Can a foreigner be a Juristic Person in Thailand

[stud858]

4 hours ago, lkn said:

How much was included in that package? Did you have your own building manager to take care of issues, supervise third party contractors, etc.?

 

Because if not, then 30k/month is probably too low. You need a good building manager more or less full time and then a proper accountant, plus profit for the company for finding, training, and managing this staff. It’s doable, but with low margins that would probably make the company opt for cheaper (subpar) staff.

The stuff that happened at my old condo with the building manager and management company you could not dream up in a billion years. 

One unbelievable thing happened whereby the BM wanted to hold a party to bring Co owners together and then he gives a 10000 Baht deposit to dancing girls, party of course doesn't happen. Money lost..  And because nobody cares, this stuff is allowed to happen, shrug of the shoulders,  oh well.  best and easiest grafting job in the world.  JP should listen to Co owners at annual meeting and execute a plan,  but they go silly and think they are the boss and do what only they think is right. 

I stay out the way of it nowadays. I figure if the bank balance goes to zero,  people will go nuts for a bit then everyone pays a few thousand baht to get account back up to 1 million.  Mai pen rai

[KittenKong]

16 minutes ago, stud858 said:

JP should listen to Co owners at annual meeting and execute a plan,  but they go silly and think they are the boss and do what only they think is right. 

The JPM is the boss. The co-owners (and their representatives, the committee) can give him instructions, but he can ignore them if he sees fit. Of course that may result in him being sacked if anyone on the committee, or enough co-owners, cares enough, but many dont.

[KittenKong]

5 hours ago, lkn said:

Juristic Person Manager is problematic, because this is commonly a paid position, so even if a co-owner offers to do this for free, and is not performing any actual work (as all but signing a few yearly documents can be outsourced to a building manager), the Ministry of Labour claims that you need a work permit to be JPM (though the Land Office does not care about this, which is where JPM gets registered).

 

An edge case is interim JPM, something that is required if the current JPM resigns or is terminated, and as only committee members are candidates for being elected interim JPM, I would claim that whoever takes this position does not compete with the local labour market.

This is my understanding also and matches what was said by the immigration official I mentioned.

 

He was very clear: committee member OK, JPM not OK.

[stud858]

22 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

This is my understanding also and matches what was said by the immigration official I mentioned.

 

He was very clear: committee member OK, JPM not OK.

One falang Jpm I know said by order of his majesty the king as stated in condo act he is entitled to be Jpm without work permit. 

Grey area for me,  but in the end if immigration officer wants to fine you,  bad luck. 

[Peterw42]

Why do people keep making reference to immigration ? They dont issue work permits or enforce the condominium act. Juristic person/manager and whether they need a work permit is nothing to do with immigration, they dont decide, enforce, fine or have anything to do with WPs or condo law.

Most expats know more about condos or WPs than an IO, an immigration guy told me means about as much as, a guy in a bar told me.

The ministry of labour makes WP decisions and issues them, not immigration. I can break every WP and condominium law tomorrow, immigration wont care less, its nothing to do with them.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Why do people keep making reference to immigration ? They dont issue work permits or enforce the condominium act. Juristic person/manager and whether they need a work permit is nothing to do with immigration, they dont decide, enforce, fine or have anything to do with WPs or condo law.

Most expats know more about condos or WPs than an IO, an immigration guy told me means about as much as, a guy in a bar told me.

The ministry of labour makes WP decisions and issues them, not immigration. I can break every WP and condominium law tomorrow, immigration wont care less, its nothing to do with them.

Great, you do that. But in Pattaya Immigration regularly arrest and deport farangs working without a permit. Widely reported on here.

 

And anyone on a retirement extension, which accounts for many people who own condos and live here most of the year, is specifically prohibited from doing any sort of work in Thailand. Again, it is Immigration who police this.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, stud858 said:

One falang Jpm I know said by order of his majesty the king as stated in condo act he is entitled to be Jpm without work permit. 

The only thing that the condo act has to say about JPMs is that every building has to have one and that he has to be voted in by co-owners, except in an emergency when a committee member can serve temporarily. It also gives details of what sort of person cant be JPM, and this mostly concerns their moral character and their age etc. There is certainly no blanket exemption for farangs in the condo act.

