UKresonant
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Posts posted by UKresonant
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24 minutes ago, proton said:
How does this million baht a year un taxed gift to the Mrs work? and how can you prove its a gift rather than expenses for the family for a year.
Headline;-
Can gift up to THB 20 million to spouse (option for 5% tax).
She can't use it for property purchase (most likely), and it must be a true gift. Interest on the gift will be taxable.
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29 minutes ago, topt said:
Sorry but maybe the late hour but can you elucidate at all on this? I know there is a way you can forgo your PA and not pay tax on UK divis etc but I thought you still had to pay on rental income irrespective?
This is just DTA digest and for Thailand has been reported many times (by me) showing no relief for private or state pension so not sure of the relevance - other than if trying to claim a credit somewhere?
Sorry, the point I was trying to make was more towards the possibilities of a NT tax code so pensions and the like are not taxed at source in the UK ( recent post context and also compared with Germany, which seems more absolute perhaps ).
Not sure about rental Income...from memory.
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Double Taxation Treaty Relief Application for relief at source from United Kingdom (UK) Income Tax and claim to repayment of UK Income Tax For use by an individual resident of a country with which the UK has a double taxation treaty that provides for relief from UK Income Tax on pensions, purchased annuities, interest or royalties arising in the UK
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Part C To apply for relief at source from UK Income Tax, please complete Parts C.1, C.2, C.3 or C.4 as appropriate.
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Part F
I am beneficially entitled to the income from the sources included in this form or otherwise meet the conditions for relief in the double taxation treaty between the UK and my country of residence...... {comment NOT THAILAND]
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DT-Individual Notes (from)
2. Purpose of the form DT-Individual Form DT-Individual allows you to apply under the DT treaty between the UK and your country of residence for relief at source from UK Income Tax on pensions, purchased annuities, royalties and interest paid from sources in the UK.
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Part 😄 Application for relief at source from UK Income Tax As explained in these Notes, the UK’s DT treaties with other countries may provide for: • no UK tax to be withheld from payments of pensions and annuities • no UK tax to be withheld or a reduced rate of UK tax to be withheld, from payments of interest and royalties Give the details asked for in Part C to apply for relief at source from UK Income Tax on future payments of income. Relief at source may be available in cases where HMRC is able to exercise its discretion to issue a notice (under Statutory Instrument 1970 Number 488, as amended). We deal with each application on its merits. Where we cannot agree to allow relief at source or cannot arrange it, you can claim repayment of part or all of the UK tax taken off, as appropriate.
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Part C.2: Work pensions and purchased annuities Enter details in Part C.2 if you receive a pension or purchased annuity from the UK. Most DT treaties provide for pensions and purchased annuities from the UK to be paid to a resident of the other country without UK tax taken off. The DT Digest gives information about whether relief from UK tax is available and if there are any special rules.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf
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Column OTHER PENSIONS / ANNUITIES
As you have said Thailand = "No relief" (Just reclaim in some circumstances)
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6 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:
Hahaha, okay buddy, at least that was funny!
Anyway, I will move to the Phillipines and don't have to file income tax but thanks for the offer. 😅
That's probably one of the few in region good options from a tax point of view, especially with the suggested by some, that some want Thailand to perhaps move to Global taxation. UK folks even get their state pensions yearly increases there, where they don't officially in Thailand.
Won't you miss the Thai food?
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56 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:
UK says you can be regarded as non-resident and won't be taxed in the UK so I think this was the best example as Germany doesn't allow that and taxes you regardless if you are resident or non-resident.
Yes that is true, it is not an absolute.
Info for others;-
There is a clause that can allow it, depending on what the tax folk decide. But generally if you have been in the UK most of your life, and have just moved to Thailand, since NT code availability may be difficult to obtain. Almost certainly UK .gov pensions no NT code.
Country specific info (search for)Form 'DT-individual' and the associated DT digest 2018
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Just noticed, and I think it is curious and perhaps something to consider is UK state pension does not appear to fall under Section 40 1), perhaps the US is similar?
https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section40
Section 41 para 2, A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.
