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BANGKOK 23 May 2019 05:44


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Posts posted by TravelerEastWest

  1. 3 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

    You are becoming annoying. As someone else has mentioned, you are confusing fat in the diet with fat in the body; they are not the same; and fat in the body does not arise from eating fat.

    Fatty liver disease is indeed linked with diabetes, although the assumption is that fatty liver is caused by insulin resistance/diabetes, and not that the fatty liver comes first and then causes diabetes; although no doubt restricting liver function doesn't help the problem. Either way, someone with non-alcoholic fatty liver will probably be insulin resistance (unless there is another cause such as Hep C).

    Suggest you learn a little about human physiology.

    Sometimes the whole truth is annoying it is not a bad thing - I suggest that you consider spending some more time doing research on the other schools of thought 


    I agree with you that studying physiology is a good thing - but sadly I am not good enough with statistics to understand the actual research and you need to know quite a bit of graduate level statistics (and other areas) to understand the research.


    So instead, I use actual experience and I read those whom I trust based on their research, education and who is paying them to do their research. Note they don't agree with each other 100%.


    I do step by step over time study about the body and health - after having done a core body of research fulltime for many months because I have been very sick with diabetes for many years - so this is not a joke for me and I have one purpose in posting, and one purpose only; to try and help others even it is only one person - that is OK.


    I am currently 50% better using a whole plant-based diet. but I am not finished yet and hope to get to 80% plus better - difficult to get 100% when you lose beta cells over time.



  2. Just a summary thought:


    High carbs without getting rid of excess fat is a problem, of course, all junk food is a problem.


    Getting rid of excess fat will remove most of the root problem. If you still eat junk food then you will still have a problem.


    If you eat a low carb diet you can have diabetes go into remission (and lose eight etc) but you will still have long term problems.


    I wish you and your family all the best - one day you will understand please have research the UK information it is interesting and not about being a vegetarian but connected to the fat discussion- there is zero need for meat in our diet - this is a fact.

  3. 19 hours ago, robblok said:

    I honestly don't see the point in not eating meat, plenty of proof its good for you (depending on the kind and quantity). Most plant based proteins are not as good as proteins from meat. Its a fact most vegans have a hard time to accept. Its also a fact that vegans are often deficient in many things so why go so extreme if its not needed. 


    My diet is good and includes quite a bit of salad and broccoli and I exercise 3 times a week in my home gym and the other 4 days i walk with some heavy weights in the park for cardio. So id say my diet and exercise are good enough. 


    I don't want to sound boring but all your evidence is ancient. Most of it anyway science moved on just so you know. Just look at the dates of your evidence. 

    Plenty of proof to study that meat and dairy is bad for you both new and old but more importantly, the trend is away from meat.


    lots of old and new information out there just mentioning some areas to start. Dr Esselstyn is someone with a solid background - are you saying he is making up his research and medical results?


    Plant-based proteins are fine you don't need to eat all your amino acids at one time - lots of solid research for this.


    A vegan whole plant based diet (not a vegan junk food diet) is often deficient in Vitamin B-12 true and occasionally a few other things so simply supplementing is a good idea.


    I am not commenting on your personal diet etc only general ideas for those who are not aware of the truth...


    Perhaps the most recent and best research for fat causing diabetes is by Dr Roy Newcastle in the UK:



    "Type 2 diabetes has long been regarded as a chronic disease and one with a complex, obscure cause. However, research by Newcastle University’s Professor Roy Taylor using innovative magnetic resonance methods has confirmed his Twin Cycle Hypothesis – that Type 2 diabetes is simply caused by excess fat within the liver and pancreas. In the liver, this fat causes a poor response to insulin and it produces too much glucose. In the pancreas, the fat inhibits insulin secretion. By clearly defining the cause of the disease, treatment can be planned to reverse the processes."


    Note he is not a vegetarian and seems to be focusing on a low calorie diet to remove fat.


    My point is for diabetes fat will harm and kill you.


    More and more this is becoming clear. 


