'Ball in your court' - Britain, EU clash over next Brexit move

[smedly]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

The UK will survive after Brexit.  It will go through a pretty rough time and it will have a high cost but it will survive.  If May is actually stupid enough to walk away without a deal and we go over the cliff edge then the short term will be very tough indeed.

 

If you go back and look at the Brexiteers (Johnson, Gove and Farage) rhetoric when they were canvassing for votes then you will see that none of what they said has turned out to be true.  If I were a Brexit voter I would be mightily angry at how I was conned by these lying toe rags.

 

 

it hasn't happened yet 2019 I believe with a possible 2 year extension to sort stuff out

[smedly]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

So in reality the EU is strong and the UK is weak?   Better get out as soon as possible then

The UK is leaving the EU.....fact

 

How that happens is yet to be determined

 

Some things that will not happen

 

The UK will not hand over 100b or even 50b Euro, some that are claiming the talks are going nowhere might want to share what they would do at this point - just hand over the money right ?. It seems the EU is giving no alternative - it is they who are saying pay up or walk away

 

It is the EU that are blocking an open border plan with the Irish republic because it will become an EU border with a foreign country - the UK

 

The other issue about the European court having some sort of jurisdiction over UK law is also a none runner

 

All the above is being played out for one reason only - to try and derail the UK's exit from the EU and create as much political social instability and unrest in the UK as they can, right now it is looking like the UK is getting ready to walk, if they do walk and the UK doesn't implode on itself and brexit continues then the EU will have failed with their "plan A to derail brexit"  and will have to get back to the table with serious talks

 

Personally I'd have walked many weeks ago 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Yes I agree that lies are common place in politics.  Unfortunately the public has to pick their way through the lies as best as they can.

 

We have all been batting this Brexit business about for quite a while now and both sides have their reasons for taking he stance that they have.  And I am sure that both sides want the best outcome for the UK even though that may not be the same thing.  This is going to run for quite a while yet and the debates will continue.  At least people are passionate about it and that is how it should be.

 

OK back to the fray....  I understand your point about project fear against Boris's bus but don't you think that given where we are today that "project fear" is winning hands down? 

Project F was more about the direct effects of leaving and not the problems of negotiating the exit itself. It may be that some of the PF claims may come to pass once the UK leaves but I hope not. The PF claims were nearly all economic but I have to say again that I feel that most leave voters were more keen on the issues of sovereignty than anything else and that they were decided well in advance of the in/out campaigns and the associated bullcrap that came with them. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Yes, really. After Brexit still 27 countries left and they can work out how to compensate for it. The UK was never too enthusiastic about the EU anyway by not joining the Euro or Schengen. The EU itself might even get stronger because of Brexit.

It would be a different story if Germany wanted to leave but luckily that is very unlikely. They at least are smart enough to see the benefits of staying in the EU.

And how many of those 27 have been net contributors? (hint: there aren't that many net contributors)!

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

The UK is leaving the EU.....fact

 

How that happens is yet to be determined

 

Some things that will not happen

 

The UK will not hand over 100b or even 50b Euro, some that are claiming the talks are going nowhere might want to share what they would do at this point - just hand over the money right ?. It seems the EU is giving no alternative - it is they who are saying pay up or walk away

 

It is the EU that are blocking an open border plan with the Irish republic because it will become an EU border with a foreign country - the UK

 

The other issue about the European court having some sort of jurisdiction over UK law is also a none runner

 

All the above is being played out for one reason only - to try and derail the UK's exit from the EU and create as much political social instability and unrest in the UK as they can, right now it is looking like the UK is getting ready to walk, if they do walk and the UK doesn't implode on itself and brexit continues then the EU will have failed with their "plan A to derail brexit"  and will have to get back to the table with serious talks

 

Personally I'd have walked many weeks ago 

It is not the EU blocking the open border with Ireland, but the practicalties of WTO rules.

If the  EU was to allow such a position it would be in immediate dispute with over states requesting similar favourable outcomes under the MFN .