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Info;-
Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.
(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.4
4R.CT.No.29/2538
There is the other sources threshold at 60k THB
But the one for section 40 is 120k THB
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40 minutes ago, topt said:
Not a good example as even if non resident in the UK if you are being paid a pension there, and your total income is above the tax free allowance, you will still be taxed on that amount. I know this unfortunately for a fact........
Yes, and additionally the suggestion that not taxed as not resident, suggests other than state pension. Most UK private pensions would normally retain tax at source in the UK even if a NoTax at source was claimed whilst being resident of Thailand.
Can't get an NT code for State Pension, and no relief available.
(As I understand it, excepting the discretion clause).
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19 minutes ago, TigerCat said:
How much is a "too large a bank account"?
"easy peasy. I have 5 different bank accounts. How many do you have.?"
I have 4. But if a person has a lot in each account, maybe there are still over a "trigger" amount.
I was wondering if there is a "trigger" amount, but I can't find anything online about it.
I've tried to find trigger amounts for inbound remittance, (I remember a thread years ago, and at that time inbound of about THB 40k that could potentiallyflag something).
Could only find a threashold of 400 deposits totalling more than 2 million Baht. Every inboand must have a 'purpose' code reported, but not sure if it is individual reported or bulked up and reported to BOT.
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28 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:
Let's hope they won't be flagging & questioning every non-resident/tourist for example, who remits money to buy a condo and then later retires and becomes a resident.
The ones I worry about are potential tourists that stumble into being cumulatively more than 179 days (as there home country is 183 days perhaps, or got run over on a pedestrian crossing just before going to the airport on day 177) have done a large tax exempt transaction in home country, remitted proceeds to Thailand buy a condo, fund 800k plus living expenses, and by some Random chance get tax audited by Thai RD.
But hopefully no one will be caught out that way...
Thailand can make a fantastic first impression, which may distract from due diligence.
There is still obsolete information in the WWW
Probably not the objective of condo sales to flag tax concerns.
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1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:
So, he is saying the millions of tourists who remit monies to Thailand will have to go to RD and prove that they were not a tax resident? Where is he getting this from?
Of course the 2024 tourist will not, when under 179 days. But say that tourist has a Thai Bank account and remitted say 1M THB in 2024, and in 2025 was Tax resident spending 244 days, and did file Q1 2026 for 2025. I would anticipate that they may enquire as to why no tax filed for 2024. Especially as they only remitted THB 400k in 2025.
The larger remittance in 2024 would flag, but I have no idea what the flag level is now or whether it is fixed dynamic or even random.
I'm updating my 'days where' spreadsheet and will record on there days at any time as part of a day when in Thailand or non UK countries, and every day present at the end of the day for UK days. Keep boarding passes stamps etc
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1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:
For the sake of an easy to understand example: What about the extreme case of a UK person who earns GBP 12,749 Pounds in the UK, all of which is not taxable in the UK but they file a UK self assessment regardless. When those funds are remitted to TH, the remitters TEDA are limited to THB 60k Personal Care Allowance plus the 150k zero rated band, which (at 45) totals THB 210k or 4.6K Pounds. That means 12,749 - 4,666 Pounds are liable to Thai tax, THB 363,700, 150k @ 5% and 213,700 @ 10% . Agreed also?
Yes that is about it
UK Personal allowance is £12570 (still frozen at that for a few years) and I could make it more extreme by for example adding Individual savings account dividends of say £1430 per annum, on which there is no tax.
So perhaps comparing £14000 which is not Taxed in the UK, against the under 65 allowance of as you say THB 201K £4600. So £9400 potentially exposed to Thai Tax where it is tax free in the UK ( unless Thai RD expand on the vague statements on If Taxed in home country and if there is a DTA, don't worry 😊)
So say £24000 remitted to Thailand (and to simplify that was all income)
£10000 attracting tax at 20% in the UK (So in Theory there would be a £2000 credit relief).
