thaiwanderer
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Posts posted by thaiwanderer
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strange post. an inexperienced non professional doing a favour wanting a day rate because can't tell what the job will involve.
really? how long is that piece of string?
anyhow, what's the going rate for an illegal who's a bit handy?
Funny, I see nothing strange about my post, if you read and actually comprehended what I wrote. I'm a straight talker / doer, thaiwanderer. I'm not casting judgement on another, especially someone I've never met - and for sure I wouldn't be naming names on here, or anyother forum, to air a 'personal' grievance - merely giving an insight into a real subjective experiences of my own, pertaining to the topic at hand, to try and give a balancing view. Do you actually have anything real to say, by the way ?
Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly - I'm not a professional contractor, as in I don't take on, nor need to take on jobs for a living - but I do have considerable experience in certain areas of work - plumbing / water systems, etc, amongst others - and I am quite able, if I believe I can do a particular job, (because if I don't believe I can do something to a very high standard, I will be quite honest, and say 'I can't do it', unlike most wingers) to do that job to a very high degree of proficiency. Do you follow me ? I'm experienced enough to have designed and built myself a fairly cracking house so far, with my own hands / labour.
So, I retired / took a career break a few Years ago , and shut my business down (not building related) - in my thirties, and finding myself at a loose end and rather bored, and of general good ethos - with plenty of time, money and mates experiencing and suffering piss poor standards of work from contractors - both Thai and Farang, snagged loads of work for them for free, and then got a rep as being able to do a decent job, which I believe is true. I actually did some jobs for immigration and police officials, regardless of my status - they certainly didn't seem to mind, or question it - I like to be able to represent, and restore peoples faith that some people can actually do what they say they're going to do properly. I'm not sure about the rules for Westerners to work in these sorts of trades here - like I said, I did 'favours' for people, primarily friends of friends, paid and unpaid, to keep myself busy. All I do know is, pertaining to my real work here, I had a fully legit VAT registered company, completely straight and accounted for - paid quite a few million out in tax over the Years, as well as respecting and providing a decent livelyhood to everyone of my employees, as well as respecting the fact that I am a guest here, at the end of the day.
I'm not a pro, but I believe I can do a better, more thorough job, and put out a higher quality of work than most of the mugs I've met over here, actually making a living at it - in the areas I'm competent in. It actually offends me to see people getting ripped like they do, especially if I know them. Not to say I haven't met some really qualified guys doing excellent work out here, because I have. So yes, when I take on a job for someone, I believe I'm doing them a favour - because firstly, I don't need the work, and second through to forthly, because the job will be done thoroughly, a lot cheaper than redoing / fixing the job numerous times, and honourably guaranteed. It's not about the dough - it's about taking pride in your work, and being honest with others, aswell as yourself. Where I'm from - a handshake and an ok is enough between stand up, straight people, and when I say I don't know how to charge a job rate - that's me being honest - and tell me, why shouldn't I charge for my time, if someone approaches me, and wants me to do the work for them ?
If I'm doing a job of work, however dirty or hard - I do it myself, without anyones help, and I'm not trying to mug anyone off, or take the piss - I do a proper job, and put in a full days work (do you understand that concept). Invariably, and in my own limited experience, ( I would ask any experienced contractors to comment on this (because I'm not)), when you do a job for someone, especially if you're snagging someone elses botch job, who abides by different definitions of standards and work ethics, you will run into unforseen problems, which can cost considerable time to work around - this I genuinely don't know how to cost for, before experiencing unforseen problems = it's something I can only address in real time. Not like this on new work, generally, building off plans from scratch - I'm not about to bullshit anyone, or try and squeeze more out of a job by being devious, unlike some. I think some guys over here, regardless of how much money they make, in time, and with infusion of Thai mentality (usually through a money hungry spouse), start to believe everything is cheap over here, and they can command ridiculous prices for everything, because they have money, and are therefore powerful, and to be respected, and feared, and everyone is desperate for cash. I think the guy I spoke of had his nagging (in broken English) and not willing to spread the wealth Thai wife to contend with and so when the job's finished, people actually forget the reason they wanted you there in the first place, and revert back to the mindset that they could have got the job done cheaper by a Thai labourer, and therefore expect you to drop your original price agreement. By the way - I charged that guy 5 quid an hour for my time - without any thought of the length of a piece of string - so yes, I was doing him a very big favour, or is that beyond the bounds of your comprehension ?
