Bunnychow
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Posts posted by Bunnychow
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From what I learnt it is not possible to get a WP without working for a Thai company (whether this is as a "normal employee" or a company director).
Isn´t that true?
You can be company director without a WP provided you play no active role in operating the business in Thailand.
A WP can be had for a representative office which technically is not a Thai company, but you can only operate the office for 6 years, need to front THB 6.million (if memory serves) you don't need the 4 Thai employee thing etc, and you not allowed to invoice via the rep office
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To Jack Thompson - I was interested in your comments regarding this topic and wonder if you can offer me any advice?
I lived (and worked) in HK for 20 years and am therefore a 'HK resident' - although I am British. I also had my own business there and business and personal bank accounts. Regrettably, when I retired to Thailand just over two years ago, I closed my business and bank accounts thinking I would not need them any longer. However, I now wish to consider my consultancy business here - but have been told I need to establish a Thai company (and all the paraphernalia that involves!) as well as acquire a work permit.
I am considering re-registering my business in HK again and re-opening my bank accounts there also. From what I have read and if I have understood it correctly, can I then simply invoice my clients to pay me through my HK company? Also, would I still need a work permit as I am effectively working for a HK-based company?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
If your physically present in Thailand and working you would need a WP, where your getting paid is irrelevant in terms of the WP definitions
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Invoices originating from Thailand, so confirmation he is working in Thailand, needs a WP and needs to pay Thai income tax,
Resident in Thailand for more than 180 p.a. he is classed as a resident of Thailand for tax purposes and therefore liable for tax on all worldwide income if he brings the money into Thailand the year its earned...*see above using invoices with a Thai address to confirm how they would know when the money was earned
UK sourced income - HMRC would get first dibs at his tax money and most likely nothing payable in Thailand under the reciprocal tax agreement
International clients - Thai tax man gets first dibs, as he is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days p.a.
Ok ...
Over time, I´ve spoken to quite a few freelancers over here and how they handle their tax affairs. The vast majority of them said that they just invoice their clients in (predominantly) the UK but don´t declare the income to neither HMRC nor the Thai authorities (the latter understandably so since none of them had a WP). When I said "But this is tax evasion/fraud" they only replied: "Yeah, but they are never going to find out."
Well, I thought and still think that this is wishful thinking, isn´t it?
80 countries have signed an agreement with the UK government to hand over mass account data of British passport holders starting from next year I think it is...so if the freelancers are hiding their UK sourced money in these countries then the UK tax man will have the info, which could lead to many questions from the tax man.
I am not a freelancer and i bank in Singapore and a UK passport holder, so if the taxman from the UK ever came knocking.
1. I work in Thailand and pay my taxes here
2. Haven't set foot in the UK in over 15 years
3. have no bank accounts in the UK
4 Have no house or properties
Per the new definitions, I have absolutely "no closes ties" with the UK, and I am automatically non resident...
so as far as I am concerned they can kiss my a*se
But under the new "non-residency" one needs to be quite careful if one has "ties" with the UK somehow or spends too much time in the UK in a given tax year
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Where would OP have to pay tax if he put his private address in Thailand on his invoices and invoices his UK and other international clients as a private individual? Assuming he lives in LOS all year around, wouldn´t it actually be the Thais who´d be entitled to receiving the tax? Now, since he cannot legally work as a freelancer he cannot pay the tax over here, since, officially, he isn´t working. So what will happen if he doesn´t declare his income to neither the UK nor the Thai tax authorities?
Invoices originating from Thailand, so confirmation he is working in Thailand, needs a WP and needs to pay Thai income tax,
Resident in Thailand for more than 180 p.a. he is classed as a resident of Thailand for tax purposes and therefore liable for tax on all worldwide income if he brings the money into Thailand the year its earned...*see above using invoices with a Thai address to confirm how they would know when the money was earned
UK sourced income - HMRC would get first dibs at his tax money and most likely nothing payable in Thailand under the reciprocal tax agreement
International clients - Thai tax man gets first dibs, as he is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days p.a.
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working in Thailand with a B-visa ? US passport holder ?...US embassy irrelevant in this case ?
Can they cancel a B visa ?.....no
Can they cancel an extension of stay... yes...without your permission
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Putting a logo and a company name (that doesn't exist) is just a design feature. The invoice is from a person to a client and payment is to that person submitting the invoice.
