kuma
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On 12/27/2023 at 7:24 PM, newnative said:
Umm. 'Glossy brochures' ? Welcome to the 1980s--I remember my real estate agent sister doing glossy brochures way back then. Ahh, the good old days. Here in the 21st century, agencies will not only post properties on their websites, with descriptions and photos, but some are also producing videos. With our last property sale, at least four of the bigger agencies sent their videography team out to produce a video, hosted and narrated by one of the agents. This in addition to a number of them sending their phtographer for photos.
If you think it's a breeze to do one of these videos and there's no work involved, think again. The process with some of the videos took several hours or more, usually with a walk-thru either the day before or earlier in the day before the video team arrived, to learn about the property and prepare the narration. In one case they came back a second time to do early evening lighting. After watching the process several times, my spouse and I both decided we would end up tongue-tied messes trying to smoothly move through the house while on camera while trying to remember everything to talk about and highlight. If a video looks easy and effortless, a lot of work was involved behind the scenes.
A well-produced video, made available on the agency website and sometimes also on Youtube, can be a good selling tool for a property. It can also be helpful to give a buyer a better look at a property than just photos, before actually going to see it. If a property doesn't suit after watching the video, the agent and buyer can move on and not waste a trip. Also helpful to pre-screen potential properties to look at before a buyer arrives in town to save time--and appointments can be set up in advance. All work, and nothing lazy me wants to do.
By the way, there's absolutely nothing wrong with an agency using a client's photos. Along with a detailed description, I always send good photos that show my property well and I am happy if an agency uses them. Some do, while others prefer to send their own photographer to do the photos--or, as I said, a video, as well.
Chance here to make a plug for people that know agencies that put in decent effort. I have always used agents back home and had one in particular, who I partnered with for 17 years - who was very diligent and put in maximum effort on every transaction (sales, rentals) and as such she was a top 2% realtor in Canada, with re-max, so no slouch to get in that rarefied air. Perhaps that is my trouble, I was maybe spoiled by her professionalism, and cannot bring myself to pay more here, for what on average, is far far less service.
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On 12/27/2023 at 4:39 AM, scubascuba3 said:
i would try to sell on facebook marketplace for 0%, agents do the same anyway, get professional photos done, and don't forget to remove the mop, agents do
I am looking at listing as a freelancer, whats to lose - I am not in a big rush and I just cannot countenance a 70% increase in cost - I dont see the value proposition.
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On 12/27/2023 at 7:12 AM, OneMoreFarang said:
I think a huge problem in Thailand is the fact that it seems everybody can be a "property agent". I.e. a laundry shop in our condominium has papers with property pictures from within the building in their window. Ask her about one of those properties and she wants to full 3% commission from the owner - without any property expertise.
Same thing with some people who work in the building management, security guards, etc.
I sold a property in Europe. The professional property agent had lots of expenses to sell my property. I.e. he hired a professional company with laser measurement system to measure the property exactly so that later there was no issue if it was 120 sqm or maybe only 118.3 sqm.
He advertised and showed many people around the property, he paid for energy efficiency analysis and all these things. All for a fixed commission.
In Thailand: I want 3% - for almost no work at all.
So maybe ask the agents what they will do to sell your property to the highest bidder and how they will find those people. Instead of telling you that you should lower the price so that he can sell it to the first person who asks.
Much of this resonates. It seems there is very little in terms of effort expended, yet the 3 to 5% fee increase is a 70%!! increase in costs - amazing. I too have used agents back in NA to manage my properties that I rented, and then to sell them. Indeed they do quite a bit of work and there is effort expended - and the rate is most times split between two agents (not really the case here) and is lower as well as graduated based on selling price, as per examples below:
- In the Greater Victoria Region, the commission rates for both buyer and seller agents are 3% on the first $100,000 of the home price and 1.5% on the remaining total.
- In Kelowna, buyer and seller agents charge 3.5% on the first $100,000 of the home price and 1.75% on the remaining total.
- In Nanaimo, the commission rates of both buyer and seller agents are 3.5% on the first $100,000 of the home price and 1.5% of the remaining total.
- In White Rock, the realtor commissions are 3.5% on the first $100,000 of the home price and 1.25% on the remaining total.
OP above mentioned how the standard here is take some photos, post to FB and wait for a buyer to appear. The suggestions of graduated commission on price, payment based on time scale, all seem to be interesting and have a merit based approach as part of the deal. Not sure that is something that is of interest in this market.
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Happy holidays:
What experience have members had with Sales Agents and the % fee they charge for selling your home / condo?
My understanding is that 3% is the norm, that for sure has been my experience for a long time now.