Any way man, succinctly - that's my story. I hope in some small way it would serve to explain my position, or sate your desire for belittlement of another, or perhaps help you to understand that you can actually learn to take people as you find them and trust some people in this life, or transcend your conditioning to either one of a healthier skepticism, predjudicial bent, or help you to differentiate between consequentialist, deontological and teleological precepts as a basis for moral disposition - not everyone is trying to turn everyone else over - and if you can't trust another, without even basing your rationale on a real physical interaction / assessment, then you quite clearly are reflecting the fact that you yourself cannot be trusted. Please do read my post again thoroughly, before you make comment again, and then perhaps come up with something more intelligent, or something that would lend to this discussion more positively. I'm sorry, Ron and Matthew who ? Seems like you must be avid frequenters of this site, and seems like yourselves and the OP has lost all sense of decorum. Seem's like others are being preemptively judged for your shortcomings, by those with the very same. <deleted> me, are we all human ?
Anyhow, never mind the going rate for 'illegals' (?) - what's the going rate for some faceless fornicator on Thaivisa to inevitably post some narcissistic, or bigoted brainless snide shit-kicking comment or another on every thread / topic, for want of something better to do, these days ?
Seems to be fuckall, by the looks of things - and as a complete antithesis, a very friendly rate indeed...
how do you charge for your bitterness, by the word?
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This seems a bit one sided, and is a post that says next to nothing, without anything to back it up being taken at face value. Quite strange naming and shaming on a faceless forum.
This works both ways. I am not a professional builder by any stretch of the imagination, but I am quite handy, and somethings I have a lot of experience in, and can do quite competently, even very well.
I would never take on a job that I wasn't sure I could do extremely well - and I always guarantee my workmanship. I have taken on jobs for 'Farangs' here, and as much as they moan about the workmanship they've experienced using Thais, and the amount of times they've had to fix recurring faults, or snag shoddy work - they still want to pay you bugger all, generally, and expect top level work, instead of paying what the job's worth, (which in real terms is a small fraction of what they would pay on their home turf) and having no headaches / false economy syndrome after.
The last job I did was for a guy who heard about me through word of mouth, and I ended up going round, consulting for him, offering advice two or three times, sourcing prices for equipment, etc. (my time and money). Now I couldn't give the guy a firm timeframe for completion for the job, as I'm not an experienced contractor as such - big job, unforseen problems, etc, and I don't cut corners - I was doing the guy a favour because he was a friend of a friend..
I told the guy honestly, and said the fairest way to charge would be a daily rate for my labour - which for me is an 8 hour solid days work, not including lunch hour, short breaks, etc. All the equipment expenditure I give receipts for, from the suppliers - I don't make commissions on such things, but my time is on the clock, and my fuel must be paid for. I only asked for wages on completion of the job. Having agreed a rate, and shaking on it, I undertook the work - rolled around in shit and got cut to shreds / ruined a few sets of clothing under this rich prick's house for days, ripping out old pipe work, and putting in a whole new bespoke automatic water system for the guy, because the old system was incorrectly installed, and completely inadequate. So, of course when the job was finished properly, checked / guaranteed - no thanks, tip, bottle of beer (which I don't expect or care about really) - the guy didn't want to pay the agreed rate, and wanted a discount. In the end, to get my money, and because 'he knew this and that person', and I was working in a grey area, I had to cede to the donkey.
This was not the first time I've experienced this attitude here, from Westerners and Thais, whilst undertaking work for them, and doing a good, honest job - a job that's done once. I'm usually up for a haggle, same as the next man, but some people want to haggle so much, it's just not worth doing the work atall, with all the headaches and pressure involved. People tend to think you can get away with paying bugger all here, or squeeze and command sizeable discounts on everything (especially, and annoyingly after the job's finished), and then wonder why the work is half arsed, or the builders don't turn up, or they believe in these magical unbelievably cheap urban myth unworkable figures for you to want to take a job and bring in a team of labourers too, and heaven forbid you might want to make a profit and cover your costs also - when they themselves have no experience of changing a lightbulb, and wouldn't get out of bed for less than a fortune.