That is possibly fraud and definitely misrepresentation, you cant represent yourself as a company ie a legal entity and then invoice from a person to client...
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In my case I've never been resident in the UK. Not born there, never lived there, rarely even visited.
I also have zero UK sourced income so I'm good on that account.
But we are not talking about me and I'd wager the OP *is* probably still legally resident and therefore liable for tax in the UK on UK derived income.
If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax.
"If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax"
As its the source of the monies that's the issue...A UK pensioner living in Thailand having never set foot in the UK for 20 years will still be paying tax in his pension in the UK as the source of the income is the UK
Further if the OP has never worked outside the UK, to be declared non-resent for tax he needs to have been out of the UK for a prescribed amount of time and needs to qualify under the rules for non-residency for tax purposes
But we are talking about monies derived outside of the UK from as the OP said "International Clients"
"international clients" can mean anything, but he also says invoicing through his UK company, so the UK tax liability what ever that may be is already established, and one assumes its his own company in the UK which invoices his "international clients" company to company...which is exactly what we are talking about in relation to HK...
So if he keeps the structure he has, he will be paying UK income tax in some shape or form anyway....he can get away from this, if as suggested he forms another company in the likes of HK and moves his UK company "offshore" but you do it legally and not mess about with false companies and dummy invoices from entities that don't exist..that's just plain stupid
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As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?
I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)
If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.
depends whether you are declared legally non-resident for tax purposes or not and whether you have UK sourced income or not.
you may have never lived in the UK ever, but if for some reason you have UK source income you in all likelihood liable for UK tax on that income source
In my case I've never been resident in the UK. Not born there, never lived there, rarely even visited.
I also have zero UK sourced income so I'm good on that account.
But we are not talking about me and I'd wager the OP *is* probably still legally resident and therefore liable for tax in the UK on UK derived income.
If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax.
"If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax"
As its the source of the monies that's the issue...A UK pensioner living in Thailand having never set foot in the UK for 20 years will still be paying tax in his pension in the UK as the source of the income is the UK
Further if the OP has never worked outside the UK, to be declared non-resent for tax he needs to have been out of the UK for a prescribed amount of time and needs to qualify under the rules for non-residency for tax purposes
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You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.
Why even bother setting up a HK company.
Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.
And what happens when the HK BIB start investigating the "company" for fraudulent trading
setting up a legitimate shelf corporation in HK is so easy why even bother going the fictitious route unless one is completly stupid and lazy, or is fact undertaking and illegal business to start with
Why would the HK Police have anything to do with it?
The OP is doing work online (software engineering)
All he needs to do is set up a personal bank account in Hong Kong
Then invoice his customers as himslef and ask them to pay into his personal account in HK.
Why does he need a company?
Nothing fraudulent at all..... except if he wants to 'brand' himself, in which case just put a brand on the invoice "XYZ Software Development"
Why does that need to be 'a company'?
You only need a company when tax is involved but as tax would not be part of the equation I can't see the need for an actual company structure.
If you did something for me online like fixing my website and I needed to pay you, would you go to the trouble of setting up a company or simply let me transfer the payment to you?
Lets say our OP is a UK national who works on line for UK based companies, as the income is UK sourced, if he works as an individual, ie no legal entity, the company he works for is legally obligated to take income tax off him for services rendered.
The way around this is to set up a legal entity such as a limited company to invoice the UK company to "A company" and the individuals tax liability doesn't come into play and is shifted onto "company A" which is owned by the OP and typically these shelf companies are based in jurisdictions with low company tax and low personal income tax, such as HK.
If the OP creates a false company with false invoices reputably from a HK company (which is not legally registered) he is committing tax fraud in the UK, and he is committing companies fraud in HK. further under companies law, putting company invoice amounts into a private bank account is also "illegal" as the money is intended for the legal entity which is recognized as a "person"
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You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.
Why even bother setting up a HK company.
Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.
I would really advise you NOT, repeat NOT, to do this . This will be bordering on tax evasion (in the UK) based on fake documents/ addresses. Set up a proper HK limited company, which is not expensive and carry on.
As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?
I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)
If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.
depends whether you are declared legally non-resident for tax purposes or not and whether you have UK sourced income or not.
you may have never lived in the UK ever, but if for some reason you have UK source income you in all likelihood liable for UK tax on that income source
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You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.