Some people are telling me there are agents now asking for 5%, which would be a 67% increase in fees....what is that!?
Have any others run into this?
Cheers
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On 12/20/2023 at 11:57 AM, Mike Lister said:Just one point, the government is not impoverished, some people are saying it is but there's no proof of that, all the evidence is to the contrary. Exports, tourism, government debt, reserves, they are all in very very positive territory so linking this tax initiative with impoverishment is inappropriate. The IMF is actually urging them to increase deficit spending to build out infrastructure, in other words, borrow more! That is not to say they wont blow their current position with these 10k giveaways which could turn the whole thing on its head.
The realties are that the tax net in Thailand is the smallest one in ASEAN and the numbers have been falling for years. Revenue from direct taxation is less than 2% of the budget whereas in the West it is in excess of 35%. The stated desire has long been to increase the number of people in the net, now they are extended the size of the net as well. But it will be several years before any real financial benefit is seen, by which time the current financial giveaway proposals will be history.
IMO the % of tax is under no obligation to increase to the levels in the "corrupted west", governments which,which use the tax base now to grift from and support their favourite causes, from which they also grift from.
The Thai people are a very cohesive nation and also compromised of very rugged, self reliant, individual/family minded people and they should keep their government minimal and continue the self reliance - as opposed to the increasingly hope less populations in the cw, that now seem to only know how to use narrative to defect any and all responsibility off their shoulders, with hands out non stop and looking around bewildered, wondering why government does not take care of absolutely everything in their lives ....ok rant off
The direct taxation of revenue of in excess of 35% in the cw, is NOT A GOAL to attain, it is a scourge to be avoided. I hope the Thai nation/civilization reach that same conclusion.
Happy holidays
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7 hours ago, Danderman123 said:
I am transferring money from the US to my Thai bank account, in tranches less than $10,000 per transfer.
For some 2024 expenses (like hotels), I can use a US credit card, and that shouldn't be treated as an incoming transfer, I hope. I guess I can use a US credit card at the supermarket.
The hope is by not transferring money into Thailand in 2024, I can stay in the country, but not be considered a tax resident.
If you stay more than 180 days in a calendar year you are a deemed tax resident, it matters not whether you import funds during that period
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38 minutes ago, ukrules said:
Does this mean that a foreign currency account is kind of classed as an off shore type account?
What I mean is - lets say I remit a bunch of money into a USD account and only make monthly transfers into Baht as I need them - are they going to tax every cent deposited into the USD account regardless of whether I actually change it into Baht or not?
And the questions keep piling up. In my case, if I transfer foreign currency here, it is held in an escrow account and the only way I can use it is to convert it to THB and deposit it to my account. I can take up to two years to decide when I want to convert it - but I cannot transfer it back out, it must be converted. I use that as a way to keep a reserve and take advantage of favourable currency swings when/if they occur - with the funds here I can convert it in under two minutes. But now I wonder what the PTB are going to deem as funds transferred to Thailand,.....
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4 hours ago, Guavaman said:
For what it's worth, when I transfer funds from my Bangkok Bank US dollar account to my Thai Baht account, it shows as FTT = foreign transfer, which is actually a loophole in the 65k monthly income requirement of immigration.
For example, one could transfer a lump sum into a dollar account here before Jan. 1st, and then simply transfer 65k each month from the dollar account to a Baht account to show immigration.
Thanks for that, very interesting. I cant remember last time I ever looked at a statement, now will for sure and see if the last conversion I did was treated as such.
So does it mean that if you bring some other currency here before Jan 1, you also need to convert it to THB prior to Jan 1, or it will be considered an FTT when one decides to convert it - for the purposes of this new tax regime? Depending on the currency, this month not maybe the best time to convert....
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2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:
1. The mental contortions some people are putting themselves through are worth reading for the amusement factor..
2. The extrapolation from the initial announcement is worthy of a Thai Soap scriptwriter.
3. Whilst being midly amused, I hang around waiting for a definitive announcement from the RD.
If anyone is looking for a nice chilled out place to have lunch, I can recommend this place.
I'll let you try and work out where it is, it will stop you fretting about the RD
you are sure throwing rocks from a glass house...maybe the one above? Your inane banter on this thread makes me think you are one of the cyclist types that always triggers other road users into wanting to run them down, lol. If you think you are contributing some gold to the thread, uh no...imo.
enjoy the evening
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6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:I have not found anything either - but I would seek professional advice first - after Thai RD has provided their 'clarifications and exemptions'.
There are a LOT of Thais working overseas who send money home as a 'gift' to their Thai family - they are also asking for clarification. The list of people asking for 'clarification' on this matter is very large.
