tgeezer
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Neeranam : I think that I understand เจ่ากรรมนายเวร now. I have one observation, เจ้ากรรม is the spirit of some one whom we have wronged so thus must be dead. You translate "เราเองอาจจะเป็น..." as "You are also.... " I would say "we can also become a เจ้ากรรม.. ourselves..." People who hurt us in this life risk us becoming a เจ้ากรรม of theirs after we die.
Does this belief explain the extraordinary attendance at village funerals do you think?
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JHicks: As I said, we agree but explain differently,. My Cockney favourite glottal stop is "What?" which when criticized by a parent ," Don't say what" leaves the kid unsure whether the fault is in diction (wha')or grammar. I am from the Isle of Wight, our speech was influenced by Cockney visitors of whom there were many in the fifties.
If you want to understand my point of view you need to know that Thai books don't explain as you do. I have re discovered a book หลักภาษาไทย and see how the production of vowels is dealt with. Incidentally, I see that all vowels are ก้อง , vibrating vocal chords, which may be useful to new learners reading my posts.
On vowels the book says สระเสียงสั้น (รัสสระ)สระเสียงยาว (ทีฆสระ) . No special thing to be done to produce a short vowel, How do you stop a vowel cut off with a glottal stop becoming a แม่กก ending?
a,e,i,o,u, we are told in English. Do you see "i" as ไอ ? Is the "open i" not a diphthong to some degree? I see ไ more so than "i" .
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16 hours ago, Neeranam said:
Regarding Anonymous, I would offer ไม่ระบุชื่อ as authour unknown.
ไทย is an intersting word. I've heard some foreigners say that ผัดไทย means "fried freedom" ???? when it obviously(well to me as I used to teach Thai history at high school) means noodles of the people. ไท means คน, in the past Paw Piboonsongkhram invented Phad Tai ผัดไท in 1932 when Nationalism/Protectionism were rampant, especially among some of his cronies in Europe. It was to encourage Thais to not eat Chinese noodles, in an act of Deglobalisation, similar to Hitler and the car of the people, Volkswagen. many Pad Thai stall do omit the ย.
I see a verb, กลุมผู้ติดสุรานิรนาม Alcoholics who do not reveal their name. That works.
I didn't know that that dictator promoted Thainess with ผัดไทย . I see it as Thai fry up! I suppose that there was a ผัดจีน . There is a very good museum dedicated to Rama 7th and his wife near Sanam Luang. I learned that he came to England after he was reinstated as monarch in the thirties claiming that the government that replaced him was worse than absolute monarchy. But isn't that the stuff of revolutions, "The working class can kiss my ass I've got the boss's job at last." ...but I digress.
I asked about นิรนาม this morning and my mate said that when he encountered Anon. in literature, he thought, how lovely, a Thai author. Thai version would be กวีนิรนาม ผู้เขียนนิรนาม which I maintain wouldn't be used without the word anonymous, in the nature of Thai an explanation is required ไม่รู้ที่มา .
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JHicks: I am afraid that I have none of the tech. terms that you have because I haven’t studied English books. I think that we agree because you say that you don’t understand then put it in your own words! To me คำตาย means just that, I may be enunciating a glottal stop but I don’t see it in those terms.
I have just looked out a schoolbook หลักภาษาไทย to see if I can find glottal stop explained. . I haven’t found that but I was surprised to find คำเป็น and คำตาย explained, they have listed อำ ไ ใ เอา as คำเป็น, obviously the readers are not expected to be able to work it out!
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2 hours ago, JHicks said:
Well, I don't really see why it would be impossible to read but anyway I think the writing system always serves the spoken language and not the other way around. In other words, the rule that ไ can't have a final is telling us something - maybe something interesting - about the spoken language. Also, I don't know about your Thai friends but IME Thai speakers have a really hard time with English words like line or out, so I definitely think this restriction is built into their sound system. It's not surprising if it's reflected in the writing system, but I think it goes deeper than that.
I think you can simplify the rules even more and say a live syllable is one that doesn't have a stop. I'm not really getting that point though. The only relevance I can see is that the fact that ไ and ใ don't come in a short version with a built-in glottal stop means that they pattern with อำ, which is made up of a vowel and a live consonant ending, rather than with เอีย , เอือ and อัว, which are made up of two vowel sounds and do come in a short version with a glottal stop.