  4. This doctor talks more about heart disease but the cure is the same for most chronic disease.


    Exercise is magic as you know it helps so much in so many ways - but yes, a good diet is more important.


    There is so much serious research out there about the benefits of whole plant based diets being best - now if your diet is mostly good and you exercise a lot then all is well... smiling.


    Articles & Studies

    Articles on the Arrest and Reversal Study:

    A Way to Prevent CAD?     NEWThe Journal of Family Practice. July 2014 Vol 63, No 7 page 257

    The Nutritional Reversal of Cardiovascular Disease — Fact or Fiction? Three Case Reports     NEWExperimental and Clinical Cardiology. July 2014 Vol 20 issue 7. page 1901

    Is the Present Therapy for Coronary Artery Disease the Radical Mastectomy of the Twenty-First Century?The Am J Cardiol. 2010: 106: 902-904

    A Strategy to Arrest and Reverse Coronary Artery Disease: A 5 -Year Longitudinal Study of a Single Physician’s PracticeEsselstyn CB Jr. et al: The Journal of Family Practice 1995 December; 41(6): 560-68

    Updating a 12 -Year Experience With Arrest and Reversal Therapy for Coronary Heart Disease (An Overdue Requiem for Palliative Cardiology)Esselstyn CB Jr. The Am J of Cardiology 1999 August 1; 84:339-34


    Resolving the Coronary Artery Disease Epidemic through Plant-Based Nutrition(with photos of disease reversal) Esselstyn CB Jr: Preventive Cardiology 2001;4: 171-177

    In Cholesterol Lowering, Moderation KillsEsselstyn CB Jr. Cleve Clinic J of Med 2000 August; 67 (8): 560-564

    Selected Articles:

    IS OIL HEALTHY? Esselstyn CB Jr., International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention, Vol 1 No 1

    Beyond Surgery Presidential AddressEsselstyn CB Jr. Surgery Dec 1991; 110(6): 923-27

    More Than Coronary Artery DiseaseEsselstyn CB Jr. : The Am J of Cardiology 1998 November 26; 82 (10B):5T-9T

    Changing the Treatment Paradigm for Coronary Artery DiseaseEsselstyn CB Jr.: The Am J of Cardiology 1998 November 26; 82(10B): 1T-4T



    How to Keep David Letterman (and yourself) Off the Operating Table

    A Revolution to Restore America’s Health

    Huffington Post Interview with Dr. Esselstyn

    The Collapse of Cardiology: A Time to Rejoice?

    Olympic Reflections 50 Years Later

    Plant-based Nutrition

    News and Results

  5. 5 minutes ago, robblok said:

    I don't get it how carbs can ever work for someone who is diabetic. Do you take medicine to combat your diabetic. Because if you don't then i am impressed then you control your diabetic with carbs something that is unheard of. 


    It is often heard of people not taking medicine and eating no carbs and controlling their disease like that but not with carbs.


    Again it depends of course on how many and what kind of carbs how much of an insulin response people get. My brother is diabetic and can take carbs.. but only because he takes medicine without it would be real bad for him.

    I do not take medicine and when I was taking medicine I was eating too much fat and getting sicker.


    Now with a low fat plant-based diet I am getting better.


    There is a lot of information out there and the trend is supporting this kind of diet.


    Of course, as you said you need a balance which is why I agreed with you.


    Dr Neal Bernard has written books and has many video interviews on the internet he would be a good place to start.


    There is a great deal of information out there about how a high carb diet helps with insulin resistance but many who like meat and processed food don't want to read about it...


    let's not leave out exercise it is a big part of the solution and is fantastic.



  6. 15 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

    "Insulin resistance is caused by excess fat". Sorry, this is completely untrue.
    When glucose arrives in the bloodstream, insulin is released by the pancreas to direct the glucose to muscle and fat cells. Glucose comes from carbohydrates/sugar. An intake of protein also requires insulin for metabolism, but to a lesser extent and with limited effect on blood sugar. An intake of fat requires minimal insulin and has no effect on blood sugar. Insulin resistance occurs when the system is consistently overloaded with demands for insulin leading to a rise in blood sugar levels. Fat intake has absolutely nothing to do with this.
    Here's some reading for you, published by NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1204764/

    Please share your best research that counters current medical science by proving that insulin resistance is caused by excess fat. I would like to read this because my diet is mainly fat (including, horror!, nuts) and my metabolism is healthy with very low HbA1C; so I am obviously a medical freak!