Yet again, Thai 'authorities' have jumped in head first and broken their necks on the hidden rocks just below the surface - it is amazing how often that they do this - when a simple 'look and feel' would have shown some of the potential problems - it is almost like it is 'genetic' - they just dont seem to want to know about any potential problems, when they get an idea. Actually, I do know this one - I just recalled about a mate who was employed as a consultant and in one meeting the Boss sais 'lets do this'. He was about to say something when he realsied that he should not - and no one else said anything contradictatory either - it was just 'accepted'. Needless to say it was all a cluster***** and the Boss just 'walked away'.
The 'process' is not a bug its a feature, imo. They save untold millions on consultants and 1000, nay 1,000,000s of hours of effort (net of work to analyze all the input), system wide, by throwing out these policies, partially conceived, to the populace - then sit back and scoop absolutely tons of free input, from so many perspectives. It actually allows for low cost lobbying to occur, as all this feedback is grass roots generated and - using this forum as an example (NOT saying they would refer to this forum, but they are getting loads of input from affected Nationals, etc, online) virtually free for individuals to raise a voice. So flipping it on its head, this is a more democratic and equal method for people to have their voices heard - as opposed to say the absolutely corrupted lobbyist models that exist in much of the world...where special interests w deep pockets and few morals have a stranglehold on how policy will be formed.
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13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:
I can't see for one moment that foreign currency already in the country should be an issue, it's the date of transfer into the country that's important, not the currency..
In an earlier time, I would not even have bothered to mention it - but this world has fallen so precipitously that I can very easily seeing that being made a condition. They are free to do so if they so if desired - it would be an error imo but that is hardly considered as a factor anymore.
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1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:
What is the downside of transferring your funds before January 1?
One that i wonder about is if the funds transferred have to be converted from USD/GBP/EUR etc to THB before Jan 1 as well? I usually bring funds here and they can sit in an account until such time as I want to convert - up to two years. I hope thoise funds are considered already here" and not treated as not yet landed since they have not been converted....
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On 12/10/2023 at 11:13 AM, Morch said:
Yeah, that's where I am now, in terms of thinking.
Plus all this hopping about is maybe more fitting for those who aren't married, no families here, no pets. house etc.
Unless one is a very high earner, it doesn't make sense and would cost more (not to mention the trouble).
Not happy about being forced to pay, but such is life. Even relocating to some other destination comes with extra costs, probably a few years worth of new tax requirement payments.
As Roy Orbison said, 'You bite the bullet, then you chew it'.
Anyway, if it would turn out to be a disaster scaring masses of foreigners away, it wil eventually be amended.
As was mentioned much earlier in the thread by an OP, this could cut the legs out from under the property market, as foreign buyers would have to pay tax on funds imported to buy a condo...that is a large and politically powerful constituency that cannot be too thrilled with this idea
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5 hours ago, Eudaimonia said:
Here's my action plan. Maybe this is helpful to someone, or someone can point out mistakes. I am not in retirement age yet but live off investments abroad, so this change certainly affects me.
I have a portfolio of stocks from different countries. I now set up a new broker account and moved all my US stocks and ETFs there. Selling and buying back shares that have appreciated realised all capital gains so they will not be taxed later.
The main reason to have two accounts is that dividends from various countries have different withholding taxes. For example, the UK and Singapore are 0%. Those would be taxed when remitted to Thailand after 1.1.2024. That is why it is best to have separate accounts.
The US withholding tax for Thailand tax residents is 15%. I already have a Thai tax ID, which I have sent to my broker, so they apply the double tax agreement and withhold 15% tax from my US dividends.
Calculating Thai personal income rates using the progressive levels (5-35%), I see that the overall tax rate rises to roughly 15% at around 1.4 million baht. I plan to remit up to 1.4 million per year and use a withholding certificate from my broker to prove that I have already paid 15%. I expect to attach proof of the withholding tax paid and be able to claim it as a credit (The Revenue Department has promised they will amend the tax forms for this). That means there should be little or no Thai tax to pay.What if 1.4 million baht is not enough in the future? Maybe I need to buy something expensive. Luckily, according to the latest order No. 162/2566, the new rules will not apply to income earned before 1.1.2024.
Before the end of this year, I will transfer some funds to a new offshore bank account that is ring-fenced for remittance purposes. In January, I will send some of that money to my Thai bank account, and as pre-2024 earnings it will not be taxed. So, I have some savings as a buffer. It is possible to remit that pre-2024 money later as well, but if the offshore account accrues any interest, that interest part would be taxable in Thailand. We do not yet know how such mixed funds will be treated.
