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MrPatrickThai

Too Many Non-Alcoholics in AA

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4 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Oh but according to this thread there is, they are not wanted, and are possibly refused support at AA once they are recategorised as a 'heavy drinker'

 

"Too Many Non-Alcoholics in AA"

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Just now, 473geo said:

Oh but according to this thread there is, they are not wanted, and are possibly refused support at AA once they are recategorised as a 'heavy drinker'

 

"Too Many Non-Alcoholics in AA"

They are doing harm to alcoholics, so yes, not wanted but are welcomed. I certainly wouldn't say they are downgraded. Good for them, they can stop on willpower, just like I quit cigs on will power. Heavy drinkers don't need a spiritual solution to quit drinking. They could/do kill an alcoholic by saying things like just put the plug in the jug, just go to meetings and don't drink, no hurry to do the steps etc. They don't talk about how they recovered by working the steps, as they don't need to and have no experience of it. 

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Lets see, The last five years I drank I blacked out two or three times a week. I woke  up with a tattoo I had no recollection of, was arrested for drunk driving. Wrecked two cars,got arrested again lost my driving privilege, spent time in jail. Lost friends and alienated family. The last year I drank I needed a 50/50 mix of coffee and whiskey to stop shaking  many mornings.It goes on and on. My question is, was I a heavy drinker or a problem drinker?Or something else?  BTW my last drink of alcohol was December 31, 1985. I was 33 years old.

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11 minutes ago, rucus7 said:

Lets see, The last five years I drank I blacked out two or three times a week. I woke  up with a tattoo I had no recollection of, was arrested for drunk driving. Wrecked two cars,got arrested again lost my driving privilege, spent time in jail. Lost friends and alienated family. The last year I drank I needed a 50/50 mix of coffee and whiskey to stop shaking in the many mornings.It goes on and on. My question is, was I a heavy drinker or a problem drinker?Or something else?  BTW my last drink of alcohol was December 31, 1985. I was 33 years old.

Did you lose the power of choice in whether you drank or not? Did you suffer DT's? Sound like an alcoholic to me.  There is a simple test. Take one drink and then stop, if you can do this then you are not alkie but a problem drinker, alcohol abuser or whatever they call it.

Alcoholism or alcohol dependence is a diagnosable disease characterized by several factors including a strong craving for alcohol, continued use despite harm or personal injury, the inability to limit drinking, physical illness when drinking stops, and the need to increase the amount drunk in order to feel the effects .

Alcohol abuse is a pattern of drinking that results in harm to one’s health, interpersonal relationships or ability to work. Certain manifestations of alcohol abuse include failure to fulfill responsibilities at work, school or home; drinking in dangerous situations such as while driving; legal problems associated with alcohol use and continued drinking despite problems that are caused or worsened by drinking. Alcohol abuse can lead to alcohol dependence

 

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How often do you take that test? That test sounds foolish to me.

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7 minutes ago, rucus7 said:

How often do you take that test? That test sounds foolish to me.

Not foolish to decide if you have a disease or not. Then you know how to treat it.

 

I haven't taken it this century but used to try it many times.   

 

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I am certain I am happy not drinking. However you define a disease holds little relevance in the context of alcohol. Choice is a matter for conceptual semantics. I take responsibility for my antics whilst drunk. Conversely I take credit for my accomplishments during the last 31 years of not drinking. 

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Why all the posturing? If AA works for you, great. If some AA groups want to determine who may join their fellowship, fine, too. Though they don't appear to be very into the spirit of fellowship. Besides, just go somewhere else. There's SMART Recovery. Many just find their drinking becoming too troublesome so they quit on their own, so they are not 'real' alcoholics. Does it matter. They quit.

 

There are AA goups which do suck and they should just not advertise themselves as open. They become their own-ism. The other downside of AA is they are not a clinically certified organization. I went for years, quit drinking, learned about others and myself. Then much later I was diagnosed on the spectrum of autism. That was one trigger to my drinking. You may might have a medical or mental health issue. 

 

And, there will still be asses in AA with decades of sobriety.