    "he key point the low carb people miss is that long term high fat will kill you". Yeah, we are all stupid.

    Fat being the problem is completely true - it clogs up the body and creates insulin resistance this is a fact.


    What you are talking about is correct but only part of the puzzle...


    Lots of goods research out there but let's keep it simple:


    Dr Esselstyn is a very serious doctor with years of good results:



    Dr Dean Ornish is also good but you might not like him as he goes into exercise and spiritual lifestyle as part of his program which is accepted by Medicare after years of study.


    Lots of good cardiologists will talk about the bad health effects long term of excess fat.


    More important is the trend which does not support high fat diets.


    I am happy that your Hba1c is low and I hope that your current good health continues for the rest of your life.

    2 hours ago, robblok said:

    I choose to eat meat sorry to offend you.. not because it is good to build muscle (better as most plant based proteins) but because I like eating it.  But it certainly is not where i get most of my proteins from.


    I believe in carbs i don't see the point to always limit them but it certainly is needed if your diabetic. So your wrong there carbs are the reason. I eat carbs I don't fear them and I eat them around my training and maybe later when I am super lean at normal times.


    I feel there are far too many extremist about dieting low carb, now you with your pant based diet. I feel you can also eat between low carb and high carb if you want. The basis is eating whole foods and eating less then what you consume and not eating excessive carbs (even plant based) What is excessive depends of course on the individual. 


    I am getting leaner as ever and I steal eat carbs. I am low carb too on my non training days. It all seems to work right now (until it stops of course)

    Thank you for your consideration - your meat-eating doesn't directly offend me. 


    What some in this thread don't see is that healthy whole plant carbs are very healthy for diabetics I can tell you this from the research and many years of personal experience.


    Yes, my diet is very extreme and so is my diabetes (many years) if I did not have diabetes I would not be so extreme.


    "The basis is eating whole foods and eating less then what you consume and not eating excessive carbs (even plant based) What is excessive depends of course on the individual."


    I agree with your above statement - smiling.

  8. 20 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

    The actual process by which plaque builds up in the artery does indeed seem to be still not fully understood, but one of the conditions that facilitates it is insulin resistance; which is why diabetics have a greatly increased risk of contracting heart disease (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3610922/).


    I switched to a plant based vegetarian diet some seven years ago in the belief it was more healthy. Unfortunately I assumed that I could consume vast quantities of fruit as part of this diet, mainly taken as smoothies to maximise the glycemic load. Plus loads of bread and rice and "healthy" breakfast cereal. Five years later I discovered I was pre-diabetic and had heart disease.  My approach to counter this has not been to consume more carbs...

    The bread was probably a big part of your challenge?


    Fruit as smoothies compared to eating whole fruit also a challenge.

  9. Again plant-based diets are clearly best based on the best and most complete research trends.


    I use the word trends as there is conflicting research out there and a lot of the research is confusing and incomplete.


    Even good researchers make mistakes as an example I like Dr. Gregor but he seems to on occasion make mistakes such as with his support for nuts which are high fat and not so good for your heart. I guess he is trying to read with the help of his team huge amounts of data and occasionally he misses key points - sad but true - or so it seems.


    Insulin resistance is caused by excess fat which then means you can't handle high carbs. Saying carbs is the problem is a short-sighted point of view - not wrong but not the complete picture...


    Processed carbs are very bad for you.


    Whole plant based carbs are good for your overall health and over time your insulin resistance will go down based on the best-unbiased research and from my personal experience. (anecdotal I understand...) Note if you have diabetes a whole plant-based diet is not a free ticket to unlimited carbs - you need balance and exercise.


    The key point the low carb people miss is that long term high fat will kill you - full stop. Also short term your weight will tend to go down glucose tends to go down etc - no argument, but long term not so good.