This is an interesting topic. When I first set out to explain the problem of ไม้ needing ไม้โท when we were taught that ไ is a short vowel I thought that I had to fudge it but as I wrote I saw that it was logical as I think you will agree.
When I first learnt, I was told that there were six endings k,p,t,m,n,g and it wasn't until I started reading Thai that I learned that there are three more แม่ก.กา , แม่เกอว, แม่เกย so the real answer to your question is ย is not in the family of แม่ กน is because it belongs to แม่เกย in fact the only child!
It doesn't come naturally to a native Thai speaker to say "line" because the ending comes before the closing consonant. Out is unnatural for similar reasons, แม่กด is not แม่ดา . Thais have to learn only that they must say dead endings live and they have no trouble. Italian makes it easy for them.
I think that it is more logical to define dead words because of the effect that they have on tones of low class consonants both with tone markers and without.
ไทย is an interesting word which I can't explain.
edit: I have just noticed that I said in my earlier post that ย ยักษ์ was a vowel symbol so the ending was live. I see from what I have written here that it is a closing consonant. That doesn't change the fact of it being a live ending but it does show that only in เอีย is ย a vowel symbol I think. The place where the "glide" from อี to อา produces ย .
I am relearning lots! -
56 minutes ago, Neeranam said:
I means anonymous, not so much that the name isn't known, but the person doesn't want others to know them, for example when donating something.
I found the Red Cross use it - anonymous clinic คลีนิคนิรนาม https://www.redcross.or.th/news/information/10144/
And also Alcoholics Anonymous - กลุ่มผู้ติดสุรานิรนาม https://mgronline.com/qol/detail/9510000153448
True, but are you making an interpretation? Anonymous means of unknown name, the reason is not the definition. Anon on a book means that the reader doesn't know his/her name. The name on the clinic is not in the role of an adjective. The name says that attendees will be คนนิรนาม. People see it as you do probably because นิรนาม used as an adjective has been used for many years in the translation of Alcoholics Anonymous. กลุ่มติดสุรานิรนาม .
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I think that I am being more simplistic in my approach. There is no such word as ไลน (ลัยน) probably because it is impossible to read.
The interest I have is how to read a word and how to say it. Tone where not indicated by tone marks is determined by dead or live syllables, there is only one rule; dead syllables are defined, live syllables are those which are not dead. So keeping things simple ไใ are not short vowels so the word ending in them is live. -
Sorry JHicks, I forgot the ย,ญ "problem."
The problem is that ย ยักษ์ is not a closing consonant but a vowel symbol. There are only nine pure vowels as you know but it seemed logical to show all the combinations as vowels: เอา (อะ+อว) ไ andใ (อะ+อย) อำ (อะ+ม) being wrongly called a short vowel shows that perhaps we should not call the others short vowels so for determining tones they are live. ไม้ เท้า etc.
Is there some linguistic explanation in that when some English speakers see the word Pattaya they find a อัย there or am I stretching things?Edit: Thinking on what I wrote over my porridge I see that I missed อัว (อุ+อะ)
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16 minutes ago, JHicks said:
I was talking about ญ - why would it become /n/ in final position when /y/ is already a valid final? I think the table is helpful in answering questions like that.
โฆษะ and อโฆษะ are the Sanskrit equivalents of ก้อง and ไม่ก้อง
หนัก and เบา are aspirated and unaspirated
ธนิต is a new one on me but turns out to be the Pali equivalent of หนัก
I don't get what you mean about tone 2.
I get "picked up" for my ต and I thought it was because my tongue was not on my teeth but it turned out to be that I wasn't vibrating my vocal cords enough. I meant tone 1 low tone, ต เต่า I like to feel that I am being more correct by saying เอก โท ตรี จัตวา !
ธนิต is in The Dictionary and the consonants are listed, it means aspirated apparently.
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นิรนาม ว ไม่รู้ว่าชื่ออะไร don't know what name. คนนิรนาม "person whose name the writer doesn't know". Anonymous you say but Thai has a good enough way of saying that without a word like นิรนาม don't you think?