Why even bother setting up a HK company.
Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.
And what happens when the HK BIB start investigating the "company" for fraudulent trading
setting up a legitimate shelf corporation in HK is so easy why even bother going the fictitious route unless one is completly stupid and lazy, or is fact undertaking and illegal business to start with
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- If you are managing the property yourself then technically a work permit is needed.
- If you use an agent/management company you wouldn't need one.
Surely you are still the one doing the trading. You own the asset, you are taking the profits from the trade. The management company are in effect just your employee, for a fee, doing work in your trade. Similarly if you owned a restaurant and carried on a business with thais doing the serving etc you are still trading.
but your physically not doing any work in Thailand, you have employed someone else to do the work, if you own a restaurant and played no active role in running that restaurant then you don't need a WP...same rational, in using an agent your not playing a active role in this "business"
You give money to a bank to invest for you, its your asset, you expect a profit from the investments/ trades the bank does,
Do you need a work permit ?....no of course you don't
however if you own one or more condo's in Thailand and rent these out yourself, and take care of all the "running" and maintenance, then you are in effect running a "real estate business" and as such as your directly involved with running the "business" you would need a WP
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If you rent your place be it Condo or House for money you are essentially trading. To trade you need a work permit
Nope...
1. If you let an agent/company handle everything as regards rentals..then no WP needed
2. If you handle everything yourself, including things like maintenance, writing up contracts etc...then yes one suspects you may need a WP.
Similar example
You wouldn't need a work permit for looking after your own investments, inclusive of stock and share trading, but the minute you start doing the same thing for someone else then you would need a WP
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Google and read up on kodi.
Or "filmon"
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The UK has a legal process to change ones name called a deed poll and people use this process all the time so Thais changing their name is hardly unique
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And do not forget to get one internationally Driving license from your home country. You can also choose which language it should be inside the Internationale Driver License Book (It's a book with photos and what you are allowed and run), If you do not have Thai driving license. Here in Phuket now you get 500 Bath in thicket if you don`t have the Internationally Driver license or a Thai Driver License Whit you. it`s not helping whit a American driver license alone.
Here can you read more about Internationalt Driver license : http://idl-iaa.com
That IDP you have linked to is a rip off at USD 35
The official IDP from the AAA in the US is only USD 20
And the one your linking to isnt even recognised to issue IDPs against US licenses
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I don't get how or why people bitch about 90 day reporting. It's pretty painless.
People bitch about it not because of the physical act of having to report its more of a case of perceived superiority some people have over the "natives" in other words they are bitching because it case of "how dare the natives make the whities report their address every 90 days, dont the natives know their place "
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Most Thai's believe most male farang come to Thailand to boom boom dark Isaan ladies
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They can deny you entry, visa or not, they just will not let you out the airport and ultimately you will be put back on a plane at your expense from whence you came
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Get your hands on a copy of the double taxation agreement between the UK and Thailand. I figure it should be possible to download the English version from the UK government site and your accountant should be able to get the Thai version from the Thai revenue office.
No disagree, get your hands on a reputable international tax consultancy who are familar with both UK and Thai tax law and let them do it
the OP should not be trying a DIY set up given the possbile complexity of his situation, and the reciprocal tax agreement between the UK/Thailand is only a small part of this, all the agreement basically says there is an agreement in place, not how you should structure your tax affairs
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First thing to do is make sure your esteemed collegue is still alive, glad your not my friend waiting for 15 days before checking to see if a person is ok.
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Thank you - all very useful points.
And Scorecard - yes I may want to go for Thai Residency in future so that is another valuable point.
So looks like I can maintain my Thai Work permit even though I will be here less than 180 days - but may need to continue to pay tax in Thailand .... and paying local tax may be an advantage in the longer term.
To keep things (comparatively) simple I plan to have a UK salary to cover work in UK and Brussels and any other work that is not in Thailand, and a salary in Thailand for my Thai based work. The Brexit issue may straddle my time in UK - but there's just too many unknowns to worry about this aspect.
I'll need to be in Thailand each April/May to sign all the year end accounts and again in November for the Visa and Work Permit renewals. I also hope to be here in January as the UK winter is miserable!
