TravelerEastWest
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Posts posted by TravelerEastWest
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22 minutes ago, Lwood said:
I have also been wondering if the Thai Gifts exemptions (explained on the Sherrings site among other places) could be a legimate tax planning tool to ensure that payments for goods and services in Thailand (school fees, cars etc) is excluded from "income" being remitted into Thailand for the Personal Income Tax calculation. For example ... gift the money to a Thai spouse, descedent etc from outside Thailand (without touching your bank accounts in Thailand) who then pays the expense. I appreciate this will only work if the person receiving the gift has a legimate reason for meeting the ultimate expense and you are happy for the asset being acquired (eg a car) to be in their name, but it does seem to create an opportunity to cover TH10m/20m per tax year (or even higher if some of the funds are for educational purposes). Depending on individual circustamces it would also be necessary to check Gifts/Inheritance type rules in the overseas jurisdiction.
Yes, worth thinking about.
I can see a gift to in-laws being according to Thai culture and then a gift of a car also being OK. maybe a Toyota and not a BMW? Paying school fees should also be acceptable. So as long as the Thai is followed carefully all should be well. I would always consult a good Thai CPA who speaks English. I am amazed at how brave many are to do their own taxes here. Although probably most foreigners with a Thai income or business do use a Thai CPA and only retired people with low incomes go it on their own...?
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1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:
Yet from Rule 5 in RD's own FAQ on DTAs... https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html
5. What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?
- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.
Which to me says that anything that is covered by a DTA will not have additional tax applied to it even if the rate is higher in Thailand.
It does seem to say that - but a RD FAQ is only a department's interpretation of the law and normally it is about the lowest level authority far below an actual law or regulation. If the government wants more revenue at any moment it could change...
Note I could not read in English the above case.
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16 minutes ago, Guavaman said:
With all best wishes for you and your family, I offer this thought: Problems that never arose in the past -- might arise in the future, even under the same conditions as previously existed. "The times they are a' changing."
Correct - you never know what the future holds - I once had a corporate tax class in grad school a long time ago and I mentioned what I thought the new law would be on the topic of the day and the professor asked how I knew what Congress was going to do... I got his message.
In this case, all my financial transactions are simple and no problems should turn up.
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5 minutes ago, Guavaman said:
Sending amounts of that magnitude activate red flags in the US and Thai banking systems -- and CRS.
I have never had a problem with that amount. When you have a family here expenses add up quickly... So if a red flag is raised it is a small one...
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3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:
I have no control over how those remittances are labelled and I cannot change them, both of my banks, Bangkok and UOB, label them as income. To be clear, these are direct deposits from the UK State Pension and the US SSc. I posted that statement in response to K2938' post and the quote from tilleke gibbons who said:
Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."
(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.
Interesting - how do you know what the banks report - do they send you a year end tax document?
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8 minutes ago, Guavaman said:
The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.
The "banks" do not "decide" anything: Their information systems only report credits and debits to your account -- deposits and withdrawals from your account.
You may be completely correct - but it makes me curious when I send more than $50,000 from America to my Thai Bangkok bank account they always call me and ask what the money is for, but they never ask where the money is from... As a side note they also give a slightly better rate for above $50,000.
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4 hours ago, bugger bognor said:
still a lot of delusional expats debating a non story my prediction of 200 pages of crap by Xmas looks like an underestimate , the law HASTNT changed and has been in place for decades!!!! A Statement of 2 paragraphs by an Advisory board has got you loosing your small minds, nothing will change for 99,9% Of all expats, A top legal firm in Bangkok has quoted it would need up to 30000 pages of legislation written up to implement the kind of taxation you fear so much it would also need 1000s of new staff to deal with it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOR ANOTHER DECADE AT LEAST mark my words,and even if t did happen if you can't work out how easy it would be to avoid tax you DESERVE TO PAY IT ,
The US tax code which is more complex than the Thai tax code is not 30,000 pages in length although if you throw in the regulations etc it is over 30,000 pages...
I wonder if you perhaps have accidentally added a couple of zeros to your 30,000 page statement above?
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11 hours ago, Tequila Sunrise said:
I am an honest and abiding person, I accept to pay what is due by the laws of the land. However, in all countries there's tricks and ways for those who understand the rules of the game to optimize things. If it's too murky I would avoid it but if it's a legal trick then why not. Wasn't there a famous anecdote where Warren Buffett legally paid less tax than his secretary 🙂
The CPAs in the large firms are the best in the world - The only problem is that they are expensive. But from your current taxes that should not be a problem for you. Did you talk to your employers accounting department to get some help?
Warren Buffet has mostly dividends and capital gains so his tax rate is lower than his secretary who has a salary. But he probably pays way more in taxes.
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2 hours ago, Tequila Sunrise said:
Thanks. Would you be able to give me a pointer in the right direction to any said "well connected" Thai accountant?
