Pattaya booming!: European tourist arrivals "up 10%" - 'FIT' tourists up 30%

[JSixpack]

46 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's relevant when you try to claim tourism is "down"

I don't claim "tourism" is down, as it's obvious that mongers have been replaced by Russians and then Chinese and now Indians.

I do claim that monger visitors are down, as is pretty evident by any stroll through Soi 7 or 8.

 

 

"You" is a general "you."

 

Your example proves exactly nothing except you're still living in the early 1990s. Lemme repeat for maybe the 10th time: After that the beer bar scene (and go-go scene) vastly expanded from Soi 7 and 8! So take the old monger population and divide them among 5 times more beer bars and of course the total population looks thinner. To that we might add another class of monger who doesn't fit the old model. You'll note some of the bars on Sois 7 and 8 are comparatively upscale compared to those of old. I was surprised to see the number of new ones.

 

I'm not estimating or comparing the number of mongers myself; I really dunno—but you also really dunno either.

 

It'd be good if a lot of that overbuilt bar scene got finally demolished so that we could concentrate the mongers and stop trotting out and abusing the Soi 7 & 8 Indicator.

 

[bkk6060]

Just now, Banana7 said:

I just checked with my GF who works at a 4 star hotel here in Pattaya. She said hotel occupancy was 63% on Monday Dec. 11, 2017 and on Tuesday it was 62%, not very busy for high season.

 

Many more Airbnb now.

A decent condo will rent for less then a hotel.

[newnative]

51 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

I just checked with my GF who works at a 4 star hotel here in Pattaya. She said hotel occupancy was 63% on Monday Dec. 11, 2017 and on Tuesday it was 62%, not very busy for high season.

 

     If the hotel occupancy is 62%, the likely reason is all the illegal condo rentals now being done.  I know The Base, Centric Sea, Unixx, and many other condos in good locations are packed with illegal short term renters, some staying only one or two nights.   All these tourists should be in hotels, not residences.   It's a mystery to me why the managers of all these hotels losing business haven't banded together and demanded action by the city to curtail this illegal activity.  Acting in concert, they would be a powerful voice and might be able to force some change.  They could also point out all the hotel taxes being lost each time a tourist books an illegal condo vs. a hotel room.

[Peterw42]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

True.

What I fail to understand though is why anyone not interested in the bar scene that could afford to go elsewhere would choose a place that is a *hole, has a filthy beach, few tourist attractions in the immediate vicinity, and with shockingly bad traffic. It's not as though better beaches don't abound in LOS and for scenery Chiang Mai is far, far superior.

I could understand them staying along Jomptien beach as places like waterparks and the beach is better than Pattaya, but I don't get why they stay in Pattaya.

I suspect it's all a tourist industry scam, as the hotels do look pretty in the brochures.

I don't include Chinese or Indians in that as the Chinese like seafood and I assume the city is a step up on whatever *hole they come from. The Indians, IMO, like that it's cheap, has a lot of other Indians, and can get a GF on Beach Rd. They don't like having to pay for drinks in a barbeer though, for reasons I can't say on here.

I get your point, have often wondered the same. Then again if you are hunkered down in the Hilton, hotel pool , roof deck, same building as central mall, etc. Air-conn mini bus takes you out each day. They step outside the hotel a couple of times for the walk on the wild side, night market.

Indians in Pattaya are a lot like Australians in Bali, its close, its cheap etc.

I go up the the Tiger park a couple of times a week for lunch, fantastic big hotel style buffet (150 baht Thai price with a pink ID card). Watching the punters up there and its mostly Indians (the ones with money), the whole package, Tigers, photographers, T-shirt etc.

[Arth]

On 12/9/2017 at 6:23 AM, wakeupplease said:

I will believe it when those who live here say so, not the J boys or liars, the real guys who have nothing to loose by telling the truth.

 

The sad thing is its 17 days to the Christmas Holidays in Europe right now, so no one leaves early at this time of year, The Christmas rush has not started yet so the 10% up on European arrivals is a bloody lie sunshine.

So i mustnt have arrived yesterday and must still be in freezing cold Blighty with my plane full or visitors.

 

Face it in the last 2 decades building in Patts has been rife and those hotels are obviously making money hence theyre expansion.

