BAF
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Not so long ago Thailand attracted adventure tourists who saw Bangkok as a gateway to all of Southeast Asia. Now the typical traveller seems more concerned about the quality of the fixtures in the lavatories and lighting. Times change quickly.
Well, those were the kind of tourists the powers that be don't seem to want anymore (verbatim from past officials: "unwanted, miserable, low quality tourists")!
Aren't you yourself always complaining about the "low quality" of your fellow "farangs" in Thailand? Well, guess what, "quality tourists" aren't going to quietly put up with 3rd world quality of goods and services at 1st world prices...
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To say that Australia and NZ try to attract all classes of tourist is pure hogwash. If you look at it objectively, Australia have an even more cold hearted and business like in its approach to tourism than Thailand.
[...]
Australia's favourite targets are the asian package tourist, the family, the back packer (spend lots and lots these guys) and the well off retiree.
So who exactly are the ones Australia is keeping away and how are they keeping them away?
I wish Thailand had the same "cold hearted and business like approach to tourism" (and immigration laws!) as Australia!!!!
And Australian "cold hearted and business like" ETA visas would be another MAJOR welcome improvement for Thailand as well! Just imagine being able to instantly get ONLINE and without having to submit your passport (and visiting twice a Thai embassy/consulate) a 90 days Thai tourist visa for 530 Baht (or free through a travel agency)!!
We can only dream that one day Thailand will become as "cold hearted and business like" as Australia...
P.S. I wonder how do you define a scheme (almost unique in the world) such as the Thai ELITE Card? Is it Australian inspired?
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- money spent say in sex tourism encourages sectors of the economy to develop which are like a cancer; as anyone with a brain can see the money going into the sex industry in Thailand feeds a lot of cash into a money spiral including drugs, booze, gambling and other vice; much of the money does not go into economically viable projects at all - YES it is a necessary part of any country's economy, but overreliance on this is part of the reason that Isaan is now a total mess -by earning relatively easy money many people in that region have not developed any other skills, leaving them working as service providers on their backs, meea farang or similar, and not forcing the region to develop areas of core competence of greater value. Tourism and the sex industry are a nice crutch, but the longer one leans on it, the more reliant one becomes on it. And of course, the negative impact on the family tourism market is part of that mutually exclusive issue; that's merely marketing 101; basic market segmentation
I tought it was an ascertained fact here on ThaiVisa that sextourism is an almost insignificant part of the tourism in its entirety and certainly of the whole of the Thai economy (despite what Thai official stats themselves say...).
And weren't you yourself one of those saying that foreigners overestimate themselves and their impact on Thailand, its economy and its society? So, image when we are talking about just a supposedly minor subset (sextourists) of those same foreigners... no?
Now you are saying that sextourists and sexpats have deeply influenced Thailand's bigger region and Thailand's economy is heavily influenced by its effects...
P.S. "money spent say in sex tourism encourages sectors of the economy to develop which are like a cancer" the sex industry catering to foreigners is but a small part of the whole Thailand's sex industry... The rest of your "analisys" is based on the same level of knowledge shown here.
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fallang is just a forigener as i stated before.
BS, farang is a slangish term which wouldn't be condoned in the West.
Real, proper Thai terms are:
Foreigner = kon taang-chat
Westerner = kon tawan-tok
Tourist = nak-ton-tiao
It's clear you aren't used to hear them, highdiver... I wonder why.
P.S. And "farang" isn't a slang term for "foreigner" anyway. It refers to a RACE (Caucasian). Foreigners of other races are called with other race-based terms, they aren't called "farangs".
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"Since I don't usually eat Thai food (nor in LOS nor in my homecountry) I can't comment much but in Italy a Thai meal costs less than a Thai meal in a comparable restaurant in Thailand (the comparison comes directly from my wife)."
What?
The Thai meals which are cheaper in Bangkok are those cooked and sold on the pavement or in the lower class of restaurants (the ones whose standards, hygiene etc wouldn't be allowed in the West).
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mmm... where exactly in Italy do you get your prices from?
I wrote where, Milano and Roma. Prices for the Thai rice and the insurance of my car is for my 45,000 pop hometown (the rice would be less in a bigger city, the insurance slightly more).
Which of my quoted prices do you disagree on?
admittedly, Italian food on a quality per price comparison with London is still better, but last time I was there I was being charged for the air I breathed.Examples?
And yes, London must be now one of the most expensive cities on the planet - even my brother in Tokyo thinks so.Exactly. And you get the same Western standards you get in London pretty much everywhere in the West for much better prices so if all Bangkok can hope for is to be cheaper than London (for a much lower standard of goods and services)... well, it says it all no?
All these London based guys who praise Bangkok prices should be praising other Western cities prices instead, where for less money than in London they would get the same quality as in London.
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The chemicals do worry me a bit to be honest.
But it's 3 beers. For 100b.
Exactly the OP's point. You get a better deal in Bangkok if you are willing to compromise on the quality of what you get.
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i spoke with a friend from the local police about this and he said that the driver storry sounded different.
How come the driver's story was so well known to your police friend since they had no idea even where he was?
he took the tourist to the hotel afte they agreed on the price and when they got there the tourists try to make a run with out paying him. he then confronted them and had a fight. at some point 2 others joined in and he was taking a beating from them.he then reurned to the car got a knife and went to close the deal... 1 thai against 4 tourists.