In Thailand £24000 gross
£4600 not Taxed
150k @ 5% £3333 ~ £166 tax (th)
200k @ 10% £4444 ~ £444 tax (th)
250k @ 15% £5556 ~£833 tax (th)
250k@ 20% £5556 ~ £1111 tax (th)
25% tax on £500 ~ £ 125 tax (th)
So about £2680 Thai tax bill in theory you could maybe obtain £2000 credit relief for or against tax paid in UK, but how complex or simple will that be at that level if you had to employ someone, pay for it getting stamped or such like that offset would erode rapidly, not to mention time taken.
So at the moment, under 65, I could only safely remit £4600 + £1600 taxed only in UK pension £6200 per annum simply?
So compared with the 'remit in the following year' now defunct totally simple situation, the simple solution is for me now £6200 per annum! (definitely no tax due)
To which I could add Pre-2024 savings (not easy to prove in a cash sense).
Savings and earnings whilst not Thai tax resident.
This is all from the perspective of always being UK Tax resident whilst overnight also having potential to have Thai Tax Residency over 179 days.
(There is the 50% expense thing of pension up to 100k THB potentially)
Some said their tax office said can be taxed in UK or Taxed in Thailand, along with the DTA don't worry etc but what will happen in practice Q1 2025.
For full timers Thai Tax is definitely cheaper than UK tax once your at the scale of remitting more than THB 2,100,000 😐 , income
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1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:
will the Thai RD allow the UK Personal Allowance and other countries exemptions, to be part of the tax paid process.
Me thinks; J) UK personal allowance irrelevant at the Thai end computation, except in DTA credit relief context, the total including the non taxed under the personal allowance (which is £12570). So the credit relief is proportional to say £32570 not just to the £20000 taxed portion above the PA.
It only is legitimate in the sense that it has been through a tax process and not as tax haven non-taxed.
UK £12570 allowance irrelevant Thai PA of 60kTHB + others relavent.
(03:25hrs goodnight......źzzzz
)
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3 hours ago, stat said:
Just provide your bank with the following official document that no tin is needed for Thailand (Point 5). Worked for me with several banks.
Do you have an OECD document dated April 2023 or later. Has it been updated at all....?
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5 hours ago, samtam said:
Can you help me out with what I'm missing.
I'm over 65 and I come to a figure of THB500k non taxable:
60k Personal Care Allowance
100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance
190k Over 65
150k Zero-rated
500k Total
....what's the additional 70k?
Thanks.
Sorry for not getting back sooner.
The other 70k was my .gov UK pension, which under the DTA should only be taxed in UK.
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5 hours ago, scottiejohn said:
Would a basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from UK using the 800,000 (already in the bank pre 2024) in the bank method be liable for tax and if not would he need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.
If over the 179 days per Calendar year, so Tax Resident in Thailand;-
Income up to ~21000 THB/month, no tax as £60k per annum personal allowance and 190k per annum over 65 allowance.
+
Then additionally to the 21k/month;-
There is a 150k zero tax band, so that gives another 12500 THB/month
So no tax due (overseas pensions income, age over 65), call it up to 33333 THB /month (as an easy to remember number)
If there was more, apparently there is an expense deduction of 50% of pension up to 100k Baht (a greyer area maybe) but that gives another 8333 THB / month, with no tax payable, if a tax return was made.
There is an ongoing debate about the TIN, so I skip that for now. ( The written over 120k, is maybe not the actual custom and practice though ) https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html
Speculation that maybe the Tax Office managers want an expectation of a least 120k THB /per annum that is actually taxable, before is is worth issuing a TIN...)
Just keep all your paperwork filed and archived ongoing, if under 33333/THB per month, actually remitted to a Thai bank. But I suppose they could say that you don't get the allowances unless you filed. so a simple yes / no is elusive...