 

I will add 2 years ago i came here and flight prices dropped significantly just before the date i flew out, this year they went up vastly in the days before flying out.

 

There must be many a westerner arriving with a few weeks supply of these for their holidays completely unaware of this.

 

[wakeupplease]

1 hour ago, Arth said:

So i mustnt have arrived yesterday and must still be in freezing cold Blighty with my plane full or visitors.

 

Face it in the last 2 decades building in Patts has been rife and those hotels are obviously making money hence theyre expansion.

 

I will add 2 years ago i came here and flight prices dropped significantly just before the date i flew out, this year they went up vastly in the days before flying out.

 

There must be many a westerner arriving with a few weeks supply of these for their holidays completely unaware of this.

 

Did your flight get delayed?

[wakeupplease]

8 hours ago, maxpower said:

The online booking facility is extremely simple easy to use and there is help if needed.

 

There are several hotels near Khao San Road starting at 350B which might suit you better. Hit me up if you need directions but I can't get you a discount on these hotels.

For one never in a million years would I ever visit pat, two I do not need booking service Thai style as here we have Trivago and a few others that do all that for us. You where being tested mate and failed. No Idea what Khao San Road is, but if you recommend it I will tell my friends not to bother going there. Thanks for you help.

[maxpower]

7 minutes ago, wakeupplease said:

For one never in a million years would I ever visit pat, two I do not need booking service Thai style as here we have Trivago and a few others that do all that for us. You where being tested mate and failed. No Idea what Khao San Road is, but if you recommend it I will tell my friends not to bother going there. Thanks for you help.

Out of your depth yet again. Funny guy.

[Justgrazing]

On 11/12/2017 at 1:05 PM, JSixpack said:

 

Then was great, esp the parking. Overall, though, today's better, w/o going into detail. I don't see things just in terms of black and white. Millions more visitors are enjoying Pattaya now.

 

 

And so?

 

 

One your typical little strawman erections. My reply is the same:

 

 

 

 

 

But ALL the significance is predicated on the drains, nothing else. Pattaya's had flooding since forever, a few days every year when people wouldn't be going to the beach anyway. It's made no discernible difference in anything.

 

If they fixed the drains, you'd merely find a new obsession that everything depends on. It's rather as with the promenade. You were hopping up and down about the shade. Then when it has shade, you forget about that; then everything depends on the seating, and you pretend there's no seating above Klang and pretend you don't have a portable seat. Getting tired of the silliness yet?

 

Nor did the parade turn into a fiasco; you wish, but nobody much cared about the parade anyway. Certainly WE both didn't. Pattaya's always had parades; it might rain on any parade at any time. Thais take these things in stride, though this one did cause some attention because of the visitors. And so? 

 

Methinks the problem isn't actually Pattaya but with yourself and your own bitterness. Me, I'm still enjoying the place and the people here after many years and adapt to issues w/o whinging about them. And I don't worry about things that don't concern me and I can't change. I don't engage in phony hand wringing just to feel superior.

 

I enjoy a lot of little interactions w/ the Thais--like joking around (in Thai) w/ the ladies in Subway yesterday. One saw that I'm pleasant and friendly and showed me US dollar bill some customer gave her. I examined it carefully for counterfeiting and explained about George Washington and how he kicked out the vile Brits, who then came to whinge in Thailand. And that Eye on top the pyramid--it sees all and knows all about YOU. And that Eagle--gon' kick anybody's butt who makes problems, so be careful. Had a good laugh w/ those ladies . . . and so it happens often.