"Close the deal", exactly. Even if he was in the right (and it appears he wasn't) he was being beaten "so badly" by 4 tourists that he easily managed to get back in the car (and could have driven away at this point or gone to call the police), get the knife and almost kill those 4 dangerous tourists.
He was beaten so bad that he comfortably spent the night in a hotel while his "attackers" were having blood transfusions having had to be MEDEVACed to a Bangkok hospital...
I guess the reason it is not headlined is that it has nothing to do with tourists its got to do with 4 idiots that tried to scam a thai and suffered the consequeces.Are you warning your visiting "farang" friends that in Thailand the penalty for arguing with a Thai (no matter who is in the right) is death?
fallang is just a forigener as i stated before.BS, farang is a slangish term which wouldn't be condoned in the West.
Real, proper Thai terms are:
Foreigner = kon taang-chat
Westerner = kon tawan-tok
Tourist = nak-ton-tiao
It's clear you aren't used to hear them, highdiver... I wonder why.
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Will i still be able to get 3 chang for 100b in Khonburi?
Oh yeah, forgot about the beer...
In a Rome or Milan mall a sixpack of "cheap" Italian brews (Peroni, Nastro Azzurro, Birra Moretti etc) cost around the same of a sixpack of the "best" Thai brews (Singha and Chang) in a Bangkok mall...
...and I don't have to worry about dangerous chemicals and addictives.
I don't comment about the taste since it's a personal matter, I personally like Italian brews much better and would LOVE to be able to drink them in Thailand's bars and nightclubs.
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Someone said that Bangkok is getting like London!!!
I live in a nice part of London not the best and a way from the worst.
A one bedroom flat 16.5 million baht and rising which is ten times the average wage
Let's try again, just a couple of examples: how often do you find yourself dodging motocys racing on the potholed sidewalks in London? How often do you see unsecured high voltage wires hanging a few feet over your head in London?
And how would you compare the crowding, the smells, the noise, the pollution, the dirtiness?
This is the point of this thread and Stickman's. Getting in Bangkok the same quality as in London or New York for a given product or service usually means they cost equal or MORE and when you are getting in Bangkok a cheaper price than in London or New York for a given product or service usually means that you are getting a worse quality...
an average Thai meal with one beer each no dessert 2760 baht
Since I don't usually eat Thai food (nor in LOS nor in my homecountry) I can't comment much but in Italy a Thai meal costs less than a Thai meal in a comparable restaurant in Thailand (the comparison comes directly from my wife).
2 bottles of beer in a pub 490baht
How much are you paying for 2 bottles of beer in a pub in Thailand? Same brand? If not, how do you rate the one you usually drink in Thailand compared to the one you usually drink in the UK?
5 takeaway sandwich lunches for work 1200baht
Do you find the same or comparable sandwiches in Thailand? How much are they?
5 takaway "paninis" (think about Subway quality) are 400-700 baht in Italy in every bakery/grocery stores (they make them before you on your instructions, again think about Subway). It's CHEAPER and TASTIER than Bangkok.
1 bus ride 140 baht
Much cheaper in Thailand but would you compare the buses themselves and their service in London with what you find in Bangkok??
Do you usually take buses in Bangkok like you do in London? Why?
BTW, an "integrated ticket" with 75 minutes of unlimited bus and trams rides plus 1 subway ride from whichever station to whichever station is 45 Baht in Milan (around 55 baht in Rome, IIRC) MUCH CHEAPER than Bangkok and much higher quality of service (the subway+skytrain systems are much newer and more modern -and much more expensive- in Bangkok but the bus system is simply from a world apart compared to Milan's bus+tram systems).
council tax 100,000 baht per year
Not comparable with Bangkok I agree, then again look at the Bangkok infrastructure and services and London's...
just owning a car (tax insurance parking permit) 60,000 per year - does not include hp payments, petrol, servicing and wear and tear
Since you are not telling what car you have we can't compare but a typical 3.0L pickup with a good coverage can approach or pass that sum.
BTW in Italy with an online insurance company I am paying Baht 16,000/year including many optional coverages which are simply not available in Thailand. Annual road tax for my car is Baht 6500/year and would be around Baht 4000 in Thailand. A good coverage in Thailand is around 5-6% of the values of the car so in my case that would be Baht 33800/in Thailand...
Servicing my car in Italy is costlier than Thailand (but the spares are usually cheaper) but the service (and the warranty on the work done) is simply not comparable...
New cars cost around the same and often less in Italy (pickups excluded which have a very small market here), used cars cost much less and middle and luxury cars cost MUCH MUCH less. AFAIK it's about the same in the UK and it's certainly the same in France and Germany.
cinema 550 baht
Much cheaper in Thailand, then again I don't get the movie cut in movie theathers here (agree it doesn't happen in BKK but in the provinces does) or censored/edited and people don't usually talk among themselves or on the phones. And the ones who do are are quickly "put in their place"...
BTW 300-400 in Italy, some weekdays evenings are 150 baht...
dvd hire 275
dvd purchase 1200 baht
Much cheaper in BKK but in London I suppose you are renting original good quality disks not cheap low quality copies as it too often happens in LOS...