Having said this, I have met the odd few, who haven't quibbled, and have paid the money, and appreciated my work - but these have been outweighed by the number of cowboy customers - these are the people that tipped the balance for me.
I've never taken on work for anyone since those days. I'd rather choose to help a friend, or someone for free than try and squeeze money out of them honestly, along with the deceit and ill feeling that usually accompanies it. This is perhaps synonymous with the work ethic here - guys that don't turn up have probably already been ripped by someone, or many before - or have heard you're a c**t (word travels fast in building circles).
On the flip side, the average Westerners (obviously not everyone) that come here for a lifestyle, after earning their dough or experiencing huge comparative wages already, and are good for a full days hard physical work for less than their expectations, are few and far between..
I'd be interested to know how much these handy men charge for their labour, and how much anyone thinks they should, or would expect to pay a farang here, for a 'good', real job of work. Most of the farangs I know working here, who are real, qualified professionals, charge around 3,000 baht a day for their labour, on average.
strange post. an inexperienced non professional doing a favour wanting a day rate because can't tell what the job will involve.
really? how long is that piece of string?
anyhow, what's the going rate for an illegal who's a bit handy?
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All terms and sale price should be in a contract you sign with seller.
Indeed. And the OP mentions in his first post that he has signed such an agreement accepting to pay all the transfer fees and taxes, so that's an end to the discussion.
He has screwed himself and there is nothing he can do now except learn from his lesson.
Yes maybe call me naive , but I trusted them and when they asked me to sign this agreement I had to sign it as the rest of the buyers that moved in .
"The buyer agrees to pay all various taxes and expenses, including stamp duty, all transfer fees, in connection with transfer ownership."
I mean they are not specific about anything here, various taxes could mean anything, I just want to make sure about this. Stamp Duty is 0.5% so that is not a big deal for me to pay . But various taxes and suddenly we are talking about more than 6% here.
Its only one transfer fee and that is 2% at the land office. That is the Thai law. If they want me to pay the taxes that the seller is responsible for , because I signed this agreement , then they are thieves imo , and they will get away with it.
you didn't have to sign anything
neither did you have to fail to check before signing what was entailed by "The buyer agrees to pay all various taxes and expenses, including stamp duty, all transfer fees, in connection with transfer ownership."
they are not thieves
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Did your 2% figure fly out of a tree?
Pity the "several people" who gave you legal advice on which you decided to damn a developer in public didn't know more about actual transfer fees.
Maybe he got that figure from here
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/610610-land-price-agreed-what-do-i-need-to-do-now/?p=6013355
OP here are the tax and fee rates payable upon transfer.
- Transfer Fee 2% of the appraised value of the property
- Business Tax 3.3% of the registered (sale) value or appraised value (whichever is higher) but not paid if owned over 5 years
- Stamp Duty 0.5% of the registered value if owned over 5 years.
- Withholding tax;
- if the seller is a company withholding tax is fixed at 1% over the registered sale value or appraised value (whichever is higher)
- if the seller is a private person withholding tax is calculated at a progressive rate based on the appraised value of the property
Thanks thats what I have been told too , but that agreement I signed makes me think they will get away with it.
So I am only responsible for the 2% transfer fee!
I will not accept anything else from Matrix , I choosed to buy this condo because they had a good reputation from earlier projects.
I think in Park Lane, most of the buyers , mostly Russians, paid more than 2% in transfer fees and they will not be happy if they hear about this.
get away with what exactly? you complying with what you have agreed with
there are many ways to cut a deal
you are responsible for what you have agreed to
I see no devious, nefarious or even unusual practice on the part of matrix
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Thanks all
My thoughts exactly about obtaining a contract - looks like i shall have to get lawyer to draw one up since developer doesnt see the need
& yes i do know child cant hold property under debt (finance)
Was always worried if no contract that anything was possible at end of day & still need to clarify as to who shall hold titles when this does happen
i am presuming my wife would if she is signing for installments to repay the loan that was financed by the Developer hence the 9 perc & no fees what so ever & me as guarantor
This is where i got a funny feeling when i said ok 5 years to pay back ( maybe 1.5 ml ) just a figure & then actually pay it in 2 (for maybe 1,2 ml ) & end up with the Developer saying but you said 5 so you owe us - Not good if hes holding Titles
& certainly am taking all your advice as i really do know better on such an issue & was looking for the good advice i recieved since i know there are others that may have ventured down this track
thanks
based on what you've said i suspect the developer will remain the landowner and the loan won't be referred to on the title at all - a contract outside of that is especially weak
physically holding the title document is of no great protection either
negotiations as to cost of early redemption are of little significance against these issues
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your framing of the query is a little strange, do you really think the extent of a thai bank's consideration in offering and securing a mortgage is what they are legally required to do?