I know เข็มขัดนิรภัย from the car handbook so นิรนาม meaning could be guessed if encountered in a sentence I think.
The Thai "alphabet" follows the same form as the Indic then. I don't think that there is any difference in pronunciation between ณ and. น in Thai but there may be for Thai Sanskrit scholars.
It has been a long time and I don't have my book with me here but I remember a few Thai and some Sanskrit equivalents , หนัก เบา ธนิต ? ก้อง ไม่ก้อง โฆษะ อโฆษะ I think that ก้อง is explained by: to vibrate the vocal chords as in บ ใบไม้ and I could never see how that wasn't to simply make it second tone. ต เต่า similarly. I can't remember the other terms or how they affect making the sounds. I think that I am better at enunciation now than I was when I was taught.
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On 12/12/2020 at 8:45 AM, Neeranam said:
My name - นิรนาม
A name doesn't have to mean anything Neeranam, I pointed out that the spelling you gave is a word whereas the English spelling indicates นีรนาม which has no meaning although it might be fun to give it a meaning, นีร- meaning นำ้ . นีรจร fish or other water creatures.
I must say chaps I do enjoy these posts, I am learning a lot. I am lucky in that although I am prevented from being in Bangkok I have you to discuss Thai with. I see that I have confused the posts somewhat, this is due to the fact that I also have someone willing to discuss Thai on the Facetime so naturally the questions I have come from all the current topics, I hope that it isn't too annoying.
I have some questions on the original piece by Benjawan Poonsan is anyone interested? -
I must have posted my correction of ขี้เหนียว under another topic heading, so since the error ขี้เหนี่ยว is in these comments, I post again.
I think that I have to be a little less precise, I can see how Coals to Newcastle, Is the Pope a Catholic and variations on that are alright.
I put too much emphasis on the original saying and the cultural aspect. I think that เต็มใจ speaks for itself but ไม่ควรถาม can be interpreted more freely. Longdo says "should", and I don't think that it means the same to everybody. Rather than "Don't ask because the answer is obvious" I see it as "Don't ask because it would be wrong to do so." I have learnt that พระ is a loose term for a monk but I don't think that it diminishes their status.
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It is difficult because I have not given all the information. The example I have given is from a textbook used for teaching Masters degree students at Chula, can we expect that it contains all the information necessary to identify the subject?
Here is the statement: หน้าที่สำคัญของคำบอกบุรุษ คือ บอกบทบาทในการสนทนาแต่คำบอกบุรุษบางคำมีความหมายกำกวมเพราะบอกบุรุษมากกว่า 1 อย่าง. เช่น It then goes on to list five examples of the six* pronouns which can be กำกวม thus, ; เรา, เขา, แก, พระองค์, ท่าน and เธอ.The students are in their late teens and know their language so I assume that they are familiar with sentence structure so the examples must illustrate the case it seems to me.
For example.....
Breaking off here because I have just been told that I expect too much from the book! As the part in brackets shows when written เค้า is used. So that's it. เขา is กำกวม so we are back to square one.
I just want people new to Thai to know that there is no wonderful mysterious thing here, the Thai language is inadequate to the purpose of communication in some respects, Thai people like it that way.
Ashelia knows what the case is and she has told us, without that information เขา is ambiguous in her example.
I take note of your observation KhaoNiaw and thank you for it but I doubt that you would want to "die on that hill" .
* As with all things in Thai language that number may well have changed, I have the fourth edition of the book and there are more!
Do I sound cynical? ......! -
7 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:
I don't think นะ necessarily indicates 1st person. It's usually pretty obvious from context if it's a 1st or 3rd person reference.
It must be obvious otherwise there would be a miscommunication. The example I gave เขาไม่รู้เรื่องเลยจริง ๆ นะ is an example of เขา in the 1st person, so the question is what is it in that example that makes it obvious to you that เขา means ผม/ดีฉัน ?
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1 hour ago, Neeranam said:
I also think it can mean there's no need to ask, when the answer is obvious.
I used it with a friend, He asked if was wanting to have a game of cards next week and I said ตักบาตรอย่าถามพระ he thought it was very funny and said it was in context.
Yes, people see things in different ways which I related somewhere, all the posts have merged in my mind now.