BTW renting DVDs with subscription cards it can work out practically the same price here in Italy that it is in Bangkok (with subscription cards as well).
DVD purchases (original) are the same price and oftentimes less (not to talk about the choice I have here and don't have in Bangkok).
massage ( 1 hour) 3450 baht
One area where Thailand wins on all counts, then again the cost is mainly labour here and we have already talked about it...
BTW, the costs in the better (legit) massage places in BKK are the same and even more but I can't compare since I don't know what you get in London for 3450 Baht.
tee shirt 700 baht+
pair of levi jeans 4140 baht
The same which applies to DVD applies here as well...
I don't know what kind of T-shirts (brand, quality) you are talking about but Levi's jeans are 2000/3500 Baht here. I think they cost more in BKK (not sure since I have never bought apparel in Thailand besides dirt cheap "disposable" clothing which is available in Italy as well anyway for just slightly more)
1kg jasmine rice 140 baht
Much cheaper in Thailand (20 Baht/kg?).
My wife is paying 65 baht/kg here in Italy (she buys 25 kgs sacks).
Just a small selection of prices. Yes I know the earning capacity is higher and relative costs are different but I find my costs are less than half when I am in Bkk.
I doubt about "less than half" (you haven't quoted the Thai equivalent prices) but are you getting the same as in London? This is the whole point.
And please bear in mind that London is one of the most expensive cities in the world. Almost all of the other Western cities where you find the exact same Western standard of goods and services are MUCH CHEAPER than London. In other words, your costs would be "less than half" even in some Western cities and maintaining the same Western standards as in London which you simply don't find in Thailand...
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So... let me get this straight.
In your world, there are two options for immigration policies. Italian or Thai. There is no compromise, there is no other option, it is one of the other.
Is that correct??
NO.
Italy's immigration policies are in line with all the rest of the Western countries and Thailand's immigration policies are in line with many 3th and 4th world countries (by no means ALL and possibly not even MOST since MANY of them have much more liberal, tolerant, advanced and human policies).
There are other variations, several "shades of grey" so to speak. But it seems obvious to me that regarding issues like granting PR/citizenship to spouses of a country's citizens or allowing them to own land there aren't that many choices. Either you do or you don't...
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Hey BAF
Hey steveromagnino, sorry for the delay in replying. Board rules prevent me to tell you the reason why, suffice to say it wasn't up to me....
You are right, I don't use message board much; thanks for that tip about search function; it is pretty good! It didn't exactly return everything but I have attempted to grab all your key questions to me and right at the start. It only seems to return one post - but I've done my best to grab out your questions!
Probably you selected to show the results as threads (which I think is the default) and not as single posts.
'Doesn't Thailand exempt foreign women married to their Thai men tee-rak they met on a beach bar somewhere from PR requirements making it much easier for them to get citizenship?'
Not that I am aware of; foreign women have to go through the same steps as men do; my ex girlfriend who was Japanese for instance was unable to get PR because she didn't work even though she had been here 9 years.
You haven't really read what I wrote: foreign women married to their Thai men don't need to get PR (which as I said and you and your friends have seen for yourselves is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT) before applying for citizenship.
'Moreover, once you get your PR after your first 3 years in thailand () do Thailand allow PRs (and citizenship later on) for all of the foreign components of your family you may have with you (for example, children from a previous marriage)?'
Why do you have some kids ler?
1. Why, do you only care about yourself?
2. This thread isn't about me
3. I may have them in a not so distant future (I am planning ahead like you and Heng are recommending to do)
AFAIK no, Thailand does not give you PR for all foreign components; each must apply individually.
Toddlers "applying individually"?!?
Exactly the same as Singapore (a country richer and more developed than Italy, as an example)
I haven't asked about Singapore (whose system I ignore and which doesn't interest me). Incidentally, Singapore, for this and many other reasons, has a long way to go to reach Italy's civil and social development... What you probably meant to say is that it has a higher GDP/PC at USD 20.690 against Italy's USD 19.080. BTW, France is only slightly ahead and Australia is behind like Italy and New Zealand and Spain are FAR behind. Economic indicators (BTW, once PPP adjusted Italy is still ahead of Singapore anyway) aren't the only measure of a country's overall development. If they were, amongst the world' models of development Brunei and the United Arab Emirates would be right there at the top... Is this what you are saying?
Besides, weren't these kind of arguments being used by the SBDTAs (Smiling Blind Daydreaming Thai Apologists) to show how Thailand was overall much better than Singapore (this was before Thailand turned into a worse dicatorship than Sillypore, of course...)
'The 100 PRs per nationality limit as opposed to the 2,800,000 legal migrants today in Italy (a country of roughly the same size as Thailand) should make you realize Thailand's racist and xenophobic stance towards immigration but that seems out of your reach, never mind.'
citizenship granted + 100 PR per year per nationality vs. 2.8m total legal immigrants (all having PR and having acquired it in one year all coming from one country) would be the correct comparison. Obviously, you have never worked in research; your logic is indeed beyond my reach :-).
If you are going to consider the total sum of those who have acquired Thai citizenship and those who hold PR in Thailand you should compare it to the total sum of those 2.8m legal immigrants (ALL of which have got/are getting PR and citizenship since there aren't numerical limits as in Thailand) and those who have already acquired Italian citizenship. The difference in favor of Italy would be even more staggering.
