16 Thai airlines suspend their operations after failing safety assessments

[Othello]

Off topic trolling/bickering posts and replies have been removed. 

Close topic time I reckon!


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[JimGant]

Quote

I have not used a Thai airline for over 5 years and that will continue to be the case. Thats my choice. [Fine, take the bus -- your chance of a safe arrival is about 10 times less, plus I won't have to sit next to a knuckle  wringer.]

Quote

this means nearly two thirds have been flying on a wing and a prayer. [Not statistically, anyway.]

Actually, today's turbojets and turboprop airplanes couldn't be any safer. The engines themselves, compared to piston engines, are a magnitude above in safety. Lose an engine (rare with a jet)? Design has it flying on the remaining engine(s) just fine. Automated preflight/walkaround in today's planes can (and do) show up maintenance imperfections -- in a substandard ICAO operation. Need to land in bad weather? Most [large] airports now support CAT III ILS landings.

 

No, the real problem is not with aircraft maintenance (although, yes, 'cooking the books' can be a problem, but probably more so in the lavatory not flushing, not with engine operation)

 

The problem is with pilot training and experience. And here is where there are shortfalls. Experience can never be shorted -- but training, especially with better simulators and hours required -- can be improved.

 

And too much training on automated systems, vice having to take over manually, has recently come to the fore. Think Asiana in San Francisco, where the automated ILS landing sytem was down -- and the pilots (still with a large dose of automation, like auto throttle) blew it. No, you need some old 'stick and rudder' knowledge up front, as too many automated landings can warp ones skills.

 

Certainly not worried about flights here in Thailand, at least on Thai Air, NOK, Bangkok Airways, or Air Asia. They have large enough fleets that they are not "shoestring" operations. Room for improvement? Sure. Chance you'll die in one of their airplanes -- nearly nonexistent.

 

Quote

 In real terms, it makes no difference if the chance of crashing is one in 1m or one in 9m; the likelihood is so small as to make the difference irrelevant. But there is a special place in our psyches for the fear of big, unlikely catastrophes.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2015/01/air-safety

 

 

[lvr181]

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

Actually, today's turbojets and turboprop airplanes couldn't be any safer. The engines themselves, compared to piston engines, are a magnitude above in safety. Lose an engine (rare with a jet)? Design has it flying on the remaining engine(s) just fine. Automated preflight/walkaround in today's planes can (and do) show up maintenance imperfections -- in a substandard ICAO operation. Need to land in bad weather? Most [large] airports now support CAT III ILS landings.

 

No, the real problem is not with aircraft maintenance (although, yes, 'cooking the books' can be a problem, but probably more so in the lavatory not flushing, not with engine operation)

 

The problem is with pilot training and experience. And here is where there are shortfalls. Experience can never be shorted -- but training, especially with better simulators and hours required -- can be improved.

 

And too much training on automated systems, vice having to take over manually, has recently come to the fore. Think Asiana in San Francisco, where the automated ILS landing sytem was down -- and the pilots (still with a large dose of automation, like auto throttle) blew it. No, you need some old 'stick and rudder' knowledge up front, as too many automated landings can warp ones skills.

 

Certainly not worried about flights here in Thailand, at least on Thai Air, NOK, Bangkok Airways, or Air Asia. They have large enough fleets that they are not "shoestring" operations. Room for improvement? Sure. Chance you'll die in one of their airplanes -- nearly nonexistent.

 

 

 

I think more people killed on the roads per km travelled. Just that if an aircraft crashes it can be a greater number, unfortunately.

[Arandora]

Currently Thai is showing ridiculously high prices for international flights from UK for next June, for instance. Is this connected with this "ban"? 

[CNXBKKMAN]

6 minutes ago, Arandora said:

Currently Thai is showing ridiculously high prices for international flights from UK for next June, for instance. Is this connected with this "ban"? 

No this is because the date is so far in the future no promotions or competitive fares have been released yet. Expect lower airfares to be released during the autumn/winter/spring. 

[Othello]

Umm no! Nok should be in the group but I doubt they've been included

Nok are in the flying group


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[Arandora]

11 minutes ago, CNXBKKMAN said:

No this is because the date is so far in the future no promotions or competitive fares have been released yet. Expect lower airfares to be released during the autumn/winter/spring. 

The date is not so far in advance. Return flights are issued 340 days in advance and a price of £3500 for a basic return economy flight compared with less than £500 for the same flight on same dates in previous years does not stack up especially when competitor airlines are accepting bookings at competitive low prices which will probably be lower when promotions or sales are issued.  Nor does £6000 and £8000 for Business and First Class respectively. 

[CNXBKKMAN]

7 minutes ago, Arandora said:

The date is not so far in advance. Return flights are issued 340 days in advance and a price of £3500 for a basic return economy flight compared with less than £500 for the same flight on same dates in previous years does not stack up especially when competitor airlines are accepting bookings at competitive low prices which will probably be lower when promotions or sales are issued.  Nor does £6000 and £8000 for Business and First Class respectively. 

Quoting £3500 for economy proves the point that the date is so far in advance the airfares department have not got around to releasing their competitive airfares of 499? 479? Plus £1 for a domestic add on etc .The lower airfares will come if you can wait a couple of months.