This is the reason that the EU requires that the issue of NI is dealt with in phase 1 , and not part of any trade agreement.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

Personally I'd have walked many weeks ago 

You make some valid points.  Walking away in the hope that then the EU would come back to the table is a good point but highly risky.  No matter what the EU position is they will (and have said consistently) that the UK will be punished for leaving to deter any of the other members doing the same. So even if they do come to the table they will still want to inflict as much pain as possible.  Of course they could just say "screw you" as well.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

PF claims were nearly all economic but I have to say again that I feel that most leave voters were more keen on the issues of sovereignty than anything else

Yes you are right and that is the rub.  If you can have a prosperous strong and stable economy and everything that comes with it for the sake of "Sovereignty" than I think that is a price worth paying.  If sovereignty is at the price of economic meltdown and failing services like the NHS and that is the choice of the Brexiteers, so be it.  I guess it is about priorities and we all have our own. It is true that we can't have our cake and eat it.  Let's hope we don't end up with just some crumbs.

[gamini]

13 hours ago, smedly said:

Plan "A"  The EU don't want to negotiate (that is obvious) they want to create as much turmoil as possible in the UK in the hope that brexit will never happen, not hard to see the divisive elements at work trying to de-stabalise the UK, the EU keep saying that the UK haven't done enough and yet remain silent on what actually is enough.............well we all know what is enough lol .......more than 50 billion Euro and of course it will all be documented and accounted for LMAO

 

It really is time the UK just walked away, I have heard people who voted remain getting really pissed off with the way these unelected (deleted)s are treating the UK and its people, walk away and leave the door open for when they actually have something to talk about, it really is getting to be a complete shame that the UK is going along with it and is still sitting at the table with these people, I am getting the feeling that the next meeting will be the last if the EU still refuse to move forward..............................then they will wait and see if the UK implodes or the people get behind the government..........................anyone in the UK that thinks 100b or even 50b is a reasonable demand and would just pay up is just plain stupid.....................anyone that would sit around a table when that sort of demand is being made is equally stupid, as soon as anyone from the EU mentioned that sort of figure I would have been heading for the door trying to contain myself for laughing so much........serious talks ????  lol

 

Serious talks will only happen if the UK walk away and if the UK doesn't implode..........we are being tested

 

Time to throw the ball firmly in the EU court and see if they like it or not, the EU cannot survive without the UK being involved one way or another........that is certain

 

 

A typical Brexiteer rant. I am quite sure that the EU will be much better off without the UK. It should have been painfully obvious that UK is going to be much worse without a deal otherwise why should they be desperately trying to get one.   Incidently dont call me a remainer because I am very pro European and I think the EU is going be stronger without the UK. Other EU members see the unfolding drama that the UK is facing and it will strenghten them to move forward.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Yes you are right and that is the rub.  If you can have a prosperous strong and stable economy and everything that comes with it for the sake of "Sovereignty" than I think that is a price worth paying.  If sovereignty is at the price of economic meltdown and failing services like the NHS and that is the choice of the Brexiteers, so be it.  I guess it is about priorities and we all have our own. It is true that we can't have our cake and eat it.  Let's hope we don't end up with just some crumbs.

Pure sovereignty includes owning your own currency, without it you lose everything. So as far as I see it, keeping the pound is vital. I try to take the long view - and the Euro will fail - the UK has huge debt but the PIGS and even France own a lot more debt. Eventually the EU will force the Euro on all of their members and that's a major reason to keep a distance. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

A typical Brexiteer rant. I am quite sure that the EU will be much better off without the UK. It should have been painfully obvious that UK is going to be much worse without a deal otherwise why should they be desperately trying to get one.   Incidently dont call me a remainer because I am very pro European and I think the EU is going be stronger without the UK. Other EU members see the unfolding drama that the UK is facing and it will strenghten them to move forward.

Well the best of British with that, Old Chap!

[boomerangutang]

UK used to have a lot of territory.  It lost nearly all of it.

UK used to have powerful banks and financing.  It's losing much of that also.

 

The EU is in a more powerful position at the negotiating table, than Britain.

 

UK is like a mini-USA, with ever-increasing debts, lots of immigrants, and pining for the olde days when it was a world power.

 

Well, it's still got Bovril.

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

UK used to have a lot of territory.  It lost nearly all of it.

UK used to have powerful banks and financing.  It's losing much of that also.

 

The EU is in a more powerful position at the negotiating table, than Britain.

 

UK is like a mini-USA, with ever-increasing debts, lots of immigrants, and pining for the olde days when it was a world power.

 

Well, it's still got Bovril.