(If I sent more money to my Thai account now, in December, it would be assessable income because I have earned it this year. That has always been the case, according to the old law. So I have to wait until 2024.)
My other broker account, with non-US stocks, will never be used to send anything to Thailand. I can use those funds when staying abroad. At this point, they will not be assessable income in Thailand. However, even that might change in the future. Therefore, it is best to sell (and buy back) those shares now as well to realise the capital gains before 2024.
Does this sound like a feasible plan? Have I missed anything?
Too much account juggling for me but it is a reasonable plan.,except there are no details in stone yet about what the plan is so it could all be for naught. Hope it works out for you. I am not going to set up more accounts just to navigate all this - the hassle of account opening can be even worse. See what 2024 brings. Cheers
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1 hour ago, Morch said:
I think this topic might be the short version....
https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/newlaw/dn162A.pdf
In Thai so get a friend to help you if required.
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1 hour ago, JoeyMac said:
Cany anyone summarise what is going to happen ?
Thailand | Tax & Legal | 24 November 2023
TAX Alert
Foreign source income Tax Update under The
Revenue Department's Instruction
No. Paw.162/2566 ("Paw. 162")
In September, TRD released Paw.161, indicating its intention to impose Personal Income
Tax (PIT) on foreign-sourced income, generated in any calendar tax year, and brought
into Thailand from calendar tax year 2024 onward. However, with the introduction of
Paw.162, TRD has reevaluated its previous position presented in Paw.161. The revised
focus is on collecting taxes from foreign-sourced income generated on or after January
1, 2024. Given this change, taxpayers need to engage in careful planning, including
determining whether the income meets the definition of assessable income subject to
Thai taxation, deciding when to bring in foreign-source income, and developing
strategies to distinguish between income generated before and after January 1, 2024-
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17 hours ago, stat said:
If you are currently tax resident in TH I would recommend liquidating those shares. The only thing you can lose is the spread and comission. You can rebuy the next second if you want to. The potential tax upside is enormous. Good luck!
So lol most of the shares I hold are under water rn, does that mean I can claim the loss and get a refund with this new proposed tax regimen? Or is it a case of 'we are interested in your gains not your losses, you get to keep those'?
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1 hour ago, ukrules said:
Indeed, this was alarming and would possibly catch a lot of people out if implemented, especially people who bought a house as a primary residence say 20 to 30 years ago for next to nothing compared to the current 'value' and sell it now to fund their retirement.
There's zero tax on that in the UK as it's the house you lived in all your life as opposed to an investment property. Nobody will want to pay any tax on that money in Thailand so if they know about it they simply will not come - unless they plan it as follows they might fall into a trap and be liable :I might bring a reasonably large amount of money into Thailand at some point in the next couple of years. Lets say 10 million Baht although it could be more.
In order to do this I would need to sell some of my long term holdings which date back at least a decade, this will be a very profitable sale and there will be no tax paid anywhere.
For me the only way to ensure zero tax is paid on this would be to be non resident (<180 days) in Thailand during the year that I do the following :
1 - Sell the assets to get the 10 million Baht equivalent in USD2 - Remit it to Thailand via wire transfer
All while being non resident - the key part is that you need to be non resident in both the year when you sell it (realise the profit) and the year when you remit it, with a little planning, two 90 day trips plus a long weekend somewhere else I could do that in one year and proving it would be simple. Passport stamps would prove non residence and asset sale / wire transfer records would prove profit made and remitted while non resident during the same year.
Now that's a lot of hassle but it would save a whole chunk of tax. It is tax avoidance (a healthy practice for any man), not evasion.
I think I got that right.
Another concern is that they might want to tax the rest of my money made outside of Thailand as they are looking to tax global income in the future - which sounds like a pipedream and I will be very surprised if it ever happens, but if it does then that is going to be a problem as I'm definitely never going to stop making money outside of Thailand and I'm not going to pay them any tax on that if I don't bring it here - not a chance. I will incorporate to avoid that and nothing will belong to me if they take this step.
Also I don't mind paying some tax on the money I use for day to day living but I won't be sending 100k Baht a month any more, in the future that would be reduced to 50k a month resulting in a negligible (21,500 Baht) tax bill for me.
What document did you refer to to come up with 21,500thb of tax on 600K of inward remittance? Cheers
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2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:
But that is exactly what you have been doing over the course of this thread.
Well blow me down with a feather. I suppose that big black cloud of negativity drowning you, stopped you seeing that the potential negatives migh not even happen.
Yes, you could be. And you might have been better waiting for official advice to come from the RD, before making 270 posts of negativity, with a liberal dash of doom & gloom.