I have only the Thai dictionary for reference. So if you and your friend see " Is the Pope a Catholic" in ตักบาทร ย่าถามพระ so be it. -
This is interesting, but you must know that the modern form is to use the preposition "of" ; I should of written! I mention it only to show that language changes and even an expert linguist can't justify the changes. My appetite to know the difference between wrote and written is sated now, thanks.
I am surprised that people don't seem to be interested in the Thai cultural aspects of my posts or the interpretations. I know now that พระ is shorthand for ภิกษุ so my post was alright.
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I have just had a very nice chat with my interlocutor.
I liked his explanation of ตักบาทรอย่าถามพระ Monks are supposed to free themselves of desire so asking puts them in the position of making a choice which is to desire.
I wrote ขี้เหนี่ยว, the term is ขี้เหนียว . I looked it up too, เหนี่ยว รั้งไว้ etc. and saw it as hanging on to their money whereas it should have been money sticking to their fingers. Other interpretations are allowed!
His explanation of พุทธทาส is similar to mine.
For พันธุ in พันธุเมธา he saw พันธ์ species .
In มวยวัด , วัด can be seen as the noun. Temple fairs might have a boxing ring for people to take part in, they would be inexpert. It was interesting to learn that he hadn't seen วัด as a verb and perhaps it isn't. *
Your name นิรนาม is a word as well, ไม่รู้ว่าชื่ออะไร*มวยวัด is in my reply to the topic about street fighting.
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Thanks for doing that but I was interested in the past tense of write, wrote or written! I discover that they are both acceptable being derived from the archaic form writ. The major advantage that Thai has in being an "Isolating language" is that we don't have these problems.
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On 12/10/2020 at 6:06 PM, kokesaat said:
I happened across this in Lesson 16 of the Maani series.....a story of Maani and gang witnessing a brawl in the neighborhood while returning home from school. The accompanying photo in the story shows two men in fisticuffs.....described as 'ชกต่อยกัน'. The students' teacher goes on to explain how police are used to intercede in such affairs, then described as 'ทะเลาะกัน'. So, at least from this story, albeit dated, the two terms are used interchangeably.
Don't you feel that the teacher was underplaying it somewhat?
I have just encountered มวยวัด meaning to hit one another ไม่มีกติกา . In The dictionary กติกา is given the English equivalent word of "covenant"! That needs some context other than fighting I think.
วัด, the verb, is to flail with the arms, I suppose that มวยวัด (fight without rules) is also a possibility.
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17 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:
ค๊าาาบ is 'cute' way for a female to address a male. Also used when talking to children.
เค้า is used with loved ones with the first person meaning but that spelling is also quite common for both first and third person meanings in chat language, used for Line etc. I have one friend that always spells it that way in Line, referring to herself and others, and never uses เขา
I learnt that เต้า was spelled that way because people said it that way. I say เขา and so do my friends so never spell it that way but from this book:
ไวยากรณ์ไทย by นววรรณ พันธุเมธา2. เขา เป็นคำบอกบุรุษที่1 เช่น เขา(มักเขียนกันว่า เค้า) ไม่รู้เรื่องเลยจริงๆ นะ
Likely to be spelt this way when writing together. My understanding of that is where it is obvious that the writer is referring to themselves than เต้า means ฉัน
It is a stretch because one could easily be saying that He really doesn't know what is going on at all, unless นะ indicates 1st person and I suspect that it does. -
It depends on how you interpret it. Giving alms is a duty, the monk needs it to live, so it is wrong to ask if he want it. The explanation doesn't refer to religion.
If you are going to give something to someone who will be happy to receive it (needs it) don't ask them if they want it. If you ask a Thai, shall I pay for this meal they don't say yes please, they leave it "up to you".
Westerners tend to not know this principle which may explain the expression พรั่งขี้เหนี่ยว
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Returning to language if I may.
Neeranam , does your name have a Thai spelling?
13 hours ago, Neeranam said:Interesting. I found out that รังควาน means ผีที่ประจำช้างป่า( spirit of a wild elephant).