In other words, to make it simpler for you to understand:
for Italy, add 2,800,000 to the (millions of) foreigners with Italian citizenship
for Thailand, add those with Thai citizenship (how many??) to those with PR (how many??) to 100 PR per nationality for the next 5 years (hypothesizing all those eligible will aply and all will be granted it). Why the next 5 years? In the next 5 years ALL of those 2,800,000 will have got PR (and who knows how many more will have entered Italy but let's set this aside for a moment...).
Of course: we could simply compare only the ones who have already got their citizenship and PR (and the difference in favor of Italy would be equally overwhelming) but that would ignore the fundamental reality that ALL of those already legally residing in Italy ARE going to get PR and citizenship.
Obviously, you have never worked in research...
Each country gets 100...what could be fairer than that?! Actually, I agree with you somewhat, the policy is somewhat silly and shortsighted; however I am not the planner deciding who is worthwhile and who is not.
Yes, you are only the one trying to defend it...
If I was in charge, it would be a fair bit stricter, but with financial payouts to skilled working migrants. As it is now, there doesn't seem to be a short queue of idiots and winners wanting to come in... in fact the main reason why we are having this conversation is simply that your personal circumstances don't fit the criteria and you aren't willing to either sacrifice 4 days a year to renew OR to start doing some work because the idea of working here is not intersting to you here.
The main reason we are having this conversation is simply that being the (young and wealthy) spouse of a Thai national and/or the father of Thai citizens isn't a reason good enough to being allowed to live together with one's family in one's spouses's and children's homecountry.
Why you should be forced to work when you don't have to??
And NB, I wouldn't be "sacrificing 4 days a year to renew", I would be sacrificing my and my family's peace of mind, safety and stability (letting alone the practical hassles and disruption to one's life those once every 90 days visa runs mean)...
It seems you are the type of person who would build his family's future around 90 days visa runs. Well, I am not.
I do agree, the policy could do with some tweaks; and gave you a list of things YOU could do to change it; sadly you have ignored all of those ideas in favour of complaining on line to anyone that will listen; a group that is shrinking as this thread dies.
You haven't told me about anything I didn't knew about. I have clearly listed from the start all of the possibilities open to me and none of them translate into the stability and security a family needs.
You are proposing 90 days visa runs. Please keep these kind of ridiculous advices to you and your friends.
'So how come non-working pensioners have the easiest time of all..?'
I am sure you can look up all manner of information; however since I know plenty of foreigners who claim living here and working legally to be an absolute breeze (if a bit annoying to have to meet a lawyer once a year) I would have to add that for most expats working here legally, it isn't exactly tough. Let's just say....for many non foreigners the existing restrictions are far from taxing.
Very well but the question still stands there, unanswered: how come non-working pensioners have the easiest time of all if the fundamental underlying reasons for the present immigration laws are those you hypothesized?
May I refresh your memory? "Thailand is only interested in people working, so no coming in with a massive wad of cash these days and buying a big house."
For others, such as yourself, the restrictions are unbearable (for you) -tough to say who has it easiest. For a retiree without the necessary income, the bar would be unbearably high.
"INCOME"?!? All they have to have is 800k baht sitting in a bank... And they have the least paperwork and hassles to go through to boot.
I do agree that there should be some sort of retirement visa for people under 50; in this case age is being used as a proxy for need to work; like using a sledgehammer to squash a mouse.
<deleted> are you doing replying and trying to confute my arguments when you are still undecided yourself if you actually agree or disagree with them?!?
To quote you: "your logic is indeed beyond my reach"...
Much like the case of illegal immigration by 10%+ of Thais say in NZ resulting in a change that ALL Thais had to now get a VISA in advance, and the VISA on arrival was rescinded. (estimated based on the 1999 arrival data given to me at the NZ embassy; where they stated that around 2,000 illegal overstayers were caught out of a total of around 22,000 total visas on arrival issued to Thais). You don't seem to have any problem with such an approach to issuing visas (and neither do I); why can you not accept you are on the flip side of the same point now???
Because these two are completely different and unrelated situations! It's disconcerting and somewhat worrying that you can't see it by yourself...
The new NZ regs weren't designated to STOP those Thai visitors but the overstayers and the visa reqs are designed to prove at least that you aren't likely to overstay (because of your reasons for visiting and your financial situation).
Now draw the parallel with my situation and the new regs (no more 400k in the bank but 40k/month income). If the reason was to stop those illegally working (is this the reason, steveromagnino?) why aren't they asking for proofs that I am regularly sending and spending into the country my money from abroad? Why haven't they got serious with Thai employers who illegally employ foreigners and continue to do so practically with total impunity??
Incidentally, you had your chance with the investment VISA and you didn't take it.
Yeah too bad you lost your one chance now say hello to your wife and children and f.uck off back home, right?
And besides, nothing is written in stone here... A problem with an annual extension and you're out or you may simply be denied to be grandfathered next year like it's happening with those supporting Thai children or is mooted to be going to happen for those still using the 400k in the bank...