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7 hours ago, rucus7 said:

I am certain I am happy not drinking. However you define a disease holds little relevance in the context of alcohol. Choice is a matter for conceptual semantics. I take responsibility for my antics whilst drunk. Conversely I take credit for my accomplishments during the last 31 years of not drinking. 

Well done, how did you do it?

Will power?

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Whenever I see a post that starts off with criticism and then followed up with quotes from the book to back their point I wonder about all the other quotes from the book like “ like we only know a little” “ Our book is meant to be suggestive only’ “ We never criticize” I can go on and on.

 

Or how about the part in tradition 3 “Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?”

 

How about start off with the 11 step prayer and then decide whether criticizing AA in an public forum is the best way to carry a message.    

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14 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

Whenever I see a post that starts off with criticism and then followed up with quotes from the book to back their point I wonder about all the other quotes from the book like “ like we only know a little” “ Our book is meant to be suggestive only’ “ We never criticize” I can go on and on.

 

Or how about the part in tradition 3 “Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?”

 

How about start off with the 11 step prayer and then decide whether criticizing AA in an public forum is the best way to carry a message.    

Good points Wilson, thanks for sharing.

 

The message I'm trying to get across is not the message you think it is.I am not criticizing AA, as an entity but giving the reasons why it has a terrible 'success' rate these days and IMHO, we have to save it. 

We HAVE to tell the "my weedwhacker broke today" guys to shut up and talk about recovery.

AA has changed so much since those words were written. 80% or so success rate then compared to 5 % these days. 

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25 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Good points Wilson, thanks for sharing.

 

The message I'm trying to get across is not the message you think it is.I am not criticizing AA, as an entity but giving the reasons why it has a terrible 'success' rate these days and IMHO, we have to save it. 

We HAVE to tell the "my weedwhacker broke today" guys to shut up and talk about recovery.

AA has changed so much since those words were written. 80% or so success rate then compared to 5 % these days. 

Talking stats is a slippery slope. 80% this and 5% that.

 

I will try to point out a few factors.

 

I will assume you mean the 80% is from the early early days. Perhaps from Doctor Bob and the Old Timers. You actually had to be invited to the meeting and basically do the first 3 steps and agree to the rest of them before going to a meeting so of course the people who did that had a higher chance of success. What about the 70 people who failed to stay sober before Bill met Bob. Yes today anyone can just walk in “check it out” or get funneled through to a meeting from a court, a rehab, a doctor, or anywhere really. Many of this people why not even want to be there, many people go there to prove to whoever sent them there that AA doesn’t work and they prove that to themselves to show how it doesn’t work.

 

There are other stats such as, people who go to 100 meetings a year, 200 meeting a year and it is amazing how the success rate shoots up!

 

 

I believe my main point is, what is the point of talking about stats? The question is, is it working for you? There millions of people in AA staying sober. If you want to stick with the big book “Rarely have we been a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path… “  It turns out AA works if you want it too and if you don’t want it to work it won’t.

 

Back to the point with throwing out dismal stats (which are not proven), how is that helping a new person reading this forum.

 

Back to the literature, the daily reflections from just a few days ago, October 7.

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3 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

Back to the point with throwing out dismal stats (which are not proven), how is that helping a new person reading this forum.

This thread is not for the new person. 

 

Yeah the 80% is from around 1940. 

 

Before Bob met Bill, there was no AA. Even after they met there was no AA but they went to Oxford groups. The first AA meeting was started in Cleveland by a guy named Clarence. 

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2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Well done, how did you do it?

Will power?

I made the self commitment of one year without alcohol. After that one year I realized I feel good not drinking. However I did replace one addiction with another. I became an exercise fanatic and middle distance runner. Some use AA and the support it gives them. I found another path.

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4 minutes ago, rucus7 said:

I made the self commitment of one year without alcohol. After that one year I realized I feel good not drinking. However I did replace one addiction with another. I became an exercise fanatic and middle distance runner. Some use AA and the support it gives them. I found another path.

and our hats are off to you. AA is not the only way to stay sober, it is one way.

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