And that's the  bottom line!

[citybiker]

A typical Brexiteer rant. I am quite sure that the EU will be much better off without the UK. It should have been painfully obvious that UK is going to be much worse without a deal otherwise why should they be desperately trying to get one.   Incidently dont call me a remainer because I am very pro European and I think the EU is going be stronger without the UK. Other EU members see the unfolding drama that the UK is facing and it will strenghten them to move forward.

I think the V4, Visegrád Group might disagree with you.

Can you tell me how many of the remaining MS27 will contribute towards the fiscal black hole left by the 2nd highest net contributor?

Until there’s evidence then I don’t see trading beyond the EU (it won’t stop overnight due to clauses) can damage rather prosper the U.K. and if you think the EU will be stronger without the U.K. without reading or researching the vital elements & small detail (clue was in A50 narrative) you maybe disappointed.

I like Europe but relieved the UK has been given the opportunity to cut political ties with Brussels, long overdue.


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[Retiredandhappyhere]

On 10/10/2017 at 4:09 PM, whatsupdoc said:

Yes, really. After Brexit still 27 countries left and they can work out how to compensate for it. The UK was never too enthusiastic about the EU anyway by not joining the Euro or Schengen. The EU itself might even get stronger because of Brexit.

It would be a different story if Germany wanted to leave but luckily that is very unlikely. They at least are smart enough to see the benefits of staying in the EU.

That is because Germany is the country which has benefited most from membership of the EU.

[ilostmypassword]

On 10/11/2017 at 5:58 AM, citybiker said:

I think the V4, Visegrád Group might disagree with you.

Can you tell me how many of the remaining MS27 will contribute towards the fiscal black hole left by the 2nd highest net contributor?

Until there’s evidence then I don’t see trading beyond the EU (it won’t stop overnight due to clauses) can damage rather prosper the U.K. and if you think the EU will be stronger without the U.K. without reading or researching the vital elements & small detail (clue was in A50 narrative) you maybe disappointed.

I like Europe but relieved the UK has been given the opportunity to cut political ties with Brussels, long overdue.


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Tell me, did you know that this "black hole" is actually substantially smaller than the Germany's current budget surplus. In the scheme of things, and compared to the size of the EU's GDP it's not a lot of money.

[whatsupdoc]

29 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

That is because Germany is the country which has benefited most from membership of the EU.

And, if I am not mistaken, they also contributed the most. Apparently it pays to be member of the EU (for most, if not all, since even Greece doesn't want to leave). 

[citybiker]

Tell me, did you know that this "black hole" is actually substantially smaller than the Germany's current budget surplus. In the scheme of things, and compared to the size of the EU's GDP it's not a lot of money.

It’s still a black hole & using Germany’s sole GDP surplus doesn’t give the bigger picture.

Other MS will be contributing more, the EU know reform will be controversial as it will affect current & strategically proposed projects.


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[nauseus]

55 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

And, if I am not mistaken, they also contributed the most. Apparently it pays to be member of the EU (for most, if not all, since even Greece doesn't want to leave). 

Germany has contributed the most but benefited far more, especially after the Euro was introduced.

[citybiker]

Germany has contributed the most but benefited far more, especially after the Euro was introduced.

Which has been a irritating thorn for France yet Macron is attempting to be a political heavyweight, hypocrite comes to mind.

Other countries are also unhappy at certain MS’s benefiting more.


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[partington]

Clearly one country depriving 27 other countries of some cash/opportunities  means each of those 27 countries bears only a small burden, as the disadvantages are distributed 27 ways.

 

On the other hand, 27 countries each depriving a single country of some cash/opportunities, of necessity focuses all the disadvantages on a single recipient.

 

For that common sense reason alone the UK is in the weaker position in any negotiation...

[smedly]

3 hours ago, partington said:

Clearly one country depriving 27 other countries of some cash/opportunities  means each of those 27 countries bears only a small burden, as the disadvantages are distributed 27 ways.

 

On the other hand, 27 countries each depriving a single country of some cash/opportunities, of necessity focuses all the disadvantages on a single recipient.

 

For that common sense reason alone the UK is in the weaker position in any negotiation...

I think you underestimate the value the UK brings to the EU, you say 27 to 1 very simplistic and incorrect, if you want to look at what the UK brings to the EU table "excluding" financial contributions then look at comparing  population and trading strength, that paints an entirely different picture.