    I am not here to argue with die-hard meat and low carb folks - only to point out that there are alternate views supported by good research - for those who are new to this discussion. keep in mind a lot of the research that supports meat eating is funded by - guess who... even nut eating is often funded by the nut industry, NIH research is perhaps the best in terms of pure science and being unbiased - or so I am told.


    I am also not going to argue that animal cruelty is an issue - although I personally feel that it is - but with a few exceptions, almost everyone I know likes meat and is probably not going to stop eating it. So it is a mute point...


    For the sports and bodybuilders out there please note there is no need to eat meat to build muscle - there are very good bodybuilders and athletes who are vegetarian - but there are not so many which is why people don't know about them.


    As for everyone is different to a certain extent this is clearly true but some general constants are also true.

  10. "Though if your pre diabetic you should really go keto as then it would be a big plus."


    Not true at all, the best research shows that a high carb whole plant diet is best for chronic diseases such as heart disease and diabetes.


    Read Dr Gregor, Dr Ornish and so on... the trend is clear.


    Normally those who love meat and those who sell meat disagree...



  11. "Yet there is still an active camp (i.e.: Joel Fuhrman MD) who will claim that fat, not carbs is the culprit).  I've explored both points of view in depth, and for the life of me, I just can't fathom how any rational person could not see the truth about carbs in connection with diabetes, yet th opposition is quite vocal and strong."


    It is not just an active camp suggesting a departure from SAD and moving towards a whole food plant-based diet. More and more doctors are moving that way and science backs up this way of life.


    Programs are starting to train doctors in nutrition and the benefits of whole plant-based diets.


    Dr Dean Ornish now has his low fat program paid for by Medicare (I think or is it Medicaid ?) 


    More and more a low-fat whole food diet is supported by research and of course many personal stories...


    Processed carbs are bad, whole plant carbs are fine. Now if you ate whole plant heavy carb carbs 18 hours a day is it bad for you? Probably way too much for diabetics and maybe others but this doesn't happen as whole plant-based foods fill you up.



  12. "It's a well established fact that excessive carbohydrates lead to obesity,.."


    Sorry, but it is not clearly established - just the opposite based on my readings and personal experience. Unless you define excessive as processed junk food carbs in that case I am with you - but you can eat healthy carbs as much as you like - maybe because they fill you up quickly?


    High carb diets have been around for thousands of years all over the world.


    What is bad is a junk food diet high in carbs and protein and fat and processed foods.


    But I 100% respect your beliefs and personal experience...

  13. 15 hours ago, robblok said:

    So my 25kg weight loss on a high carb diet was fiction. Mate I like you a lot but your carb fobic. You can lose fat on all diets and there is little difference between low carb and other diets. Sometimes it wins but not by much. So you should stop stating that you can't lose fat on other diets, its simply not true. You should read my studies too. 




    You are clearly correct -based on my experience - high carb diet whole plant based diet with light exercise daily equal lots of weight loss which has stayed off.


    low carb diets can give good short term results (really don't know about long term) but not better than a high carb diet.


    I think lifestyle changes are what we are after and not a diet - which can be hard to maintain.

  14. "I, for one, totally agree that fats are over-demonized.  The fat vs carb debate has fierce advocates for both views but the chief thing that separates the two camps is that those who blame diabetes on excessive carbs tend to back up their claim with documented science-based studies pertaining to metabolic physiology and biochemistry, while those advocating fat as the culprit rely more on anecdotal and epidemiological evidence which are simply a lot less compelling, and more open to biased interpretation.

    When you look at science-based facts, it’s pretty clear that carbs, not fats are the real culprit..."


    An interesting observation which I don't agree with based on the latest studies and science - again I rely on people like Gregor - I don't read the research papers myself as I am not qualified.


    I also like Bernard's research and he came from a cattle family so I think he is not biased in terms of his background.


    my non scientific observation is that meat eaters don't want to give up their meat and fat and are struggling to find anything to support their position.


    Myself I love cheese and pizzas but no longer eat them as they are too fattening and not healthy.