that aside, the bad faith mortgagee remains on the hook in your example as presented
If there are not set laws or regulations on the Thai banks lending policies I would imagine that the Bank of Thailand must at least issue guide lines that the lending institutions must follow? The banks being public companies are accountable to the Bank of Thailand and their shareholders. Even in MBK the stall holders clearly work within certain agreed guidelines... I agree with what every body says and thinks ie the Banks et all have their own agenda but there has to be stipulations whether or not they follow them is another matter.
but the extent of their due dilligence affects only the issuance of the mortgage - it is irrelevant as to what later happens
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I wrote "nominee". The Anti-nominee act of Thailand was adopted to prevent foreigners to circumventing Thai laws, by using people into their company that are not "real shareholders". In other words, they do not really invest but are "ghosts" into the company, having Thai shares, so the company is Thai and does not go against the foreign business act. Obviously, lawyers or staff can be shareholders but they can not be nominee, even if this is widely spread in Thailand.
recently spoke to a Thai lawyer about the yellow book or blue book. He was surprised we bothered about a blue book or yellow book because it has legally very little value and you can live without one. I would not bother about blue or yellow, but it looks nice having one, but thats all
Maybe it's practical in certain situations but not required.You probably again spoke to a Thai lawyer....
Yes, 1105 is mentioning that 25% but no documents were asked before. Saying that it could always be requested it talking for saying nothing. The rules have changed. It was not requested and it is now. That's the purpose of this post, to inform people about it.
Actually, 100% of the Thai shares have to be paid up now, not 25%. At least in Phuket since the beginning of this year.
So in the example of the OP, not 152,500 but 610,000 had to be shown in a bank account (for registering a new company at the Phuket DBD).
If only Thai shareholders, no money has to be shown. If Thai and foreign shareholders, only the Thai have to show money.
That didn't apply in the last provinces we made companies, meaning maybe 4 to 6 provinces in the last 6 months.
It was actually ZERO, nothing checked, if you were putting 39% and less foreign shares. This 40% rule was I believe in the "Business Registration Rules" signed on 20 July 2006. But it is possible that Phuket applies other rules. This is Thailand and nothing surprises me anymore.
There are anti-nominees provisions in many laws, like the foreign business act (see section 36) , the land code (sections 96, 113), etc. I don't deal with these matters as we have Thai lawyers doing that. Also, I am not a specialist about companies. I was just told by our staff that there were modifications.
I am glad to read about the experience of other people in other areas of Thailand. I can see it differs from one to another.
how very strange. you write of the anti-nominee act being adopted, then in the same post throw in a perhaps disparaging comment about a thai lawyer...
...then in the further post draw back on the act you wrote of being adopted and fall back on your thai laywers
while you're here can I again point out #16 of http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/508698-usufruct-on-land-title/
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inability of son to hold encumbered property is irrelevant since neither he (or his mum or OP) will apparently hold the property in any way before paid in full...and even then...no contract, amongst other issues here, huge red flag
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The thing is that I won't present at the land transfer. So don't want someone even know that there is a rich ( and dumb
) farang in the background.you aren't in the background in any way the land office is interested in
you are paying for the condo unit not buying it
there is no useful attempt at an approximation of any sort of beneficial ownership or use by you of the condo unit
...or anything else
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your framing of the query is a little strange, do you really think the extent of a thai bank's consideration in offering and securing a mortgage is what they are legally required to do?
that aside, the bad faith mortgagee remains on the hook in your example as presented
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Good to see this info from JCollister.We seem to see many opinion on this sute about this issue.
would be good to have this info written in Thai to present to each Thai lady who think your stupid, who say you can own 50/50.
The Op might could consider if it would be any difference if he did build the house himself..??