Times change. Be careful not to overestimate your own value - there are probably people posting here in this very thread that are richer, bigger spenders, bigger tax payers and probably more willing to devote time to helping others....than you. Just having money is far from the be all and end all of immigration - NZ went through that lesson years ago.
Ahem... it isn't me the one maintaining that having money is the be all and end all of immigration...
Have you followed my advice and actually read the thread before posting yet another reply here?
Well i know of about 10 that i can think of whose timing I know, and a total of around 50 non Thais (men and women) who have acquired citizenship; I know of another perhaps 20? with PR.
It takes me a (short) walk to a local "ethnic" market to meet as many PR and citizenship holders as the ones you have met in all of your life in Thailand...Apparently being married and working plus speaking Thai and having contributed something to Thai society are looked upon favourably.
Nope, the real key is WORKING in Thailand.
How many men do you know holding PR or citizenship who have never worked/had business in Thailand?
How many men do you know holding PR or citizenship who have got them by annual extensions of stay based on marriage (not possible anymore without working anyway) or retirement?
By way of comparison, NZ requires 5 years with PR (during which there are considerable restrictions on travel, language test, etc) before being able to apply to become a citizen. To get PR takes additional time beyond that; I don't know of anyone recently that has done it; I think (but am not 100% sure) that it is an application and perhaps a year of processing. So...total about 6 years or more. To get citizenship as the result of marrying a New Zealand in theory can be as short as 2 years,
We are moving the focus on the lenght of the process, eh..? So, what's the average lenght of time those very many PR and CT holders you know have had to wait to get their PRs and CTs?
but can be denied as can PR or even access to the country; it is not a given right AFAIK.
"AFAIK" being the operative word here...
Again, test of language, good character etc. This is shortened down to 2 years with marriage, hence the rash of mail order marriages leading to NZ's fine status as a whoremeister town. Great role model.
Are you saying that Western countries shouldn't grant PR and citizenship to their citizens' spouses (and their spouses' children) any more?
BTW, besides it being deeply discriminatory and sexist, shouldn't Thailand stop favoring Thai men's foreign wifes since it's supposed to encourage/facilitate "marriages of convenience"..?
BTW, lest you think 6-10 years here is unbearable....I found this at MPI, which gets us a little closer to a fairer comparison:
'Despite a relatively restrictive naturalization policy that requires, among other things, 10 years of residence, more foreigners are choosing to assume Italian nationality. The number of naturalizations has increased steadily from 7,442 in 1995 to 11,570 in 1999. More than 84 percent of the naturalizations are due to marriage with an Italian citizen. With more than a decade of steady increases in immigration, the country is likely to witness many more naturalizations'
From the same website:
In 1985, the number of foreign-born people in Italy holding a residence permit was estimated at approximately 423,000. By 1991, that number had more than doubled, reaching 896,800. In 2000, the foreign population had reached nearly 1,388,200, with some 850,700 immigrants in Italy for employment reasons. Morocco and Albania combined account for more than 20 percent of the stock of the foreign population in 2000, but there have been some shifts in other, smaller populations. For example, South Americans and immigrants from China continue to increase in numbers.Despite a relatively restrictive naturalization policy that requires, among other things, 10 years of residence, more foreigners are choosing to assume Italian nationality. The number of naturalizations has increased steadily from 7,442 in 1995 to 11,570 in 1999. More than 84 percent of the naturalizations are due to marriage with an Italian citizen. With more than a decade of steady increases in immigration, the country is likely to witness many more naturalizations.
Persons married to Italian citizens get naturalized in 6 months, Eu citizens in 4 years, stateless persons in 5 years, all the rest in 10 years. "Relatively restrictive naturalization policy" with respect to where?? Thailand?
In 2000 1,388,200 foreigners had PR which means that at the latest by 2005 ALL of them could be naturalized Italian. The most recent data that site has for naturalization is for 1999 and taking note of the pattern of the booming in immigration in the years considered you can easily figure out the rest...
Seems like Italy isn't that easy either; compare that number to NZ for instance. 84% due to marriage with foreigners....
Yes, in 1999 in case you haven't noticed...
10 years is about on par with Thailand....consider your point blown out of the water for the non married segment
1. in Italy EVERYBODY gets naturalized Italian at the latest after 10 years in Italy (spouses of Italian citizens get naturalized in 6 months, Eu citizens in 4 years, stateless persons in 5 years
whe gets naturalized Thai after 10 years), in Thailand it's at maximum 100 per nationality per year since the prerequisite is having PR and PR is limited to 100 per nationality per year.
2. amongst the few lucky (and, like in most cases, wealthy and/or well connected) ones who get naturalized who really gets it in 10 years?? I knew of a couple and they both managed to get it in slightly more than 15 years...
- or are you so self serving you only want to talk about the people in your own position of married, rich, not wanting to work and expecting equal treatment I note you haven't mentioned the Bossi-Fini Law; which apparently puts in a whole bunch of new restrictions; is that still in place over there? Seems like (and I admit Thailand's laws are xenophobic) Italy has a dose of xenophobia too.
"Apparently"... "seems"... Do you ever talk about something you actually know about? The changes the Bossi-Fini law (which has already been mentioned in this thread) introduced were aimed at better fighting the illegal immigration so it has nothing to do with legal immigrants. It seems even highdiver got it...