 

Your above post is complete and utter nonsense  in real properly measured terms, the UK is not 1 of 27, it is the 5th/6th strongest economy in the world

[taipeir]

Pure sovereignty includes owning your own currency, without it you lose everything. So as far as I see it, keeping the pound is vital. I try to take the long view - and the Euro will fail - the UK has huge debt but the PIGS and even France own a lot more debt. Eventually the EU will force the Euro on all of their members and that's a major reason to keep a distance. 

No it can't because each country had a veto on that.

Its only NEW members who are requested to use the euro.


Get your facts right.

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[nauseus]

10 hours ago, taipeir said:

No it can't because each country had a veto on that.

Its only NEW members who are requested to use the euro.


Get your facts right.

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By recognizing the words "eventually" and "will", an intelligent mind would grasp that I'm talking about the future.

[smedly]

the more and more I think about this demanded divorce bill (primary reason why talks have stalled) although I don't rule it out entirely - there are there are things to consider

 

Junker has already stated recently that it is in the interests of all EU tax payers (which I agree) so lets consider how many tax payers there are in the EU (from a population of almost 600 million I believe), then every one of those current and future has an "equal duty" to the pension bill going forward not just those countries that actually make a contribution to the EU purse, so that means that if they work out a figure for said bill over the next say 20 years it should reflect a contribution from every single EU tax payer over that period, each individual UK tax payer has no more responsibility for said bill than any other individual tax payer across the entire EU, then factor in extra contributions towards expenses and infrastructure made by the UK past present and future  - once you work all that out then the UK tax payer might actually be owed money.

 

I gota laugh at Corbin being constantly critical of the brexit negotiations - I wish someone would ask him how he would address the exit bill issue (which is the primary reason for the current deadlock) - would he just touch his toes and pay...........................why is nobody asking him, why is the media not pressing him on what he would do differently, it's all well and good and easy to be on the outside looking in and being critical of the government but he has offered absolutely nothing of his own, would he just get the UK tax payers cheque book out and right them a cheque for 50 billion Euro ?????   

[taipeir]

By recognizing the words "eventually" and "will", an intelligent mind would grasp that I'm talking about the future.

So you are just emitting random thoughts with no evidence.

Congratulations.

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[taipeir]

UK used to have a lot of territory.  It lost nearly all of it.

UK used to have powerful banks and financing.  It's losing much of that also.

 

The EU is in a more powerful position at the negotiating table, than Britain.

 

UK is like a mini-USA, with ever-increasing debts, lots of immigrants, and pining for the olde days when it was a world power.

 

Well, it's still got Bovril.

Does it?

 

I noticed the British have sold off many of their companies including famous food manufacturers to foreigners.

 

Weetabix was sold to Chinese who have sold it on again.

 

Tetley tea to the Indians (a certain irony in that ).

 

Many of the chocolate manufacturers ditto.

 

Seems Bovril is still made In the UK by Unilveer which is still mostly HQ in UK although it is a true multinational.

 

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[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, taipeir said:

So you are just emitting random thoughts with no evidence.

Congratulations.

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Nope. There are several stories about to make it more than just rumour.

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/leaked-document-sweden-and-denmark-to-be-forced-into-the-euro-by-2025-2017-5/

[taipeir]

Nope. There are several stories about to make it more than just rumour.

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/leaked-document-sweden-and-denmark-to-be-forced-into-the-euro-by-2025-2017-5/

The story just restates the fact that the EU treaty means that member states have a veto on the Euro and there is no timelines on introduction of the Euro.

 

So just scaremongering.

 

'Under the current EU treaty, Denmark would have the right to opt out if a "forced" decision were to be taken'

 

And EU treaties need all members to agree to change.

 

 

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[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, taipeir said:

The story just restates the fact that the EU treaty means that member states have a veto on the Euro and there is no timelines on introduction of the Euro.

 

So just scaremongering.

 

'Under the current EU treaty, Denmark would have the right to opt out if a "forced" decision were to be taken'

 

And EU treaties need all members to agree to change.

 

 

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Not including future EU treaties, naturally.

[taipeir]

Meanwhile this is the reality.

https://infacts.org/uk-has-not-lost-euro-veto/

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