 

So the one you know is just trying it on, as do many who want to retain the position for whatever reason.

[stud858]

36 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

The only thing that the condo act has to say about JPMs is that every building has to have one and that he has to be voted in by co-owners, except in an emergency when a committee member can serve temporarily. It also gives details of what sort of person cant be JPM, and this mostly concerns their moral character and their age etc. There is certainly no blanket exemption for farangs in the condo act.

 

So the one you know is just trying it on, as do many who want to retain the position for whatever reason.

Yes,  he's lucky that there are some Thais on the committee with links to military apparantly.  An immigration officer threatened him but left him alone after committee intervened.  Power rules.  

I was wondering why he was lasting so long.  he's a good man doing a tuff and wonderful job. Thankfully some committee Thais see it that way 

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Why do people keep making reference to immigration ? They dont issue work permits or enforce the condominium act. Juristic person/manager and whether they need a work permit is nothing to do with immigration, they dont decide, enforce, fine or have anything to do with WPs or condo law.

Most expats know more about condos or WPs than an IO, an immigration guy told me means about as much as, a guy in a bar told me.

The ministry of labour makes WP decisions and issues them, not immigration. I can break every WP and condominium law tomorrow, immigration wont care less, its nothing to do with them.

Immigration enforce the Immigration Act which says that you can't work without permission, so of course they care and can prosecute under the Immigration Act!

 

Try setting up a food cart outside an immigration office and see what happens.

[DavidFarrow]

On 9/17/2017 at 4:41 AM, natway09 said:

Short answer,,, yes As a Juristic person (member of a committee ) you are protecting your investment

ie: cannot be unless you own a strata title in your name

We plan on Buying in Chiang Mai, but open a management real estate company as well. thank you

[DavidFarrow]

On 7/28/2018 at 5:26 PM, lkn said:

The thing is, management fee tends to be fairly low, so most co-owners do not care much about this. I could probably increase the next batch of water supply bills by a factor of 10, and no-one would notice.

 

But things being cheap here also means quality is low, and that is the real challenge of managing a building: Making sure that the staff perform their duties (security guard is not sleeping on the job, cleaning staff also removes spots which are not on their chore list, painters cover the area around where they are going to paint, and if they spill anything, they clean it up themselves, etc.).

 

In addition to that, there is a bit of communication with third parties, authorities, etc. which require a patient person who can follow-up on things and ensure there are no loose ends (you can’t expect third parties will follow up with you even though they should be incentivized by the potential job, and of course authorities or warranty issues, there is absolutely no incentive there for the other party to follow up).

Thank you for the insight, it is very helpful. I plan on registering and opening the management services company (legally) for rental and condominium and possibly real estate service as well. I am not out to change the laws or stop others from being corrupt, i just want to make a life for my family and provide the best service possible to my clients. I sleep very well at night doing my job hear and i make a good paycheck so i get the best service price on the market for my buildings. I checked the fee's in Chiang Mai and they are comparable to Ontario fee's, around 5,000.0 bht and i can bill within that and make a decent wage.

I have the software that is easy to follow and interacts. Our accounting software is connected to the Property Management software and the owner/resident portal making my job much easier and it takes less time to do so i can offer a lower rate than my competitors and i will continue to maintain my Association licences and certifications with the hope of building consumer confidence.

 

It is relatively the same attitude to repairs as it is hear, i just show them the price down the road and ask if they plan on moving anytime soon, most say no and i say well do you want to pay the lower price now or the higher price in five years when you may have lost your job.

 

I appreciate all the comments and i hope to help out at your buildings one day. if you have any questions that i may help with, please feel free to contact me at [email protected] i like to be helpful.

 

have a great week.

 

[lkn]

7 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

I checked the fee's in Chiang Mai and they are comparable to Ontario fee's, around 5,000.0 bht and i can bill within that and make a decent wage

Normally fees are per sq. meter and for the decent buildings that is 35-50 baht per sq. meter. Unit sizes tend to be low, 100 m² rooms are rare, the average is probably closer to 40 m² making the monthly management fee for such unit 2,000 baht or less.