If you did build a house from start and keeping all documentations, receipt, contracts ect in your name only, then surely this must hold some gain that the building is paid by you and yours to control....but then somewhere i guess you will be made to sign something you dont know that will give her complete control
Then again another risk of building, the shoddy Thai tradesmen making shortcut and not providing the quality materials that they charge you for. also i guess every document that does come your way to sign will be in Thai.
I would like to ask the OP....in all documents you had to sign, both marriage and the other you mentioned, were transcribed in English?
Seems everything is to big risk here for farang, i agree with the other posters and say RENT
Even if your wife insist on a house then why not suggest to take a loan from Thailand, make out in her name. You can then pay off this loan of course easy,( as long as you are together) as interest rate on home loan in Thai is so very low..
Surely the Thai woman can not argue against this?
I have not signed anything yet. We went to the LO and were given a booklet and a form (written in both Thai and English). The booklet states that any Thai who is married to an alien (
) must sign the form. Both spouses must declare that the money to purchase the property come from the Thai citizen. I am not eager to sign false statements, as the bank wire oculd be be easily traced.My wife is not insisiting in buying a house; it's solely my idea. I've done some math, and think it's a good investment. As I said, I am not worred about the near future, but no one can predict how a relationship would change in the future.
Only you can decide on the path you take but for me, this is really an insult to ones intelligence and a big one, for any Thai would believe that the money for the house did come from the Thai partner.
If any Thai official (or in fact any thai person) did actually believe that the Thai woman is paying for the house they would most surely pull the Thai person aside and tell them they are stupid for paying for a house for a farang to live in.
In a country that makes laws that foreigners cannot own property but at the same time make a provision that does openly encourage people to lie against that law, and therefor the same as entrapment but not enforced is beyond belief in this day and age.
Again i say to you, if any Thai person expect you to sign this paper and lie against your own face then you must tell them to take a loan on the property, in THEIR name and you will pay all dues on that loan while the marriage remains intact
edit: In your case reflection, you say your wife is not sure on this house idea because it is not fair to you then in theory she could be more open to taking a loan in her own name!
it's not a case about anyone actually believing anything, it's a simple way of keeping the land out of common property - for political or xenophobic reasons depending on your standpoint.
it's not at all beyond belief that a county decides its own laws some of which you do not agree with.
presumably you'd back worldwide assets being factored into any divorce, if we're so interested in fairness?
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Could sell leases on the Thai half?
if retirement type community, hold thai units in wife / thai company name, foreign quota in your / your offshore company names and sell usufructs?
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the condo unit owners in a condo collectively own the land as governed by condo law
individual units have a chanote each
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Why not just make a 5 or 10 yearly renewable rental contract (deposit 3 months and pay monthly) and build your house so it can be deconstructed and moved? (Or like the other guy said a lease but pay monthly)
renewal of a 5, 10 or any number of year lease (up to max of 30 for residential) faces the same difficulty of being easily defeated
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Initially 100% will be owned by this company, and selling units up to 49% is certainly an option to seriously consider. It would make controlling and maintaining the building and the land it sits on much more easy and up to our standard. Selling more on a later date is always an option. Thanks for pointing that out as it is indeed the part that can be very troublesome. I am not sure if keeping majority of the building will allow us to out vote everyone or if it is prevented by condo rules on how much voting right can be accumulated by one or two persons. Something would have to be in the rules to ensure buyers that upkeep will be done to a certain standard. Any ideas on that?
You and your wife can hold any % up to 100 by shrouding in a combination of legal personalities - her name, thai companies, your name & off shore companies.
As to attraction of condos even some not suffering from cognitive dissonance
on the legalities prefer house over condo because of the physical structure. There is some potential for looking into townhouses or detached houses in an estate as a condo but its a bit shaky tbh. -
I have always hoped that I would go to London , Paris or NY, meet some person who out of the goodness of their heart just signed over his house, land for me to use for the rest off my life. Not happened there or in Thailand.
Read the Thai civil code carefully. Jim
Presumably it wouldn't be out of the goodness of anyone's heart?
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Land held by thai spuse not forming part of common property isn't a real problem since in the event of a divorce we'd presumably want the spouse to be well taken care of (and for practical purposes may as well throw in the house) - right?
Anyhow, for the OP the difficulty with involving the wife is the voidability of contracts between spouses which is a key problem for many of the approximations of power and control over land.
