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Immigration asking impossible! UK Embassy won't certify birth cert


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9 minutes ago, boughtoncestrian said:

I  had this problem, contacted Milton Keys. The fee for the affidavit is ten GBP  they would only accept cash or british postal order I had neither and finished up having to go to UK to get it done.

Since you went to UK I am interested to know what you may have learnt about getting things done and time necessary.

I go to the UK once a year and go to see friends in London as part of the trip.

Obviously I will need to check with the places concerned but any tips may help, thanks.

 

If you go to  Milton Keynes can you get the certification done on a quick basis and collect. (same day/ following day)

Same at Thai Embassy London. ie same day, or submit and collect next day or how many days?

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11 hours ago, blackcab said:

Try and find another solution to avoid the international paper chase.

@blackcab, I hear you.  As it happens, we have plans not to be in Thailand for much of the forthcoming year so have decided to let child's non-O visa lapse (since they apologetically refused to accept the birth cert after my second reasoned request today).  We plan to re-enter on 30-days visa free for child and avail ourselves of the "privilege/loophole" of a child being "unfinable" for overstays if it came to that.  (If anyone has any tips and experience to share on this, please do). I will get this legalisation thing done at some point but am not going to get stressed out about it now.

 

Here's the infographic of the paperflow that explains the legalisation process:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461072/legalisation_infographic.pdf

 

I'm lost as to what happens after the document has been dealt with by the Thai Embassy UK.  I assume they will send it back to me in Thailand.  Currently, I can't even access the Thai Embassy UK website here: http://thaiembassyuk.org.uk/en/home. 

 

Not to mention that this form you are supposed to fill in for the Thai Embassy is utterly confusing: http://supibee.thaiembassyuk.org.uk/forms/legalisation.pdf

 

I have no confidence that I will actually get my paperwork done in good time.  I won't be able to pay them by postal order or GBP cash either if that is the requirement.  So this part of the process is the big stumbling block.

 

I'm also wondering if it's possible to bypass the Thai Embassy in the UK altogether (since we won't be in Thailand for a bit).  I would get the birth cert legalised by Milton Keynes sent back to me - it is still legalized even without the further endorsement by the Thai Embassy, right? Apostilled is apostilled.  And then get the MFA to stamp it before the next use in Thailand.  I know the prudent ones would advise against that.  Having personally visited the MFA twice in the last couple of days, I have a good feeling that they will recognize the legalisation endorsement from Milton Keynes and do the right thing.

 

 

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@blackcab, I hear you.  As it happens, we have plans not to be in Thailand for much of the forthcoming year so have decided to let child's non-O visa lapse (since they apologetically refused to accept the birth cert after my second reasoned request today).  We plan to re-enter on 30-days visa free for child and avail ourselves of the "privilege/loophole" of a child being "unfinable" for overstays if it came to that.  (If anyone has any tips and experience to share on this, please do). I will get this legalisation thing done at some point but am not going to get stressed out about it now.
 
Here's the infographic of the paperflow that explains the legalisation process:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/461072/legalisation_infographic.pdf
 
I'm lost as to what happens after the document has been dealt with by the Thai Embassy UK.  I assume they will send it back to me in Thailand.  Currently, I can't even access the Thai Embassy UK website here: http://thaiembassyuk.org.uk/en/home. 
 
Not to mention that this form you are supposed to fill in for the Thai Embassy is utterly confusing: http://supibee.thaiembassyuk.org.uk/forms/legalisation.pdf
 
I have no confidence that I will actually get my paperwork done in good time.  I won't be able to pay them by postal order or GBP cash either if that is the requirement.  So this part of the process is the big stumbling block.
 
I'm also wondering if it's possible to bypass the Thai Embassy in the UK altogether (since we won't be in Thailand for a bit).  I would get the birth cert legalised by Milton Keynes sent back to me - it is still legalized even without the further endorsement by the Thai Embassy, right? Apostilled is apostilled.  And then get the MFA to stamp it before the next use in Thailand.  I know the prudent ones would advise against that.  Having personally visited the MFA twice in the last couple of days, I have a good feeling that they will recognize the legalisation endorsement from Milton Keynes and do the right thing.
 