'Dismissing this like just something BAF is interested in means, besides other things, ignoring the plight of families risking to be split and children to be forced out of their homecountry/abandoned.
It's distustingly inhuman. It's the 3rd world.'
And yet you can easily come here and have to go through the inhumanity of either working, leaving every 90 days a MASSIVE burden of 4 DAYS PER YEAR, or set up a small company that enables you to pass some income through it, pay tax and allow you to stay for the monster set up cost of probably less than 1/100th of your frequently commented upon (by you) net worth!
What does the cheating of Thai laws my money makes possible have to do with the plight of those without my net worth?
Looking beyond one person's plight........ there are countless families split up for various reasons which are far more tragic than your own unwillingness to work; e.g. in NZ a pop star retiree was denied PR having already spent 1m+ dollars on his house because he had a pacemaker; his wife however was given PR. Families with disabled children are routinely denied PR to avoid being a drain on the system and this is fairly standard. The lack of sympathy, oh the inhumanity of it all.
<deleted> are you on? It seems you are talking about families wholly made up of foreigners!
Moreover, Italy and AFAIK most Western countries DON'T deny PR because of pacemakers and disabilities and can you please point out to me some sources showing NZ laws denying PR to persons with pacemakers and disabilities..?
Do you even have any children BTW or is this an entirely theoretical situation designed to somehow prove that Thailand is unreasonable?
I don't have one in this exact moment but it's of course only natural to presume that I will have one in the not too distant future (especially, you know, since IT'S PLANNED) so that, besides being further proof of Thailand's inhumanity, isn't just a theoretical situation at all...
If it is the latter, then YES I agree Thailand has some fairly strict laws in place, which are necessary as Thailand has unfortunately not got the pulling power for the world's winners as say the USA might have.
And the reasons for that is exactly this kind of culture which produces this kind of laws... They (and you) can't see it and that's why they aren't going to have that "pulling power for the world's winners" anytime soon...
Again, the intent is right, but the execution is probably a little heavy handed.
The intent isn't clear (let alone right) at all, you have no idea of their intents and you are failing to prove whatever it is that you want to prove!
1. You previously said that the reason for the last changes in their immi laws is they want working people not that they want to stop the world's losers from coming here.
2. You failed to prove even this theory (they want working people) since you aren't explaining how come non-working pensioners have it the most easy of all.
You say so yourself that :
'Funny you say that, many folks back in the first world would think of ANYONE voluntarily choosing to live in a third world country as a "loser"... '
Yes and with the 3rd world thinking behind their immigration and foreign business laws they do nothing but reinforce their status and everyone's opinion of them!
Yet ironically, you are the one wanting to talk about living here coming from the first world! I wonder whether you are one of the 'many folks' you speak of 5555555555555
Reading the thread (likely for the first time) you may discover that I have a Thai wife...
Do you think that a vanilla single flavour immigration policy around the world would work, when it is obvious to anyone that country policies already differ markedly in land ownership, rights, dual citizenship, handling same sex relationships, refugee handling, etc etc? Or is it simply that you wish Thailand would have the same policies as Italy?
If they want to keep themselves in the third world with their immigration and foreign business laws they are free to go ahead but immigration laws about spouses and parents of ANY country's citizens definitely should follow the same basic human rights principles. No question about it.
Surely each country offers different attractions, and therefore should develop an immigration policy that matches what they wish to acheive. For instance, NZ has a brain drain, and therefore encourages working educated affluent, and actually gets loads of non working rich ;-( Thailand wants skilled labour, not louts...we already have a ton of louts! This is a country's right, and any sane, logical person would consider such issues in deciding where to live, as you have done in deciding that despite being a European millionaire and extolling the virtues of Italy, that you would like to like and work as a nurse in USA, since you did not take up the opportunity for an investment visa when it was available, and refuse to set up a company to pay tax enabling you to stay OR to actually work.
If they want to keep themselves in the third world with their immigration and foreign business laws they are free to go ahead but immigration laws about spouses and parents of ANY country's citizens definitely should follow the same basic human rights principles. No question about it.
'True, I hear if it wasn't for Thailand's open doors policy Gates and Buffet would have already made the move...'
Most amusing. have you read a list of the millionaires and billionaires that spend time here; some even buying property? hel_l, we have a few sportsmen, business people and stars living in some of the developments I consult to. They don't seem to be having trouble with Thai immigration law. Now with regards to actually working here; well I don't see Gates and Buffet living and working in Italy either...no idea what point you are trying to make here.
Let's go a small step at a time OK?: does Thailand now have an "open door" policy? What kind of people is it attracting? Why?
And about those "millionaires and billionaires that spend time here"... Are they moving here or spending any significant amount of time here? Are they consistently (as in in significant numbers) asking for PR and citizenship?
'You mean New Zealand doesn't grant PR and citizenship to spouses and parents of New Zealanders?'
No. AFAIK NZ does not give PR to parents of NZers. It is far easier for spouses but not entirely automatic; far easier than Thailand for instance.
"The objective of Family Category policy is to allow individuals to maintain and be part of a family unit, while reinforcing the governments overall objectives in immigration policy. The category is therefore broken up into a number of sub-categories including spouse and de-facto partner policy, parent policy, dependent child policy, adult sibling and adult child policy.