    But I respect your thoughts.



    2 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

    I'm not really frustrated because I've realized for most of my life that doctors are generally not experts in nutrition and healthy life styles. In fact, most doctors I've had personal conversations with, during social meetings, have expressed the opinion that jogging as a form of exercise is not recommended and is likely to be harmful, which is nonsense.


    I see processed foods in general as being bad, or at best, less than ideal, and that includes a lot of the food served in restaurants where the main motivation of the cook is to produce food which is as tasty as possible so that you keep coming back and increase the profits of the business.


    However, I don't see fat as being bad and the primary cause of diabetes. For many decades saturated fats have been demonized and a huge industry has developed to produce butter substitutes such as margarine and low fat milk and low fat yoghurt, and so on. Whilst this was occurring, the rates of obesity and diabetes in Western populations increased, demonstrating there was no connection.


    The body needs saturated fats and struggles to produce those fats when they are removed from the diet. I spread natural butter on my bread, drink full-cream milk, eat full-cream yoghurt, love Camembert cheese and often use Extra Virgin Coconut Oil in my diet.


    Of course, too much saturated fat is bad, just as too much of anything is bad, but that's another issue. If someone is already getting sufficient saturated fats and then, in addition, begins eating Coconut Oil because they've heard of the health benefits, then that additional saturated fat, beyond the body's requirement, could have negative consequences.

    I am quite frustrated at the state of medicine today - but I try to be understanding...


    "...the rates of obesity and diabetes in Western populations increased, demonstrating there was no connection."


    I don't agree with the above statement about no connection - fat consumption with the SAD is quite high. processed food consumption is high, meat and dairy consumption is high all together not a good thing...


    There is fat in almost everything including oatmeal - normally no need for extra oils etc none at all.

  16. 1 hour ago, FracturedRabbit said:

    1. Atkins isn't Keto
    2. The references are at least ten years old; science has moved on. I could provide you with endless references to the benefits of low carb diets.
    3. Still not provided a reference to long term health problems of keto/low carb. Don't bother, I have friends who have been on it for years and are extremely healthy, and I am massively more healthy than I was two years ago.
    4. Gregor is all about a plant based diet, that it is fine if that is your thing; but plant based eating has the same potential problem with carbs (see graphic).

    Here's a fact. Excessive carbohydrate intake (irrespective of nutrition source) leads to insulin resistance, leads to metabolic syndrome, leads to diabetes (and heart disease and Alzheimer's). Limiting your carbohydrate intake is good for your health.


    Atkins, Keto, Paleo yes different in the details all similar...


    That link was just an interesting one quickly found many to be found.


    Now what is the value of low carb supporting studies vs high carb? As I posted earlier I am not qualified to say but I can say that so far Gregor is the most logical and fact based writer that I have come across recently. And I trust his review of the current research.


    I am curious your friends have they been on the low carb diet for 4 or 5 years or 20 plus years? And let's say they have been eating a  low carb diet for 20 plus years how many others have been doing this without health problems? they can look good be trim and strong and happy and drop dead from a heart attack in 20 years...


    Let's assume that excess carb intake can cause problems - first, junk food carbs will cause problems for sure. Eating a whole plant-based diet? Not so sure as you get full quickly and you don't normally have high glucose spikes from whole plants. Again are there extreme high carb diets that are while plant-based that can cause problems - possible but very rare and I have never heard of one ever.


    In your chart the rice is not whole grain


    French fries are garbage

    wholemeal sounds procccesed


    Bananas and grapes certainly do have a high amount of carbs and being careful with them would be a good idea...


    Overall the chart is of little value for this topic unless you think it is composed of a whole plant diet?


    How about a chart filled with vegetables and whole grains and fruits? That would be more useful.


    Lots of studies out there showing meat is terrible for our health - of course if you eat very small amounts mostly for flavor not taht bad...