Whoa 'pack and just how multi-talented are you .. not only propaganda mouthpiece for the counter narrative against the choristers , but also authenticater of bank notes , sweet talker of Subway staff and even a A-merican history teacher .. And pleasant and friendly with it .. I'll wager she was suitably impressed .. though the penny shot description of the Brits as vile may have lost you points if she harboured a silent affection for Brits .. who also went whingeing in loads of places ( read Empire ) before turning up in thailand .. And there is plenty of subject matter here to get revved up about .. Is there not .? Drains , beach , corruption , crime , traffic , incompetence , double standards corruption , incompetence with cheese on , etc .. Its not known as a city of grime , crime and short-time for nothing you know .. Thaibeachlovers was bang on berating beach and road .. It takes a special brand of buffoonery seemingly only available here to consistently fail to deal with its issues so his description if it being a schiezen hausen is not far off target .. The OP repo' that incoming is up may be the case .. Who cares .. Not I 'far too busy looking out for road pot-holes , sidewalk potholes , p*ssed up motorists etc .. But maybe for a bit of authenticity you should go do a head count just to ensure the authorities have not been uttering porkie pies about the numbers arriving .. again .. Alternatively you could go ferral and become a chorister yourself though that may involve removing any Thai tinted spectacles as only truly caustic vitriol will be accepted as genuine .. choristers have ways and means for weeding out Trojan horse double agents .. knowhatimsaying ..

[chrisandsu]

1 hour ago, Justgrazing said:

Whoa 'pack and just how multi-talented are you .. not only propaganda mouthpiece for the counter narrative against the choristers , but also authenticater of bank notes , sweet talker of Subway staff and even a A-merican history teacher .. And pleasant and friendly with it .. I'll wager she was suitably impressed .. though the penny shot description of the Brits as vile may have lost you points if she harboured a silent affection for Brits .. who also went whingeing in loads of places ( read Empire ) before turning up in thailand .. And there is plenty of subject matter here to get revved up about .. Is there not .? Drains , beach , corruption , crime , traffic , incompetence , double standards corruption , incompetence with cheese on , etc .. Its not known as a city of grime , crime and short-time for nothing you know .. Thaibeachlovers was bang on berating beach and road .. It takes a special brand of buffoonery seemingly only available here to consistently fail to deal with its issues so his description if it being a schiezen hausen is not far off target .. The OP repo' that incoming is up may be the case .. Who cares .. Not I 'far too busy looking out for road pot-holes , sidewalk potholes , p*ssed up motorists etc .. But maybe for a bit of authenticity you should go do a head count just to ensure the authorities have not been uttering porkie pies about the numbers arriving .. again .. Alternatively you could go ferral and become a chorister yourself though that may involve removing any Thai tinted spectacles as only truly caustic vitriol will be accepted as genuine .. choristers have ways and means for weeding out Trojan horse double agents .. knowhatimsaying ..

What’s really funny is he can say what he likes, especially about the British  then whenever you blast his nonsense he reports your posts! You couldn’t make up how pathetic his drivel is . A typical septic lots of hot air but not much action .... just look at the mess they made of the Philippines and the lasting legacy ..... 

[newnative]

14 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

For one never in a million years would I ever visit pat, two I do not need booking service Thai style as here we have Trivago and a few others that do all that for us. You where being tested mate and failed. No Idea what Khao San Road is, but if you recommend it I will tell my friends not to bother going there. Thanks for you help.

      And still.  And still.  And still I find myself utterly astounded and completely puzzled that you, and the other posters, take valuable time out of your lives to post comment after comment on a place you despise and, in your case, will never visit 'in a million years'.  Clearly a mystery for the ages.   Why, pray tell, as someone who will never, ever visit, do you care whether Pattaya is booming?

[Destiny1990]

27 minutes ago, newnative said:

      And still.  And still.  And still I find myself utterly astounded and completely puzzled that you, and the other posters, take valuable time out of your lives to post comment after comment on a place you despise and, in your case, will never visit 'in a million years'.  Clearly a mystery for the ages.   Why, pray tell, as someone who will never, ever visit, do you care whether Pattaya is booming?

most be pure envy and cant even to afford living in Pattaya.

[JSixpack]

11 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

I'll wager she was suitably impressed .. though the penny shot description of the Brits as vile may have lost you points if she harboured a silent affection for Brits .. who also went whingeing in loads of places ( read Empire ) before turning up in thailand ..

3

 

10 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

What’s really funny is he can say what he likes, especially about the British  then whenever you blast his nonsense he reports your posts! You couldn’t make up how pathetic his drivel is . A typical septic lots of hot air but not much action .... just look at the mess they made of the Philippines and the lasting legacy ..... 