 

The Thai Embassy in London just sent the document back to my sister in the return address envelope I provided.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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20 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:


It looks like this

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Thanks very much brewsterbudgen for sharing!  The small print at the bottom makes it very clear that you don't want to skip the Thai Embassy endorsement.

 

 

Edited by kidizen
Deleted picture in quote
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14 minutes ago, kidizen said:

I'm also wondering if it's possible to bypass the Thai Embassy in the UK altogether (since we won't be in Thailand for a bit).  I would get the birth cert legalised by Milton Keynes sent back to me - it is still legalized even without the further endorsement by the Thai Embassy, right?

 

Wrong as I understand it.

If they could do that then they would also be able to certify the "original" copy of the certificate in the first place.

 

I understand that they have no remit to legalise on overseas documents except where it has been already legalised by the appropriate personnel from the country within their jurisdiction who they can verify as true.

So for UK they can legalise docs for which they can verify the representative here.

 

I have done several. If you have seen one then you will understand why, see example below.

Front of doc was stamped by the British Embassy. The Back is stamped by MFA ,

see what it says and I think you will understand.

 

As I understand it, the Thai Embassy in the UK has the authority to legalize documents certified in the UK by UK authorities in the UK and not the MFA in Bangkok.

 

FRONT Stamped and with Embassy Seal.

image.png.d0d90595d28ffcc67abc31bd61f5195f.png

BACK stamped by MFA

image.png.297c35aef76e82d0de8724245f26dca5.png

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1 minute ago, jojothai said:

Wrong as I understand it.

If they could do that then they would also be able to certify the "original" copy of the certificate in the first place.

 

I understand that they have no remit to legalise on overseas documents except where it has been already legalised by the appropriate personnel from the country within their jurisdiction who they can verify as true.

So for UK they can legalise docs for which they can verify the representative here.

 

I have done several. If you have seen one then you will understand why, see example below.

Front of doc was stamped by the British Embassy. The Back is stamped by MFA ,

see what it says and I think you will understand.

 

As I understand it, the Thai Embassy in the UK has the authority to legalize documents certified in the UK by UK authorities in the UK and not the MFA in Bangkok.

 

FRONT Stamped and with Embassy Seal.

 

BACK stamped by MFA

 

Thanks @Jojothai!  I get it.  I do. It's an audit trail of official signatories to deter forgery in spite of the inevitable disclaimers you see everywhere.

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3 minutes ago, kidizen said:

I can't help but think that this is red tape gone mad, absolute absurdity. 

Precisely what I thought just over a year ago.

Its not as if the embassy had much to do for the fees charged that were expensive anyway.

Very much unhelpful of the UK authorities to withdraw the services to us citizens that may be essential to identification overseas.

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41 minutes ago, kidizen said:

I won't be able to pay them by postal order or GBP cash either if that is the requirement. 

While the whole process seems quite insane, I am confused by your statement that you would be unable to send them GBP cash. While certainly not normally recommended, acquiring a few GBP and sending it through by post surrounded by sheets of paper would seem feasible., and the sums involved are not such that losing them would be a catastrophe

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2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

While the whole process seems quite insane, I am confused by your statement that you would be unable to send them GBP cash. While certainly not normally recommended, acquiring a few GBP and sending it through by post surrounded by sheets of paper would seem feasible., and the sums involved are not such that losing them would be a catastrophe

Good point.  I will certainly bear that in mind. 

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18 hours ago, jojothai said:

Thai Embassy should be woken up to join the 21st century and be able to use application on line with payment by card /accept UK cheques but also include DHL process cost if you want it sent to Thailand. 

Same applies to the Thai Embassy in Australia. They only accept money order not card of any type.

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On 24/11/2017 at 4:01 AM, ubonjoe said:

At one time they would allow a person to a statement that it was true and correct that immigration would accept but a few years ago they stopped doing that. 

 

That's a great pity. I was hoping the OP could type or print his own text on the document copy, something like "I, John Doe, holder of British passport No. xxx issued at xxx on xxx, hereby certify that this is a true and correct copy of the original", have his signature below this text witnessed by a consular officer, then get the consular officer's signature authenticated by the MFA, but from your above observations this would not be acceptable to immigration.