There are numerous threads on the various possibilities to start your reading before then paying for good legal advice before viewing property (dependent on how dear you hold the investment you'll then be making, and anyway to help you decide how much to stake) - search terms would include land, lease, usufruct, company structure and through that reading you'll find many more.
If you aren't happy with any of them you may wish to look into owning a condo.
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The schemes come and just keep on coming, lawyers really can't be trusted as the other poster posited they are never held liable for their deeds.
Buy in your childs name is the most straight forward and legal (except a problem to sell before they are 20), if you don't have a child then get to work with some impregnation right now. Mind you I bought in my child's name after a divorce and getting sole custody which of course does help, as the ex Mrs Rancid is totally out of the picture. She did come sniffing once and I had the police temporarily arrest her via my lawyer on a techicality I set her up for, never saw her again. But hey farangs can never win here right? Extapolate all this and an idea may emerge if the gf agrees about sole custody. In the end you want everything to go to the kids when you croak it, this just does it way ahead of time.
not sure what the biterness in the second paragraph adds to the thread - you feel better?
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I never understand why foreigners willingly pay the whole 30-year lease sum 'upfront'. It's a 'rent', not a 'purchase'!
Simon
While neither of us 'understand'
it, simple fact is the market includes farangs who willingly or unwittingly will anway far pay in excess of the freehold value for leasehold (though of course true value is what the market will bear so includes such people) - and often the lump sum is part of the cognitive dissonance of thinking renewals / right to buy etc give an approximation of freehold.The bolded part you can blame that fully on lawyers and agents, who constantly lie about renewals, options to buy, controlling shares etc. It is told so many times by them that it got to the status of truth until just a few years ago when the cracks started to appear. I guess they hate the internet tat makes it possible to put a light on these criminals.
If foreigners knew exactly how things work nobody would pay 30 years upfront, it is almost insane to do that, exceptions for super prime locations used for doing business.
I wouldn't go so far as to say 'fully' - delusion is still relatively widespread - some people just want to believe
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I never understand why foreigners willingly pay the whole 30-year lease sum 'upfront'. It's a 'rent', not a 'purchase'!
Simon
While neither of us 'understand'
it, simple fact is the market includes farangs who willingly or unwittingly will anway far pay in excess of the freehold value for leasehold (though of course true value is what the market will bear so includes such people) - and often the lump sum is part of the cognitive dissonance of thinking renewals / right to buy etc give an approximation of freehold. -
Firstly the side letters / contracts may well not provide all or any of the farang’s intended consequences (power and control over the land) since enforcing it if the thai were to go bandit essentially involves admitting an illegal purpose – neither has clean hands here so the house of cards could fall any way and its the farang who has most to lose (though both technically could be jailed).
That’s not the issue here but is entirely relevant to persuading the farang to release the thai totally. If they refuse the thai may have to bite the bullet of likely lesser punishment and go see the land office and say ‘good intentions landed me in a pickle’ which as a last resort then set out to the farang should hopefully force them to release the thai.
For the farang they either need to find another kindly thai to commit an offence for free so they can have the house they want, use a professional proxy or use a more sophisticated company structure.
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depends on the condo's own rules - in theory these can be changed and since op talks of units he may then have sufficient weighting / able to persuade others to agree - however other external regs nationally / locally / area / plot specific may preclude it
on the face of it not immediately disallowed but not at all a simple question inviting a genial answer - may be allowed in neighbouring condo but not yours
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personally I wouldn't act as POA for anyone unless unavoidable
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public information
Maybe it's practical in certain situations but not required.
) farang in the background.
) must sign the form. Both spouses must declare that the money to purchase the property come from the Thai citizen. I am not eager to sign false statements, as the bank wire oculd be be easily traced.
it, simple fact is the market includes farangs who willingly or unwittingly will anway far pay in excess of the freehold value for leasehold (though of course true value is what the market will bear so includes such people) - and often the lump sum is part of the cognitive dissonance of thinking renewals / right to buy etc give an approximation of freehold.
Transfer Fee Is 2% , Is It Legal For A Developer To Ask For More ?
in Real Estate, Housing, House and Land Ownership
Posted
Given the interest in 'legal' rights how much rent is Balo paying from feb to june?