We have a good accounting/legal advisor who has offices in Bangkok and London - so they can advise on the legal requirements and let me know the most tax efficient split - but sounds like I may need to pay tax at both ends. I'll put an update on here in case anyone else has similar questions.
Anything else I've missed?
Any other thoughts appreciated as it helps me to ask the right question (and to avoid asking the wrong ones and racking up fees with the lawyers).
If your drawing a UK based salary...you will pay tax in the UK, same with a Thailand based salary tax will be payable, the trick is getting someone to work out the most tax efficent way of doing it, as you know if you get classed as resident in the UK for tax purposes you would be liable for income tax on your worldwide income, and thats where the reciprocal tax agreement between the UK/Thailand may come into play...and i will stop there, as thats about the limit of my "tax knowlege" as your case could be quite complicated LOL
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You will be paying tax in the UK almost certainly, if thats were they are basing you, if your not working in Thailand for periods you may not be liable for Thai tax, as like the UK, income tax is based on residency and there are reciprocal tax agreements in place between the UK and Thailand, given you will be working between multiple tax jurisdictions you need proper tax advice as it could bite you in the bum at some pointBut is there a minimum numbers of days that I need to spend in Thailand to maintain my Work Permit?
I can't find anything on various web sites about a minimum period - but I've been told that it's 180 days minimum in country?
By whom have you been told this?
The 180 days (and also a need to pay tax in Thailand) came from our office HR Manager - but she did say she wasn't sure - so was going ask the external lawyer. But I wanted a quick answer as I need to discuss the UK role with our US head office tomorrow. So the answer's here are very helpful for me. I'll get formal advice before making any moves - but knew I could get a quick answer on TV to help me decide. I guess I may become liable for UK tax, which is unfortunate as I've been out of UK for so long I no longer needed to do UK Tax Returns. I'll be working in UK, Brussels and Thailand (if it all happens) - but keen to maintain Thailand Work permit as I'm the Director of the local business (and I like it here!). I currently only go to UK for family visits and work meetings - couple of weeks a year.
I would strongly recomend you consult an international tax lawyer/ company who are know both UK and Thai tax laws and get them to set things up properly for you such as PriceWaterhouse Coopers or similar
Agree to get international tax advice from knowledgeable firm. There is both personal and corporate tax implications as well as accounting issues across the entities involved.
Note, even if classified as non resident in Thailand (less then 180 days) one still owes tax on income earned in Thailand. This case is the classic justification for a split (on/off shore payroll).
TH
Yes of course, he will have Thai and UK sourced income, irrespective of the tax residency, therefore local tax would be payable in both cases, how much is payable is why you need someone who understands how to deal with working under 2 jurisdictions, if the UK leaves Europe and he works in Brussels he may have 3 jurisdictions to deal with, which if not done properly will get messy and most likely very expensive
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But is there a minimum numbers of days that I need to spend in Thailand to maintain my Work Permit?
I can't find anything on various web sites about a minimum period - but I've been told that it's 180 days minimum in country?
By whom have you been told this?
The 180 days (and also a need to pay tax in Thailand) came from our office HR Manager - but she did say she wasn't sure - so was going ask the external lawyer. But I wanted a quick answer as I need to discuss the UK role with our US head office tomorrow. So the answer's here are very helpful for me. I'll get formal advice before making any moves - but knew I could get a quick answer on TV to help me decide. I guess I may become liable for UK tax, which is unfortunate as I've been out of UK for so long I no longer needed to do UK Tax Returns. I'll be working in UK, Brussels and Thailand (if it all happens) - but keen to maintain Thailand Work permit as I'm the Director of the local business (and I like it here!). I currently only go to UK for family visits and work meetings - couple of weeks a year.
You will be paying tax in the UK almost certainly, if thats were they are basing you, if your not working in Thailand for periods you may not be liable for Thai tax, as like the UK, income tax is based on residency and there are reciprocal tax agreements in place between the UK and Thailand, given you will be working between multiple tax jurisdictions you need proper tax advice as it could bite you in the bum at some point
I would strongly recomend you consult an international tax lawyer/ company who are know both UK and Thai tax laws and get them to set things up properly for you such as PriceWaterhouse Coopers or similar
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Working remotely on Non Immigrant O (dependent)
in Thai Visas, Residency, and Work Permits
Posted
He could use his HK company as the basis to form a representative office in Thailand, with the HK office being the "head office"