - Will the Tax free vehicle change the taxable status of the initial deposits which have already been taxed. For example, for taxed income deposits of £100K in an ISA with an increase of say £5K tax free inside the ISA, then £20k is withdrawn, transferred out when resident in Thailand - Will this be treated as mixture of taxed/untaxed or will all withdrawn funds be considered as not taxed since its coming out from a tax free vehicle in the same year as it arrives in Thailand. I suspect no one knows right now, but worth watching as further details emerge.

Ahhh - Good Clarification Response - You have highlighted that it is very important to consider - "If you are over age 65 for example, your TEDA is circa 350k baht which can effectively be added to the 150k zero rated tax band giving you around 500k baht tax free"

Mike Lister is correct having Knowledge is strength. Rather than, 'War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.' George Orwell 1984.

Good information about the Tax clearance certificate - Also I think you are right METV tourists would be a big issue and rather confusing expecting Tax to be considered on Exit. There are around 2.6 million foreigners long term resident in Thailand and if eliminating the people from Lao, Myanmar and Cambodia (1.8 million), then about 800k other long term foreigners is a healthy number to start new Tax investigation activities. However probably initially the more important priority will be actual Thailand nationals, sufficiently wealthy who have been repatriating overseas funds at zero tax.

Thanks for that - I appreciate the feedback. I have factored this into the Tax calculation (But just for TEDA - Single personal allowance) arriving at £475 Tax to pay. Also thanks to pauku1 the numbers in the spreadsheet look reasonable and are very useful in order to start some outline Tax planning. As you rightly point out there are other allowances (Credit Mike Lister) - Taken from one of your previous posts TEDA = Tax Allowance, Deductions & Exemptions PA1 = 60,000 (personal Allowance for the tax filer) PA2 = 60,000 (deductions for spouse) OAE - 190,000 (over age 65 years exemptions) PD - 50% of pension received, max 100,000 (deductions for pension income received) ZR - zero rated for tax - 150,000 (the zero rated tax band in the tax tables) The big surprise is possibly for anyone new to Thailand and who requires 800,000 Baht (Retirement) to satisfy the Visa requirement and gets charged (estimated using only single person 60K personal allowance) £800 in tax just to satisfying this requirement. There is going to be a lot of armchair accountants that will try and figure out ways to eliminate this tax - One way would be to ensure the transferring of any funds are in the Tax year prior to arriving. Possibly also for anyone who is already long stay, leave the country for greater than 180 days (in the same Tax year) and buffer their account with a large lump sum for the non tax year. Obviously a lot of effort and a lot of funding.

It might be a good plan if you have the lifestyle option to move funds into Thailand in the tax year that you are not resident just to stay under the radar. but if its just about the odd time visiting and being over the 180 days by a few days or even a few weeks these type of infrequent occurrences is probably not going to be worth the effort for the Tax to capture. The more likely first targets will probably be low hanging fruit, such as long term recurring tax paying expats on NON-IMMIGRANT VISA "O" who must provide full details where they live and a financial statement annually.

Nice Work - Thanks for doing the upload - All sensible and considered information while working as a group benefits everyone when something new like this needs better understanding.

While some tax might be saved through Dual Taxation relief, in the case of a UK pensioner this might not be as clear cut as identified in the article, which says… "John’s pension, while now subject to tax in Thailand, might find some relief through a double taxation agreement between the UK and Thailand." The double taxation treaty means that any pension income, should it be private pensions or state pension, is taxed locally in the UK, but can not be double taxed by Thailand. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf In the agreement between Thailand and UK, within the section that relates to UK personal allowances, how they will be treated in Thailand in set out below. 4) Nothing contained in this Article shall be construed as obliging either Contracting State to grant to individuals not resident in that State any of the personal allowances, reliefs and reductions for tax purposes which are granted to individuals so resident. Rewriting this in more straightforward simple words, Thailand is not required to give tax benefits, like personal allowances, to British passport holders who are living in Thailand and receiving income from the UK. The UK tax free Personal Allowance for the tax year 2024-2025 is set at £12,570. If the personal allowance is not made available in Thailand then the basic state pension, which would be normally below this personal allowance when paid in UK would not be subject to UK Tax, but when when paid in Thailand (if personal allowance is not given consideration) Tax could be payable on all income not taxed by HMRC, which could be the total pension amount. Quickly looking at the Thailand Tax rates - Personal income tax (PIT) 150,001 to 300,000 = 5% (£3,300 - £6,700) 300,001 to 500,000 = 10% (£6,700 - £11,100) Then pay 15% (PIT) rate (between £11,100 - £16,700) A rough and dirty calculation - If all of Pension coming in from UK was say a total value of 500,000 Baht (about same as New state Pension) and if no personal tax allowance is given consideration, while including the statutory 60,000 exemptions, but not including child or spouse or health exemptions, Taxed on 440,000 Income - The Tax payable would be 21,500 (£475). Obviously this is 'Only' if the personal allowance (Single person) is not made available for UK pension payments sent to Thailand. This is not Tax advice since I have no idea better than the next, what the Thai Revenue will decide - This is only meant to identify what might be possible and is not meant to be anything other than a personal contribution to understand some of the potential issues for many UK pensioners living in Thailand.

How did you insert the box around opera://settings/siteData

With 122 Google reviews Overall 4.4/5 rating in Google Places First review on Google Places seems to set the tone for most of the rest : https://g.co/kgs/jaxHdpX "This Thailand embassy is freaking amazing . Very well organized and very accurate with information they provide regarding the documents you need to prepare for them unlike the Hanoi Thailand embassy ,I hope I am spelling his name correctly Cedric was very friendly and helpful and made the process of getting my tourist visa effortless. Originally I was in Hanoi Thai embassy and dealing with them was an absolute nightmare, so I decided to come to Manila to get my Thai visa here and I am extremely happy I made that call. Thank you and I hope I see you guys again."

Worth Noting - Thanks NextG