 

But you need to look at the entire building’s budget to assess whether or not they can afford to pay you for your services. What may surprise you is just how much staff some buildings employ, multiple full time cleaners, security guards 24/7, front desk staff, technician, juristic person manager, gardener, etc.

 

[meinphuket]

On September 16, 2560 BE at 11:21 AM, mahjongguy said:

The bank books are the property of the Juristic Person as represented by the Committee. If they are not produced by the Juristic Person Manager or the Business Manager immediately upon request, you should notify the police. The Committee should then proceed to dismiss the Business Manager without notice. If the JPM is at fault, then the Committee should call an emergency association meeting and vote to remove him/her from office.

 

 

Yes, but that won't get you back your bankbooks if he/she doesn't answer any of your written demands.

[DavidFarrow]

On 10/14/2018 at 9:46 PM, meinphuket said:

Yes, but that won't get you back your bankbooks if he/she doesn't answer any of your written demands.

You should Hire me to manage the building affairs, Licenced to Manage Condominiums in Ontario and Areas within the United States, (R.C.M. C.M.C.A.) member in good standing Association of Condominium Managers Ontario and Community Association Institute (world wide). We have a proprietary software that provides access to statements on demand for owners (their account only) Board members (view only), a ticket module to track repair requests, an inspection module to keep track of mechanical systems daily, a trades module where they have to pass  health and safety requirements, accounting software that does the same as acpac, and i follow the laws as i am used to https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/98c19#BK161 and the ethics i have followed for more than 10 years. http://acmo.org/ . I am married to a Thai Citizen and we are planning on operating Management Consulting in both countries. I will be in Thailand (Chai Nat mostly) for meetings the middle to the end of March through April 2019. If you would like a consultation in person, please feel to schedule a day and time, if you would like to speak sooner we can arrange a skype, line, or other video/telephone communication anytime.  Be well, Dave

[stud858]

8 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

You should Hire me to manage the building affairs, Licenced to Manage Condominiums in Ontario and Areas within the United States, (R.C.M. C.M.C.A.) member in good standing Association of Condominium Managers Ontario and Community Association Institute (world wide). We have a proprietary software that provides access to statements on demand for owners (their account only) Board members (view only), a ticket module to track repair requests, an inspection module to keep track of mechanical systems daily, a trades module where they have to pass  health and safety requirements, accounting software that does the same as acpac, and i follow the laws as i am used to https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/98c19#BK161 and the ethics i have followed for more than 10 years. http://acmo.org/ . I am married to a Thai Citizen and we are planning on operating Management Consulting in both countries. I will be in Thailand (Chai Nat mostly) for meetings the middle to the end of March through April 2019. If you would like a consultation in person, please feel to schedule a day and time, if you would like to speak sooner we can arrange a skype, line, or other video/telephone communication anytime.  Be well, Dave

I too, presented such systems to Thai management, but it conflicts with "the Thai way of doing things"

Systems that can be reconciled are not welcome in thailand. Unless there is a falang as Juristic I recommend blending in with the background. It will save your sanity

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, stud858 said:

Systems that can be reconciled are not welcome in thailand.

Spot on. The same applies to proper accounts and proper audits.

[DavidFarrow]

On 12/19/2018 at 5:05 PM, stud858 said:

I too, presented such systems to Thai management, but it conflicts with "the Thai way of doing things"

Systems that can be reconciled are not welcome in thailand. Unless there is a falang as Juristic I recommend blending in with the background. It will save your sanity

I don't blend very well, the owners choose their board, the board chooses the Juristic, I will be offering Juristic services. I still live in Canada (for now) and to effect the change, boards and owners need to think about the investment that won't be there in 20 years because of poor management. The builders will need to think who will truly purchase that high rise unit, villa, or townhouse and if they want to deflect the finger pointing of corruption or not. Sure i have a lot to learn about the environment and the way things are being done and create a amicable solution for all concerned. I don't only manage property, Have to mostly manage personalities to be successful. Check out CAI, they are international https://www.caionline.org/pages/default.aspx 

Be Well,,, 

[DavidFarrow]

1 minute ago, DavidFarrow said:

I don't blend very well, the owners choose their board, the board chooses the Juristic, I will be offering Juristic services. I still live in Canada (for now) and to effect the change, boards and owners need to think about the investment that won't be there in 20 years because of poor management. The builders will need to think who will truly purchase that high rise unit, villa, or townhouse and if they want to deflect the finger pointing of corruption or not. Sure i have a lot to learn about the environment and the way things are being done and create a amicable solution for all concerned. I don't only manage property, Have to mostly manage personalities to be successful. Check out CAI, they are international https://www.caionline.org/pages/default.aspx 

Be Well,,, 

I will be in Chai Nat March - April (proper visas) if Boards would like to discuss and receive a demonstration.

[stud858]

3 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

Have to mostly manage personalities to be successful.

Certainly true. I'm sure you'll try and do the right thing.  Once you upset a local though it's easy for them to crush you. And that's why it's so hard. Even though you will be voted as JP,  the real power is held elsewhere by the trouble makers.

If you can get everyone on your side and out of the lazy complacency bubble you may just have a slight chance if you are a prince charming.

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

I don't blend very well, the owners choose their board, the board chooses the Juristic, I will be offering Juristic services.

I think you need to learn a lot more about how condos work here before offering anything at all.

 

The board does not choose the "Juristic", whatever that is. Co-owners choose the Juristic Person Manager (do you even know what that is?) by vote at an AGM, according to the law. The committee (aka the board) can choose the management company (if any) or it can be chosen by co-owner vote at an AGM. Many smaller buildings dont employ a management company at all: they just employ their own staff and a building manager (which is not the same thing as a JPM).

[stud858]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

I think you need to learn a lot more about how condos work here before offering anything at all.

 

The board does not choose the "Juristic", whatever that is. Co-owners choose the Juristic Person Manager (do you even know what that is?) by vote at an AGM, according to the law. The committee (aka the board) can choose the management company (if any) or it can be chosen by co-owner vote at an AGM. Many smaller buildings dont employ a management company at all: they just employ their own staff and a building manager (which is not the same thing as a JPM).

Maybe the law, but my condos gang lords have a vote for committee only then they install their own JP.

I'm amazed it all is accepted by land office. IMHO the land office needs to pull up some socks. 

Otherwise people doing what humanity does. Cheat.

[KittenKong]

20 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Maybe the law, but my condos gang lords have a vote for committee only then they install their own JP.

In your building they could be doing this because you dont have 25% of the total co-ownership voting at the GM. For a JPM to be elected he must receive 25% of the total vote, and otherwise the committee has to appoint one of their own. If not then it would be illegal. Up to you and other co-owners to get legal assistance and to fight it. I dont envy you the task.

 

20 minutes ago, stud858 said:

I'm amazed it all is accepted by land office. IMHO the land office needs to pull up some socks. 

Unfortunately the Land Office doesnt police anything at all. They just receive the reports of votes at GMs and file them away. If these reports are received late the Land Office can fine the JPM, but that's all. Anything else is the domain of courts and lawyers, or possibly the police if there is some major theft going on.

[stud858]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

If these reports are received late the Land Office 

Or not submitted at all.

Police don't care either. 

If you want to be a head honcho, Thailand is the place to be. Maybe there is a provincial honcho registration centre. Wouldn't surprise. 

[DavidFarrow]

15 hours ago, stud858 said:

Certainly true. I'm sure you'll try and do the right thing.  Once you upset a local though it's easy for them to crush you. And that's why it's so hard. Even though you will be voted as JP,  the real power is held elsewhere by the trouble makers.

If you can get everyone on your side and out of the lazy complacency bubble you may just have a slight chance if you are a prince charming.

Thank you, that is not so dissimilar to the way it works here. Owners are lazy and complacent,  Boards are manipulated by the builder or large scale management company, and the ones who care are considered anti-establishment. I think it would be an eye opening experience for the owners.   What i have found is that every condominium community has or is going through the same issues as has been described within these communications and in all the has happened communities improved and adopted new laws to protect the owners. Time, it only takes time and a good example of how fair it should be. 