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7 hours ago, chang50 said:
Very few I suspect including sections of the revenue department.I went to Jomtien tax office this morning after following the simple tax guide to get a tin number as per the law and came away empty handed.They told my wife and I to come back next year with a bank statement.This will be way past the mandated 60 days deadline for bringing assessable income into Thailand and my residence cert. might be expired after 30 days.A total waste of time and money!
Verbal rejection?
I think a rejection in a written signed and stamped form would be lovely to have.
I think I would try and put on (old) puppy eyes and show a downloaded tax residencyself declaration form, such as the HSBC form, that asks for a TIN or a reason for not having one on the form.
'Please can you give me something I can show my bank ( as my bank has a similar form ....).'
If they give you something official looking something It gives a point of reference should any staff contradict later.
For me the difficulty may be keeping a straight face and not skipping out the door if successful, in getting a.formal rejection.
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3 hours ago, sandyf said:
This has come up a few times in the past. If you are looking at an e-visa site then the amount would be the local equivalent of 400K, for the UK this would be £10,000.
If I remember right it was queried with London and the answer was that the £10K was for the ME visa, when they were available, and that for a SE Non O anything over £1,000 would be acceptable.
If I remember right the application has 2 financial questions, Q4 & Q10, the latter being a bank statement for £10K.
I think I answered Q4 and for Q10 uploaded a reference to Q4.
The RTE London confirmed by e-mail, £1k non O SE, £10k for non-O ME, May 2023.
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Just now, El Matador said:
Well you are basically betting the Thai government will do something intelligent. It may happen but I never bet on politicians doing something which won't be annoying and bureaucratic. If the country was managed with a clear pro business mind, Thailand would be above China in terms of GDP per capita. So I always keep my expectations very low with them.
I think it is more likely to be reactionary, than in anticipation.
Needs the train to hit the buffers on at least one busy inbound track in to the terminous, quick investigation and a special measure may materialise, to keep customer numbers up..
If it happens for this year relatively contained, if next year 1st quarter folks are getting pummeled for Tax, and it's worldwide media time?? will see how it goes.
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5 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:
I assume "most probably" means this is your best guess, right? Do you know if Thai RD issued any rules on real estate sale proceeds being remitted, where they consider an equal percentage of principal and capital gains are remitted, not just the prinicipal amount. I also wonder about any proceeds from stock sales that are remitted. What if I sold 100 shares of XYZ and remitted just my original investment amount and keep the capital gains in the US? Do we get to decide what money we remit, or does RD get to decide what money we are remit? This issue should have been clarified already.
I'm just trying to be optimistic, the paperwork to prove the capital principle, would also perhaps throw up the detail of the gain (even if zero rated at home)? Remitting $400k will surely trigger the alarm bells, whilst your fiscally domicile (Normally DTA Article 4) under Thai RD priority taxation.
Any big transaction like that (with favorable home contry treatment) safer to be resident in home country that year.
In 2018 I made sure when making pension transactions, co-incidentally in March, I delayed coming to Thailand until after the UK tax year concluded on April 5th and cumulatively was less than 180days in the calendar Thai Tax year (Returning to UK as non-O ME..
The difference between a sure thing and a debatable situation.
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1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:
Not nitpicking, just checking to see if I missed something... Did you mean 280K under 65 (60K PA +150K nil tax band + 70K from your government pension) & so 470K over 65?
For me the "Tax Free" number is 235K made up of:-
- 60,000 Personal Allowance
- 150,000 nil tax band
- 25K for Health Insurance
... which is exactly the amount I'll be xferring (to myself) this year 🙂
Is there not also a deductible of 50% of pension to a max of 100k baht ( not at PC currently to check the detail )
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11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:
Yes, I agree in bold above. The year of remittance alone is not enough, the year the income was earned is the other issue.
Perhaps the the year the income is earned whilst Thai Tax resident, is the more important.
Exchange of information with home country tax authority approximate your in year income.