Applicants seeking approval under the De Facto Partner policy (which includes homosexual relationships) will only be eligible for the grant of residence once the Principal Applicant has been living with the New Zealand citizen or resident spouse for a minimum of 12 months. However, an application for residence may be lodged with the INZ prior to the 12 month qualifying period and a decision will then be deferred until the couple have met the requisite 12 month period."
The only "tough" requirements are those which apply to parents of ADULT NZers...
Seeing how well you are (NOT) informed about NZ laws I am even more interested in those sources about denying PR to spouses and children on the basis of pacemakers and disabilities...
BTW just FYI in the interests of pointing out some more interesting points about NZ, up until 1987 NZ had a favouritism policy, to ensure a larger number of white people came to NZ than non whites; just 50 years ago my own grandparents and mother paid a poll tax, a penalty, for being not white, when they went to NZ. There is a points scheme test; BTW my guess is that given what you have described, you would be unable to migrate to NZ at all with your unwillingness to work unless you were married to a New Zealander.
Well, since you are interested in history (not the topic of this thread) in 1987 Thailand was still stripping citizen's rights off its own FEMALE citizens who married foreigners...
Excuse me if it appears "somewhat" bigger to me than trying to control the social balance and making up of a very small country of just 4 million people (today, how many in 1987?), less than 80% of whom were "whites"...
'3. Nice gateway? Yes. Ever opened a world atlas and seen how Italy is positioned with respect to the sources of much of that illegal immigration and the rest of the Western Europe? No, I guess...'
Yep, as far as I can tell, Italy is about in the middle; yes it has a lot of problems controlling illegal immigration because it is a magnet for people wanting to come in and work and earn cash. Same as THailand has a problem with large numbers of non productive people wanting to come here. Both countries are taking steps to control their respective problems.
You may want to recheck about Italian laws and their enforcement upon Italian employers of illegal immigrants and the corresponding situation in Thailand...
Thailand IS NOT trying seriously to stop illegal immigrants, it's just exploiting them as much as it can.
And even when those migrant workers are LEGAL, Thailand laws are designed to exploit them as much as possible and then send them back home (not even "theoretical" PR and citizenship for Burmese, Laotians, Cambodians etc).
Part of Italy's problem also stems from the reality that actually becoming legal is, according to immigration forums, relatively taxing, combined with a relatively low chance of getting caught.
True, Italian police aren't busting into condos to check everyone's passport nor are they checking every foreigner's passport when they randomly lock up entire discos to piss test everyone (another thing they don't do)... Are you suggesting they should start imitating Thailand?
But sure, feel free to comment on my knowledge of geography - Italy is not exactly very relevant or interesting to me - economically, culturally or in sport.
So you haven't any interest in arts, literature, architecture, history, fashion, design, sport cars, football, motorcycling, cuisine, apparel etc etc etc
Well, since you know so little about Italy you might find it strange to learn that as a G7 member Italy is rather important (economically and politically) to quite a few people, countries and economies...
I'd hate to think Thailand actually would even consider Italy as a role model for anything when there are so many better choices that are a whole lot more relevant!
You mean Singapore, Brunei and the United Arab Emirates?
Your main point:
'I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.'
Please let us know when you choose to do that; after all it is your own suggestion regarding what you would have to lose in doing so:
'Reciprocating Thailand's (among other things) immi and ownership rules it is (or should be...) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)? '
Whether Thailand welcomes or doesn't welcome tourists and foreigners....well you only need look at the numbers of tourist visitors (and resulting damage to the country) plus eager queue of foreigners wanting to come here to do various jobs (some good some bad) to know that supply of foreigners is not the issue. In other words...I think the officials will still be able to sleep tight knowing you went to USA instead of coming here :-)
1. when have tourists come into the equation?
2. if they are so damaging why are they still trying to attract them in ever bigger numbers?
3. isn't the damage the tourism industry does due to the Thais, their laws and their practices?
4. How are you answering the question: "Reciprocating Thailand's (among other things) immi and ownership rules it is (or should be...) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)?"
BTW please let me know your budget for living on the 'average wage' that you have in mind here in Thailand; I could really do with a laugh of how a millionaire prefers to slum it. You sound very similar to my mother in that regard :-) You honestly think that 40,000b a month is too much to live on???? Mate, i have a lot of respect for someone willing to give up the basics in life; other than rice farmers who have no income (but can collect food and so on) living on 1/7th of 40,000b for 2 people....man good luck!
How do you manage to misread pretty much everything you read?
I used to spend an average of 150,000 baht/month and I have never said that 40,000b a month is too much to live on nor that I would like to live on it. This DOES NOT mean that it isn't possible to live on much less, proof is that the average Thai is living on 7700 baht/month... Should the UN urgently be sending humanitarian aids to help feeding the starving Thais?
In the countryside there are many older folks who help entire extented families on 25,000-35,000 baht/month and who quietly and happily go about their lives... Their single biggest expense and worry is keeping themselves legal.
I really think that you have lost touch with what the reality of life still is in most of Thailand (if you have ever had a clue, that is).
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Where I am not running the risk to be wheeled out of the country when I can't jump through the hoops anymore.
IS IT ITALY OR THAILAND, meemiathai?!?