I am struggling in Thailand, been here 1 year and haven't made a single friend or connection. Been deceitfully scammed more than once and cannot speak the lingo so basically get ripped off every single day. The work here is much harder than I thought it would be, very long hours and I am the only foreigner in a team of 300 people. Most people in my company can speak great English but they choose not to and I'm starting to feel very alone and lost. My day is basically 8am-8pm work, grab some dinner and sleep. Repeat. Weekends I'm so tired I just stay around the condo and rest. I don't want to give up as I see many expats here have a great life.
I have been reading posts on this forum and people seem nice, informative and having a decent sense of humor. Hence I signed up for some friendly support.
My current annual income tax liability is millions of THB. I don't want to state the number as it's not polite but let's say more than 4 million and less than 6 million.
Be very careful of murky tax actions as described - if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
All good CPAs know how to legally negotiate your taxability following the law - nothing murky or secret about it...
Your company sounds large so they should be able to give you some advice to get started and a contact with a large CPA firm.
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"Can you/anyone recommend a good/trustworthy Thai accountant that I can speak to about my taxes?"
If you want expert advice two options
1 A large international CPA firm such as KPMG = best advice but high fees but may be worth it for results and peace of mind. Perhaps the one your firm uses may give you a good price?
Second choice is a smaller CPA firm with the partners having big firm experience before going on their own - more difficult to find...
No need for a law firm.
Large CPA firms have highly trained and experienced tax specialists
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11 hours ago, Yumthai said:
It's called a bribe not a tax.
No it's called being told to file a tax return not pay a bribe. And file regularly. This is a normal activity for tax agents. everything was done in the open and explained to me in English by the local tax manager.
Interestingly Al Capone the famous Chicago criminal was arrested and put in jail in a similar way - Federal tax agents investigated his spending and he had not paid his taxes... next stop Alcatraz - famous American jail for this who haven't heard of it...
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On 10/12/2023 at 7:56 AM, LivinLOS said:
Well you can, its only the remittance to Thailand which creates the taxable event..
Start paying all bills via wise.. A direct payment from outside the country to the 3rd party is then thier taxable event, not yours.. House and car payments, GF or wifes housekeeping, etc etc.. Spend as much as possible with an overseas credit card.. Brings the total right down.From a Thai theoretical tax point of view - you are in reality indirectly making your own payment and a taxable event may occur...
On a practical level they are unlikely to be able to track the transactions most of the time...
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18 minutes ago, stat said:They dont need to, they could just tax all your remittances. But "up to you" Somchai will say if you can come up with all the paperwork that Somchai needs????
BTW in Germany there is also an easy way for a tax declaration: If you do not provide sufficient material for a tax declaration or none at all the taxman will make an estimation and you can guess in which direction the estimate will go. Same COULD happen in Thailand.
100% correct.
I saw a district RD manager in the countryside watch a street vendor and estimate sales and taxes based on sales volume - the street vendor was then forced to pay taxes.
It is a myth that all street vendors don't pay taxes in Thailand.
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4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:
Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand?
It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.
I have spent time with Rd staff and live and work here and have filed many years of Thai tax returns. My experience and that of all Thai business people that I know does not match yours - not sure why... Well I have never waited in a line but no free coffee!
You can't trust a RD official to fill out your tax return unless maybe it is the simplest possible one with no tax owed. a number of reasons - they are not on your team and normally they are not well trained.
In the tax world there are lots of gray areas - gues which path they will follow?
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4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:
There is another thread started today about changed procedures for the TM30s in the Pattaya Immigration Office. May I suggest that some posters here need to go read that thread, and some of the others on the many difficulties Expats have regarding dealing with the Thai Imigration. My point being - if anyone thinks dealing with the Thai Tax Office will be any better than the Thai Immigration, IMO you are very very mistaken. Knowing as much as possible how it works, and what is the correct way to do something (currently), and what documents are required, is extremely important when dealing with any Thai bureaucracy. Unlike Immigration, the Thai RD have zero obligation to 'teach or advise' Expats (or anyone) how to complete an annual tax return.
Grumpy is 100% correct.
In general his above comments are correct and apply to many revenue departments including in America.
To trust Revenue Deparyment officials as being kind and on your side is not the best policy I say this from years of experience working in the tax world in America and many years of filing personal and corporate taxes in Thailand. There is always the exception if for example the local official is your brother-in-law?
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8 hours ago, Lorry said:I don't think any taxman in the world would accept your reasoning.
"Show me all you've got!"
And then it's THEIR decision what is taxable and what not.
Sounds like JIm is correct - he doesn't owe taxes on his pensions.
But the Thai government seems to have the right in Thailand to request whatever information they want and make any demands they want - even if their demands are wrong. Then the taxpayer has the right to protest following ThaI law.