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7 hours ago, Maestro said:

That's a great pity. I was hoping the OP could type or print his own text on the document copy, something like "I, John Doe, holder of British passport No. xxx issued at xxx on xxx, hereby certify that this is a true and correct copy of the original", have his signature below this text witnessed by a consular officer, then get the consular officer's signature authenticated by the MFA, but from your above observations this would not be acceptable to immigration.

Immigration would accept it but the UK embassy would not do the witnessing of the signature. They will not allow a self certification of a document.

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1 hour ago, Monomial said:

... Embassies are not capable of legalizing documents by treaty. ..

Yet some will do some sort of verifications, by requiring some proof (for income stat-docs and freedom-to-marry docs) and others won't.  The ones that won't do this (including the USA) put an extra-special clause in their form-letter saying, basically:

"This could all be 100% Total BS and I wouldn't believe any of this if I were you, but this person said it was true, so we had to stamp this." 

Or, at least, that's how many Thai officials read that line. 

 

1 hour ago, Monomial said:

... Except for passports, which are already considered legalized by definition ...

But at some amphoes - for example, when you go to get married - they won't accept your passport as genuine without a certified copy of it stamped by your Embassy - and further stamped by the MFA - because "some Indian forger  ..." story (also used to deny other embassy-certified documents).  Then some/others won't accept your affirmation-to-marry document, because your Embassy cut the legs out from under your credibility with the, "This may all be BS ..." clause in their letter.

 

On 11/24/2017 at 7:33 PM, kidizen said:

The irony of it all is in the small print, repeatedly:

"It does not confirm the authenticity of the underlying document"

"It does not authenticate either the signature in the original document or the contents of the original document in any way"

 

So if it doesn't authenticate anything, what is the point? (Rhetorical question)

 

There isn't a point, is the point, I think.  It's just a matter of, "Well, I've covered by backside, because I have this stamp from the other guy in the chain."

Until you get to an official who isn't too keen on you getting what you are after, at which point they can slither out of the whole thing, by pointing out nothing has really been "authenticated" at all.

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On 24/11/2017 at 9:50 AM, AlQaholic said:

Becuase the Immigration specifically ask you to get a stamp from the Brittish Embassy, any other legal path is useless. You need to personally go to the Brittish Embassy and plead for them to put a stamp on the document. Just because they say something on their website does not necessarily prevent them from having a bit of humanity, understanding, and compassion.

You have not had much experience of embassy staff. Regardless of which embassy for whatever country humanity, understanding and compassion does not exist in their neo-nazi lifestyle. Power crazed dominant egotistical selfish bar stewards them all.

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8 minutes ago, MJL1962 said:

You have not had much experience of embassy staff. Regardless of which embassy for whatever country humanity, understanding and compassion does not exist in their neo-nazi lifestyle. Power crazed dominant egotistical selfish bar stewards them all.

Any lack of understanding seems to be on the part of people seeking to have docs certified and the departments insisting they do so. Embassies have far more pressing things for their workforce to be getting on with instead of counting the paper clips simply because foreign govts are unable to do it themselves. 

 

The only plus to their dilemma is that it's a nice little earner to the treasury... 

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7 hours ago, evadgib said:

Any lack of understanding seems to be on the part of people seeking to have docs certified and the departments insisting they do so. Embassies have far more pressing things for their workforce to be getting on with instead of counting the paper clips simply because foreign govts are unable to do it themselves. 

 

The only plus to their dilemma is that it's a nice little earner to the treasury... 

Not being critical but there are always two sides to opinion.

There does seem to be a lack of understanding - by the governmental people who have decided that British citizens cannot have such (expensive) assistance outside the uk. 

Far more important to get on with minimizing staff and getting rid of any responsibility.

Outsource what you can, or make them go to the UK. That's the way it works these days. No empire any more.

Good gracious, why did we ever issue passports outside the UK. 

 

The prices you have or should I say HAD to pay for the services should have more than justified the potential cash cow. Hard to figure out why they were not making it a money earner.

 

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