[aright]

On ‎05‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 0:26 AM, ezzra said:

So let me understand something here, all those airlines we flying

and or offering air transportation already while not

fit or fully qualified to be engaged in such services? it's with the grace of god

that no accidents happened to those operations....

I find it surprising that a pilot would agree to fly a plane which by world standards is not fit to fly. Or maybe he doesn't know. His responsibilities might only include kicking the tyres and looking in the engine.

[Arandora]

41 minutes ago, CNXBKKMAN said:

Quoting £3500 for economy proves the point that the date is so far in advance the airfares department have not got around to releasing their competitive airfares of 499? 479? Plus £1 for a domestic add on etc .The lower airfares will come if you can wait a couple of months.

You are missing the point! The normal price for Thai for exactly the same flights, both dates and actual flight numbers to fit times of departure and return, were previously at this time of year similar to those of its competitors not £3000 below! So either they are deliberately high because of this issue but knowing that no-one with any sense will book at that price or it is a change in their pricing strategy which is more likely to lose customers than gain them. If it is the latter, no wonder they are in financial difficulty! 

[BwindiBoy]

7 hours ago, Arandora said:

You are missing the point! The normal price for Thai for exactly the same flights, both dates and actual flight numbers to fit times of departure and return, were previously at this time of year similar to those of its competitors not £3000 below! So either they are deliberately high because of this issue but knowing that no-one with any sense will book at that price or it is a change in their pricing strategy which is more likely to lose customers than gain them. If it is the latter, no wonder they are in financial difficulty! 

I have no idea why (I'm sure someone will know and then enlighten us) but this sometime occurs with many airlines.  I've done searches in the past and have been presented with similar results.  I just take it as an oddity and the price always comes down eventually - who knows, maybe it's just some kind of "default" value that gets populated as flights become "live" on their internet sites, until someone goes in and puts the "proper" price in.

 

As a related aside, I'm sure I read recently that "some experts" have determined that the best time to book a flight is around 7 months beforehand - apparently this is what they've determined as the optimum time to buy, as far as cost is concerned.

 

[aright]

On ‎06‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 0:15 PM, JimGant said:

Actually, today's turbojets and turboprop airplanes couldn't be any safer. The engines themselves, compared to piston engines, are a magnitude above in safety. Lose an engine (rare with a jet)? Design has it flying on the remaining engine(s) just fine. Automated preflight/walkaround in today's planes can (and do) show up maintenance imperfections -- in a substandard ICAO operation. Need to land in bad weather? Most [large] airports now support CAT III ILS landings.

 

No, the real problem is not with aircraft maintenance (although, yes, 'cooking the books' can be a problem, but probably more so in the lavatory not flushing, not with engine operation)

 

The problem is with pilot training and experience. And here is where there are shortfalls. Experience can never be shorted -- but training, especially with better simulators and hours required -- can be improved.

 

And too much training on automated systems, vice having to take over manually, has recently come to the fore. Think Asiana in San Francisco, where the automated ILS landing sytem was down -- and the pilots (still with a large dose of automation, like auto throttle) blew it. No, you need some old 'stick and rudder' knowledge up front, as too many automated landings can warp ones skills.

 

Certainly not worried about flights here in Thailand, at least on Thai Air, NOK, Bangkok Airways, or Air Asia. They have large enough fleets that they are not "shoestring" operations. Room for improvement? Sure. Chance you'll die in one of their airplanes -- nearly nonexistent.

 

 

 

The report says "Airlines in Thailand have failed safety and regulatory assessments............in accordance with requirements of the International Civil Aviation Organisation."  You are suggesting that those requirements aren't worth a candle and it's safe to fly on those planes.  Can you tell us what the purpose of the ICAO and the CAAT is then?

[onthesoi]

I recently flew from one end of the country to another on a thai airline for 1000 baht.

 

I guess that must be a lot of money for some falang.

[rosst]

How can this happen? 

Why hasn't the authority been assisting these airlines to comply by putting in place all the necessary personnel and systems? 

This is a failure by the certifying authorities. 

[JAG]

I recently flew from one end of the country to another on a thai airline for 1000 baht.
 
I guess that must be a lot of money for some falang.

I'm really not sure what your point is, but it is a lot of money for very many (the vast majority) of Thais, and the Thais are the vast majority of travellers here.

[Ricardo]

6 hours ago, onthesoi said:

I recently flew from one end of the country to another on a thai airline for 1000 baht.

 

I guess that must be a lot of money for some falang.

 

I think the point is, you may have flown "from one end of the country to another" on a plane which didn't necessarily meet proper international-standards for safety or maintenance.

 

Do you still think it's only about the money ?

[over it]

On 9/5/2017 at 8:39 AM, DLang said:

 

Naming them would be defamation under Thai Law and carry a sentence of 1,000 years for making rich Thais look like the incompetent, useless idiots that they are. 

 

Edited by, Over it. 

[Thian]

8 hours ago, rosst said:

How can this happen? 

Why hasn't the authority been assisting these airlines to comply by putting in place all the necessary personnel and systems? 

This is a failure by the certifying authorities. 

Yup now Thailand lost it's good reputation about safety.