Similar to America. In America the IRS makes tax assements that are wrong and taxpayers go to court and overturn the assesment. But it gets even more interesting lets say the tax case is in California and the 9th circuit court of appeals supports the taxpayer - the iRS can legally not follow the Appeals court decsion in another district say the 2nd circuit in New York - until they lose there again.
The point I am making is that it is fun to think about these new tax rules now (and sometimes very useful) but it dangerous for the lay person to think they understand tax law in general and international tax law in particular... Even local Thai CPAs and lawyers may not understand the new tax rules unless they have advanced training and experience in taxation. As for trusting RD officials to give you the correct advice - in general not a good idea anywhere in the world.... Exceptions exist maybe a tax specialist in the national office may be involved in reseraching and or writing a new law - they could be a source of information but not always...
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On 10/12/2023 at 8:49 PM, topt said:
Please correct me if wrong but my understanding that the online process is in Thai only? I think even the paper record is Thai only (certainly was to reclaim tax withheld on bank interest).
If so how many foreigners will be able to circumnavigate the forms even with the help of a significant other...........
Why not hire a CPA? Not expensive...
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19 minutes ago, BritTim said:
If that is what the rental agreement specifies, it is all perfectly legal. Fwiiw, it is the most common kind of long term rental agreement in Thailand.
Perhaps he is relatively new to renting in hotels longer than a short stay? As for houses in beach towns I have no idea what is standard then or now as this was in Chiang Mai and in a nice hotel not a beach house...
As for a flat rate with no extra electricity being better - anything is possible but it is unlikely to be true as the hotel would need to cover themselves for those who use lots of air-conditioning, and those who don't use a lot would be over charged - simple math...
There was no scamming going on and the poster presented zero evidence of the hotel scamming anyone perhaps he owes the hotel an apology?
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6 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:
Yes cobber your not Robinson Crusoe in wanting final Regulations! I reckon we LTR will be ok (I'm keeping that email from LTR saying we are in the clear) and the RD won't want thousands of Farangs on the other Visas in their office at tax time arguing the toss over DTAs et al.
But I think we may never get that final Regulation we all seek and deliberately so. As Churchill said :
"It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma"
They will want voluntary tax returns from most and only go after the ones that are remitting a lot of coin into Thailand on non LTR Visas. I may be wrong but I may be right!
I agree I think we will be OK or mostly so...
America has a DTA with Thailand so Social Security should be Ok no matter what the law says. Income from past years should be OK for LTR visas.
Lets see going forward about current year overseas income going to Thailand - but it shouldn't be a big issue either way for us.
Churchill had some flaws but also some great quotes!
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5 hours ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:
Then you have been scammed.
Actually - the opposite I got a great rate, good service and nothing stolen etc.
The way it worked was that it was a normal middle class hotel - clean, safe etc but not luxury and they had normal market rates for normal stays - but for extended stays they gave you a discount on the normal rate but charged for electricity as you used it so for those not in the room a lot using lots of air-conditioning very low price for those using the air nonstop a bit higher.
What would make you think that fair rates are a scam?
Note I have not used a hotel in Thailand in over 20 years as I have a house now but in the past it was very normal for extended stays...
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14 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:
Sorry mate. “…. only exempt for income that does not come into Thailand”?
Shouldn’t that be “only exempt for overseas income that does come into Thailand”? I know any Thai income will be taxed at at the usual rate in Thailand but the Pensioner LTR proclaims that overseas income can be brought in Tax Free as long as it’s the following Tax year (as per Royal Decree 743).
Can you clarify matey?
Yes you are correct overseas income that does not come to Thailand is not taxed and old income probably won't be taxed per 743...
I would really like for final regulations taht are clear to be issued!
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13 minutes ago, BritTim said:
I am not an expert but, especially if the transfer was done when not in Thailand, it might be legal tax avoidance. Presumably, they would not demand income tax on all funds used to purchase Thai products and services while outside Thailand.
Good thinking and what if I didn't send it but my mother gifted the tuition to my kids?
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2 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:
Good point cobber. I’ve had my LTR over a year so am covered but newbies should wait until next year.
Very interesting! Late now so I will think about this tomorrow.
Another thought my main Thai expense is international school for two kids. I live on a simple farm and have an old car and rarely go out...
What if I send money for school directly from America to the school? Just a thought...
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OK another update from the visa guy who talked with the BOI today the Pension visa is only exempt for overseas income taht does not come into Thailand....
For now - who knows what will happen next year...!
how about a tax avoiidance topic
in Jobs, Economy, Banking, Business, Investments
Posted
Judge Learned Hand, wrote: “Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.”
Hand was an American appellate judge who also studied philosophy at Harvard a long time ago - the key point is avoidance is simply organizing your taxes legally under the law.
What is your fair share is another topic and could take many people a long time to decide and still everyone won't agree...
Also what are morals? So many different views...