On a side note, do you have any idea why ภิกษุ is transliterated as Bhikku? Maybe an alternative spelling. I'm not really a Buddhist but did do a retreat in the 90's for 10 days at Wat Suan Mohk, the temple of the revered monk Buddhadassa Bhikku พุทธทาสภิกขุ
That is the second definition of รังควาน as a noun ผีที่ประจำช้างป่า, ผีตายร้ายที่สิงอยู่ในคนได้
In the piece you posted I think that a verb is required ...ตามรังควาญเพื่อ....
I chose ภิกษุ suspecting that I should have *written พระ because as I understand it บวช is what a ภิกษุ is doing, which would mean that he is not a full monk.
พุทธทาสภิกขุ is a proper name and as you know names are chosen. ทาส is servant or one who chooses to surrender his power to something else, slave is common usage, and ภิกขุ is another spelling of ภิกษุ
Why would ภิกขุ be chosen? Anybody's guess, mine is that in This context, he wasn't always a senior monk and never will be The พระ . Like an Archbishop might refer to himself as Servant of God.
The man who formulated the Thai grammar in 1918 AD was พระยา Prince อุปกิตศิลปสาร อุป close to, กินตี praise ศ ลป skill สาร substance of the story. Those are just my guesses.
The writer of my modern grammar book has the family name พันธเมธา her father was a professor. พันธ์ to be bound เมธา = ความรู้ ฉลาด it sounds academic, in the way that พุทธทาสภิกขุ is religiousOther people are entitled to see it in other ways.
*edit: Replaced wrote with written, both sound alright to me but may as well try to learn some English while I am here! Does anyone know which is correct and why?
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Thanks for posting, it kept me off You Tube and the US election farce for some time, in fact I haven't gone back to it yet. I would love to discuss some of the translations with you, and others of course. I remember the writer, also Mary Haas of about the same era, dictionaries and instructional books being their business.
I have been looking for รังควาญ not in The dictionary, but was told that it means รำคัญ รบกวน etc. To trouble someone or bring trouble. Having worked out that in a battle the mahoot's position was not the best place to be so to be given that role (รังควาญ)might be seen as less than favourable. I discovered that the spelling is wrong and รังควาน is in The dictionary ก. รบกวนทำรำคัญหรือเดือดร้อน !
A Friend told me that unlike what he believed of America, a Buddhist doesn't need a personal analyst because they knew that all trouble and hardship can be explained and purged by ทำบุญที่วัด
Visiting วัด is something I find myself doing frequently with friends every time we go up country. I have learned to act naturally in a วัด. The discipline required in church is not necessary there I find. When after some time, the pain I was experiencing in trying to stay in the cross legged position I had decided to adopt out of reverence and to fit in was noticed by the ภิกษุ, he broke off from his words of wisdom and advised me to change position. Very thoughtful of him I felt.
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13 hours ago, Ashelia said:
The comment is from IG and the person commenting is a girl and she's commenting the pic posted by her bf of them together. I did a little research and I found that saying Kao (her) is also used to address oneself when speaking to a loved one. So I think she's using Kao as a term of endearment. So the whole thing would mean "Do you miss me?" in a loving way. But I'm confused why she typed "Kap" instead of "Ka". Maybe in colloquial terms the Kap/Ka are interchangeable?
Which shows how pointless it can be sometimes trying to assign meanings to conversations between third persons.
It could be a strange term of endearment but also, เค้า can refer to the speaker without changing its meaning if you translate it as "the girl in the picture" especially if you consider that it was a different time then เค้า could mean the girl and the circumstances depicted.
ครับ is good manners, there is no need for formality between them so ค๊าาาบ . As I said in an earlier post, a middle aged lady golfer uses คร๊ , she could be trying to avoid formality for all I know.
เจ้ากรรมนายเวร Spiritual Creditor
in Thai Language
Posted
JHicks: Two topics running together here.
In re reading หลักภาษาไทย
Did you see that the textbook says that all สระ are เสียงก้อง? I made a point of it.
Later in ลักษณะของเสียงพยัญชนะ item 2. มีทั้งเสียงก้อและไม่ก้อง item 3. พยัญชนะไม่สามารถออกเสียงตามลำพังได้ ต้องอาศัยเสียงสระช่วย จึงจะสามารถออกเสียงได้ เช่นใช้ สระ ออ ออกเสียง กอ ขอ คอ งอ
How does this compare with your understanding of the character of Thai?