That's just me though, glass half full rather than glass half empty kinda guy.
being frustrated by a "potentially" impactful change in financial status, on Dec 7, when the change is due to implement on Jan 1, is not being unreasonable, imo. Wait for official advice...? there are only 16 working days left before this comes into effect and people need time to absorb it, understand impact, discover alternatives, make choices and then implement decisions....what is your turn around on that? What is the timing you need to understand from the RD what are the ROTR, and accomplish those tasks? If you can do it in a meaningful way in the days left in 2023, then I suspect a lot of companies may be interested in your skill set - or if its just that you are not cognizant of the steps, then well they would'nt be. A thinking person with options has a lot to get thru once the policy is formulated and delivered, in detail.
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3 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:
With apologies to Dr. Niebuhr:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;courage to change the things I can;
... and the option to get out of the country before my 180 days are up if I can't tell the difference.
Good point. I guess in 2024, if the new regs are too unfavourable, one has the option to get out by June 28ish and chill somewhere else for 6 months, whether one can or not is a very individual decision.
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10 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:
Nothing to do with the average Joe mate. Carry on as usual until you see a duck cross your path, all I see and have been seeing is dead ducks.
Like I said before and posted a link to the Double Tax Agreement (DTA) that Australia has with Thailand, it was agreed that Ozzie Citizens who paid tax in Oz, won't pay tax in Thailand, visa versa, so we are covered, that said, depending on how your structured, e.g. bank account in Oz, withholding tax paid, so you won't be taxed, share portfolio, dividends and sales of shares (Dividends fully franked, already taxed) so no tax to be paid in Thailand, sale of shares are not subject to capital gains tax in Australia if you are a non resident, so the sale of those shares go into your bank account and you don't remit it here.
I wonder if the actual legislation will also exempy cap gains taxes...ie are they trying to replicate (as much as possible) the tax regimes of countries they sign DTA with? Or are they looking for pools of income that they can tax - claiming that since your country does not tax you , we will? If there is to be an increase in tax like ths, there has to be additional services/privileges offered to long term residents, not just here pay more, everything else is static...imo
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On 12/5/2023 at 9:53 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:
These are some quesations that I would like answered by Thai RD. This is based upon an Expat that stays 180+ days, and does not earn any money in Thailand, and remits money into Thailand from overseas. Anyone know how to ask them?
Does a long term Expat have to lodge an annual tax return from 2024 tax year onwards, in order to 'prove' that the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year, is not taxable or is exempt under an existing DTA ?
Can an Expat 'decide' that they do not have to lodge a return from 2024 tax year onwards, because they believe that the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year is not taxable or is exempt under an existing DTA ?
Can an Expat 'decide' that they do not have to lodge a return from 2024 tax year onwards, because they have calculated that some/all of the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year is 'taxable income', but it is below the Thai tax free threshold (with or without Allowances and Deductions) and therefore payment of income taxes is not required ?
Will/Does the Thai RD provide an English speaking (plus maybe Japanese, Korean, Chinese etc) call centre or service, whereby Expats as detailed above, can call and seek advice regarding their obligations to lodge income tax returns.
My position is and has been clear from the start - this is a very serious matter and discussing it and expressing opinions is not 'fear mongering'. If some people only erver want to hear good news and are wearing rose coloured glasses, then they should just stay away. This new income tax rule means that unless Thai RD answers those questions above positively in our favour, then all Expats are going to be 'expected' to complete annual tax returns and pay income taxes if the Thai RD deems that applicable. BUT - that has not been confirmed or denied by Thai RD - they are not answering our questions.I have tried contacting them in a few provinces to get some more details, but response has been scant. We found some online content where people were discussing the implications, I will post it if I can get the link again (in Thai) but it also left many questions unanswered. It is a significant topic and the rollout is lacking - so hopefully there will be some more time added to the clock to get things better sorted.
But this has got me off my butt and made a visit to Cambodia, next up is Laos then Vietnam...they are spots I used to visit more frequently and its about time I did again any way. Siem Reap has certainly changed in the past 13 years. Perhaps one of them have a similar program and there can find out how it works in those jurisdictions, among other things.
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Wow, the sports league with some of the most entertaining content,never gets any love. Lol, an all Canadian outcome really.
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So GC110 is on next Sunday (19th)
Does anyone know of any places that will have a gathering to see the game?
Cheers
Winnipeg Blue Bombers vs Montreal Alouettes, first meeting between these two teams in Grey Cup history, imagine that.
What are most Russians doing here and how are they financing themselves?
in ASEAN NOW Community Pub
Posted
Yup, Bob is a walker, no doubt.