[DavidFarrow]

12 hours ago, KittenKong said:

I think you need to learn a lot more about how condos work here before offering anything at all.

 

The board does not choose the "Juristic", whatever that is. Co-owners choose the Juristic Person Manager (do you even know what that is?) by vote at an AGM, according to the law. The committee (aka the board) can choose the management company (if any) or it can be chosen by co-owner vote at an AGM. Many smaller buildings dont employ a management company at all: they just employ their own staff and a building manager (which is not the same thing as a JPM).

I did mention that i needed to learn more in one of my previous posts. I do believe you know what i was referring to when i used Juristic since you used it in your July 28 posting. As stated you are not experiencing an exclusive situation. Living and working in toronto you have many cultures and gangs to deal with, i have worked the areas where managers have had guns pulled on them and i have found them in hidden areas in my buildings... Experience shows that education is a powerful tool, even the professional negative owner will turn around and be satisfied. I guess if you have never done the thankless job of a Condominium Property Manager, you wouldn't be able to comprehend how we can do the job daily without losing our mind.  The offer remains,  any community wishing to have a discussion and learn how it could be are more than welcome to contact me. 

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

I did mention that i needed to learn more in one of my previous posts. I do believe you know what i was referring to when i used Juristic since you used it in your July 28 posting. As stated you are not experiencing an exclusive situation. Living and working in toronto you have many cultures and gangs to deal with, i have worked the areas where managers have had guns pulled on them and i have found them in hidden areas in my buildings... Experience shows that education is a powerful tool, even the professional negative owner will turn around and be satisfied. I guess if you have never done the thankless job of a Condominium Property Manager, you wouldn't be able to comprehend how we can do the job daily without losing our mind. 

Well, good luck with all that. Either way, I think that before offering any sort of service here you should perhaps consider buying a Thai condo and perhaps being on the committee and dealing with Thai staff, management companies, contractors, lawyers and the Land Office, not to mention awkward co-owners and tenants. I have done that particular thankless job here and I learnt quite a lot in the process.

 

As for your comment about me using the term "Juristic" on its own on July 28, I fail to see where. When I use the word I would normally either say "Juristic Person" or "Juristic Person Manager" which are two different things and which have specific legal meanings in Thailand.

[impulse]

7 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

Thank you, that is not so dissimilar to the way it works here. Owners are lazy and complacent,  Boards are manipulated by the builder or large scale management company, and the ones who care are considered anti-establishment. I think it would be an eye opening experience for the owners.   What i have found is that every condominium community has or is going through the same issues as has been described within these communications and in all the has happened communities improved and adopted new laws to protect the owners. Time, it only takes time and a good example of how fair it should be. 

 

But you can't have someone killed for 500 baht where you live.

 

[DavidFarrow]

22 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Well, good luck with all that. Either way, I think that before offering any sort of service here you should perhaps consider buying a Thai condo and perhaps being on the committee and dealing with Thai staff, management companies, contractors, lawyers and the Land Office, not to mention awkward co-owners and tenants. I have done that particular thankless job here and I learnt quite a lot in the process.

 

As for your comment about me using the term "Juristic" on its own on July 28, I fail to see where. When I use the word I would normally either say "Juristic Person" or "Juristic Person Manager" which are two different things and which have specific legal meanings in Thailand.

Thank you for your valuable advice, i will utilize the information especially when i meet the consumer protection committee. All that you have described other than the technical meanings and positions i have experienced. I have been in Condos for over 10 years, awkward owners are common in every condo community. I have had communities where the committee (Board) Presidents townhouse fire bombed, gun pulled by owner, knives, and Police at the annual meeting. I have managed in most of the gang areas in Toronto and the Greater area... for the other side my wife can help me with the translations since she is the 51% of our company... Still, I will be around March to April for the new year celebration, traveling into BKK for meetings on other business (i also do consulting for profit corporations). be blessed, thanks again.

 

[DavidFarrow]

18 hours ago, impulse said:

 

But you can't have someone killed for 500 baht where you live.

 

No but i am familiar with the price and people.

 

[stud858]

Price I don't think it's important.  People, yes. You need to find the right type of whacko.  Once the right wacko is found it will be free most likely.