  17. 15 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

    Insulin resistance arises due to excessive sugar/carbohydrate intake over a period of time and can be tackled by reducing the intake of sugar/carbohydrates. If you eat a plant based diet high in fruit, root vegetables and other food with a high glycemic index; then you can end up with insulin resistance. If you eat any food (plant based or otherwise) which is low in carbohydrates/sugars and has a low glycemic index, you can manage insulin resistance. 
    I was vegetarian for years and my diet unfortunately included a daily large fruit shake with bananas and other fruits. I also enjoyed ice cream, cakes and desserts. I ended up pre-diabetic and with heart disease.
    I see daily reports of those who have put their diabetes into remission and no longer need medication using a low carb diet.
    I have never seen a study showing all cause mortality going up with a low carb diet, please share.


    Britain's worst rag, The Daily Mail, which usually publishes nonsense nutrition advice, has an article on how people are tackling diabetes with a low carb approach.

    Just to start:




    Dr Gregor's book; 



    I have read many references to the long term health problems of Keto low carb diets I am not worried about the short term problems because not everyone has them and they don't seem too bad...

  18. 16 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

    This is a rather puzzling statement. Are you suggesting there are more effective ways of losing weight than fasting? As I understand, it's not possible not to lose weight if you fast. The longer you fast, the more weight you lose. To not lose weight during fasting would be against the fundamental laws of physics.


    I think the story of Angus Barbieri has been mentioned before in this thread. This is an amazing example of a fast which lasted 382 day and resulted in a weight loss of 125 kg. I'm not aware of any type of diet which would allow a person to lose 125 kg of body weight in a little over a year. However, this fast was supervised by doctors administering vitamins and minerals as required, and Angus did occasionally have cups of coffee, tea, and sparkling water, so one could argue it was not a 'completely' true, water-only, fast.


    I understand your frustration with your doctor's lack of nutritional and exercise counseling. I have had the same experience... In their defense they are typically overworked in an insurance-based medical system and do not have the time to really help - and yes they normally are not trained in nutrition.


    I have spent many hours doing surface research (as stated before I am not qualified to review the research and I don't think many people are...) and based on keto type diets having increases all causes of long term mortality (my sources are primarily experienced cardiologists - again I do surface research and then end up following with an open mind)


    As for internet gurus - I tend to discount those without training and then I look to see the general trend and balance with my own experience. 


    I think that banishing processed carbs from our diet is a good thing but not whole food based carbs. I am familiar with Fung's thoughts and he is very arrogant and I think he is correct on the basic short term results of low carb diets and fasts. But he and others ignore the fat issues which from what I read are big issues.


    So I see processed carbs as bad and leading to diabetes as well as a high fat diet. With fat being the primary cause.




  19. This thread is very interesting and my thanks to the posters.


    I am not an MD or research Ph.D. so I have a difficult time understanding the research out there. I barely survived statistics in grad school, and you need a solid grounding in statistics to even start to understand some of these studies.


    Dr. Gregor who wrote How not to die is my go-to source for science backed research. I also have a friend who is an MD and research Ph.D. who has not said he is 100% certain about the whole plant-based low-fat diet but is leaning in that direction.


    I see lots of smart people arguing both sides of the fence - fat or carbs?


    One thing that makes reading books and watching videos difficult is that often both sides are correct but sometimes incomplete...


    As an example, low carbs can certainly help those with diabetes - quickly reduce glucose levels, etc.; but they don't help with insulin resistance while a whole plant based diet does help with insulin resistance.


    But there is a shortage of long term studies with large groups on the effects of low carb diets, and some studies show all causes of mortality goes up long term with low carb diets.


    So, in the end, some experimenting needs to be done for each person to see what works best.


    For me a whole plant-based diet low fat with mild exercise 6 or 7 days a week works well and I have diabetes and have had it for a very long time.

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  20. You can't say all government hospitals are bad or all private hospitals are good but overall private hospitals in Thailand will tend to have more up to date medicine, shorter waits, newer equipment, cleaner facilities, more English speaking staff, and more experienced doctors.


    If you take a first-rate insurance policy and put the expensive premiums into a conservative investment.


    Then over time you are fully covered and even in your 80s plus you are safe = no cancellations.


    Note small private hospitals typically are not good for emergency care.



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