Thailand! BAF!
In Thailand I am required to show annually a certifiable combined monthly income of FIVE TIMES the Thai average, now show me the hoops my wife is periodically required to jump through in Italy to avoid being wheeled out of the country!
Som Nam Nah!
One of the finest examples of smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist around...
Pagliaccio.
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Where I am not running the risk to be wheeled out of the country when I can't jump through the hoops anymore.
IS IT ITALY OR THAILAND, meemiathai?!?
Thailand! BAF!
In Thailand I am required to show annually a certifiable combined monthly income of more than 5 (FIVE) TIMES the Thai average, now show me the hoops my wife is periodically required to jump through in Italy to avoid being wheeled out of the country!
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3. what they meant by "locals" (local residents or Italians
What difference does that make?
The difference between having permanent double prices for Italians and foreigners and a promotional campaign aimed at the local customer base of whichever nationality...
Don't try too hard, you won't get it.
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Yes but this thread is about the present and the foreseeable future. I'm not that much bothered, at the moment, to think about Thailand's immigration laws affecting my great-grandchildren's offspring...
What exactly then you are trying to achieve?
Make you smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologists wake up and smell the somtam...
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Good for all wise, who don't have thai spouses. And my deepest condolances to all who have . Wish none of you would be wheeled out of the country by your dear thai family members, when you can't jump the hoops !!
Yes, the only other way is to get the hel_l out of Thailand and move to a civilized country.
Until LOS changes its ways, Thailand is bound to remain a great (dangerous) PLAYGROUND. Nothing else and nothing serious.
Where? Italy?
Where both I and my wife are not running the risk to be wheeled out of the country when we can't jump through the hoops anymore.
IS IT ITALY OR THAILAND, meemiathai?!?
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I said you were superficial coz are you 100% sure if the immigration rules were a bit more welcoming, it is surely going to be a good thing for everyone?
As I have tried to show, our immigration laws are NOT "a good thing for everyone" in the sense you are talking about here!
We have them for the reasons which I have said. Now, they are either a good and right thing and Thailand should adopt them too or they are a wrong, bad and stupid thing to do and we should change them to match Thailand's.
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It was in the ski resort in turin(as I said) and I of course do not remember the name. And sorry I did not ask the big guy at the entrance "what do you mean by locals?". I just saw him holding them and giving them to people who went in and when we asked what that was he said free drinks, and when we asked for them he said it is for locals. And god knows what locals mean.
So you don't know:
1. if they were they a regular thing or a one off
2. if they were they some kind of promotion/advertisement
3. what they meant by "locals" (local residents or Italians)
4. what kind of "proof" were they asking to hand those vouchers (IDs, passports ...)
<deleted> are we wasting time about then?
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Well BAF guess we got all the answers we could from this thread . Nobody including your 'future children' gives rats arse about mixed family predicaments in this country !
Q.E.D.
Good for all wise, who don't have thai spouses. And my deepest condolances to all who have . Wish none of you would be wheeled out of the country by your dear thai family members, when you can't jump the hoops !!Yes, the only other way is to get the hel_l out of Thailand and move to a civilized country.
Until LOS changes its ways, Thailand is bound to remain a great (dangerous) PLAYGROUND. Nothing else and nothing serious.
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So it is the same in thailand!
It's slow and painful but that's the future.
Yes but this thread is about the present and the foreseeable future. I'm not that much bothered, at the moment, to think about Thailand's immigration laws affecting my great-grandchildren's offspring...
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The truth is that if life gets any easier for farangs to live here and gobs more farang wash up on the shore, many of the farang that live here will wish to move on to greener (farang-free) pastures. The Thais don't have nearly the aversion to farang as us farang do.
Between a fairy dream and another, have you ever asked yourself why Thailand gets the kind of "farangs" it does? Ever asked yourself if the fact that it is a corrupt, xenophobic, racist, discriminatory, classist, dangerous, dirty, noisy, polluted developing country with motocys racing on the potholed sidewalks and unsecured high voltage wires hanging a few feet over your head might have something to do with it?
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As for what motivates descrimination or any kind of preferences, it can be any number of things.
So, you don't know. It's just that you are somehow sure it isn't xenophobia... It can't be. You and your crystal ball just know it.
But in the end, it's likely not enough people care even to 'ask why.' Why don't certain airlines ever change their paint schemes?Thailand's reasons for its immigration laws and an airline's ("Thai"?) reasons to change its paint schemes... perfect similitude.
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Why don't you answer me BAF, why should anyone in this world need a passport if everyone should be treated the same?
Why not let you and I regardless of nationality choose to live anywhere we like? No more country boundaries?
It's exactly what's happening, look at the trend: the European Union, NAFTA, ASEAN etc etc etc
It's slow and painful but that's the future.
How do you make things completely fair? When even fingers have different length!When all the fingers are on the same hand!
(i.e. no more different sovereign countries: one world one administration)
Suvarnabhumi Not Among The World’s Best
in Suvarnabhumi Airport Forum
Posted
Sorry to disappoint you but it's the Taj Mahal which is attracting those high (and low!) quality tourists, not the Delhi airport...
And India, contrary to Thailand, seems happy about the mix they get.
What are Thailand's Taj Mahals?