What if;-any income arising that year is assessable as it is remitted to Thailand at anytime (161), until that total in year total is cumulatively reached.
"But it can't be I spent it or at least the remainder of it, on overseas commitments in that year"
'Prove that then'
Just sharing a recent nightmare
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9 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:
Mike,
People seem to be confusing what is assessable income versus what is non-assessable income. If someone is a Thai tax resident in 2024, and they sold a $500k house (rental or primary residence) in their home country in 2024 which they owned prior to 2024, and the original cost basis was $400k, they would have a $100k capital gain. If they remitted that $400k to Thailand, and left the $100k of capital gains in their home country, that $400k would be non-assessable income. If they remitted the entire $500k, only the $100k in capital gains would be assessable income. Isn't that correct? Also, for example, if I borrowed $ against my property, stock investments, or even my CC 2.9% cash advance offer and remitted that money to Thailand, then that money is also non-assessable because it's not earned income or income from investments. It's loan proceeds. For some reason, I seem to see things as being pretty straight-forward and simple. Am I looking at this wrong?
Remitting $400k, would make it $80k gain most probably, still a big tax bill.
Could always file on the 1st April perhaps...without losing face. .
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9 hours ago, CANSIAM said:If you are here 180 days plus, how much money can you transfer here and be exempt ?
For myself I speculate;-
Under 65
60000THB (personal allowance)
150000THB (nil tax band)
70000THB (Taxed only in UK. Gov pension)
The above all net of tax, based on actual remittance, landing in the Thai Bank Account.
Above 65 can add 190000 old age allowance!
Then there is the 50% of pension deductible (amongst others ) up to 100k Baht.
So for me generally, I think
380k THB Under 65
570k THB Over 65.
Additionally, savings before 1st Jan 2024, That you can prove
Additionally savings principle created from earnings etc whilst not Thai Tax resident ongoing years
Additionally the principle arising from inheritance if isolated, but generally as Thai IHT allowance is reasonably high.
But it will all be down to your own personal circumstance, that's where reading the tax guide may help you.
Out with your question peramiters, there is the 5% tax band which would add another 142k THB net, quite painlessly.
Would not be worth getting into DTA complexity, except for the 'only taxed in UK' aspect of my small Gov pension, until remitting a more substantial amount. " yes I can prove pensions, but only sending my .Gov pension and savings currently" if asked.
All very approx, counted on fingers and toes
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2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:
get. That means there is no statutory low, ministerial regulations or Revenue Department regulations on how DTAs should be applied. That leaves room for a great deal of inconsistent discretion by individual RD officers and the possibility that many applications for tax credits will be rejected due to lack of acceptable documentation or due to out of synch tax years, leaving tax payers to pay the total Thai tax due and try to get a refund of the total tax paid overseas on foreign source income.
The out of sync tax year is potentially a problem for UK Tax docs.
Knowing what documents will be asked for consistantly would be more than useful. Don't want the 'need stamped by your Embassy' when that is just not a possibility, as that service is not offered and such like.
Perhaps the only segment of income, that may not be an issue is the 'taxed only in UK' .Gov pension. I'm thinking the net value could be remitted as soon as the P60 end of year Tax Cert is issued (April/May) Only legitimate source, (and tax paid maybe) needs demonstrated hopefully. May have to be declared somehow, but not as part of the tax calculation. Therefore only declared as explanation, and does not logically need to align to Thai tax year. Pretty small component of my income though.
Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024
in Thailand News
Posted · Edited by UKresonant
Have when the wife is buying properties (the land being include) perhaps signed a form in the land office when transacting to say that it is not conjugal property? There was / is a form, no sure what its specific reference is....
The gift would be useful for everything else for receivers use and they could use their own resources for the property purchases.
Same issue when your wife is getting a mortgage perhaps I remember back late 90's an aquantaince getting a mortgage at the extreme limit for her Thai salary and had to convince the bank the transaction was using her own money, (not her UK national husband's).
Would be drifting into nominee territory other wise perhaps.