 

 

 

[maxpower]

6 hours ago, newnative said:

      And still.  And still.  And still I find myself utterly astounded and completely puzzled that you, and the other posters, take valuable time out of your lives to post comment after comment on a place you despise and, in your case, will never visit 'in a million years'.  Clearly a mystery for the ages.   Why, pray tell, as someone who will never, ever visit, do you care whether Pattaya is booming?

I can image there being quite a few folk bitter and angry towards Pattaya especially those who lost everything to a rice farmers daughter.

[Rimmer]

A troll / flame has been removed

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, maxpower said:

I can image there being quite a few folk bitter and angry towards Pattaya especially those who lost everything to a rice farmers daughter.

One of lifes little pleasures, watching the sun set over the rice paddies of Pattaya.

[wakeupplease]

On 12/13/2017 at 1:46 PM, maxpower said:

Out of your depth yet again. Funny guy.

Learning from you thanks for the lessons

 

5 hours ago, maxpower said:

I can image there being quite a few folk bitter and angry towards Pattaya especially those who lost everything to a rice farmers daughter.

Rice farmers daughter?, Hang on I will go and have a look >>>>>> No she is still in bed ( as she worked last night as a doctor in the UK NHS) so she has not left yet and believe it or not what she earned last night, you could live for a month or so on. But you are right her dad did a bit of rice farming back in the day and owning shops also, but he is getting a bit old now, so rents out the land to others. But in its day it did pay for her to go to nursing school and on to a masters degree and on to a better life abroad. I hope that helps. I hope one day you are as lucky as I am, in the mean time enjoy the BG/s

[maxpower]

2 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

Learning from you thanks for the lessons

 

Rice farmers daughter?, Hang on I will go and have a look >>>>>> No she is still in bed ( as she worked last night as a doctor in the UK NHS) so she has not left yet and believe it or not what she earned last night, you could live for a month or so on. But you are right her dad did a bit of rice farming back in the day and owning shops also, but he is getting a bit old now, so rents out the land to others. But in its day it did pay for her to go to nursing school and on to a masters degree and on to a better life abroad. I hope that helps. I hope one day you are as lucky as I am, in the mean time enjoy the BG/s

Gotcha :)

[wakeupplease]

 

Gotcha :)

 

Sounds like you had a nice dream last night?

[bodymassagemyfriend]

On 13/12/2017 at 10:56 AM, newnative said:

     If the hotel occupancy is 62%, the likely reason is all the illegal condo rentals now being done.  I know The Base, Centric Sea, Unixx, and many other condos in good locations are packed with illegal short term renters, some staying only one or two nights.   All these tourists should be in hotels, not residences.   It's a mystery to me why the managers of all these hotels losing business haven't banded together and demanded action by the city to curtail this illegal activity.  Acting in concert, they would be a powerful voice and might be able to force some change.  They could also point out all the hotel taxes being lost each time a tourist books an illegal condo vs. a hotel room.

If all those guys where in hotel , there would be no 'Centric Sear' or 'The Base' , 'Unixx' condo ... Why should we not use it by the way , the worse neighbors where expats which Thai wife was cooking fish ,leaving the door open , and the farang expact showing his belly  , close to naked in the condo. 

[morrobay]

14 minutes ago, bodymassagemyfriend said:

If all those guys where in hotel , there would be no 'Centric Sear' or 'The Base' , 'Unixx' condo ... Why should we not use it by the way , the worse neighbors where expats which Thai wife was cooking fish ,leaving the door open , and the farang expact showing his belly  , close to naked in the condo. 

May I ask what your nationality / ethnic is Mr bmmf ?

 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, bodymassagemyfriend said:

If all those guys where in hotel , there would be no 'Centric Sear' or 'The Base' , 'Unixx' condo ... Why should we not use it by the way , the worse neighbors where expats which Thai wife was cooking fish ,leaving the door open , and the farang expact showing his belly  , close to naked in the condo. 

     Why should you not use it?  Because it is illegal in Thailand, as it is in most places in the world, and with most  condo by-laws, as well.  So, you are breaking the law, as is the person renting you the condo.  Said person will probably also fail to report you to Immigration, which is also required and done routinely by hotels.   As for the condos you mentioned, of course they would have been built, and done fine, without the illegal short-term renters. 

      The Base, Unixx, and Centric were specifically designed primarily as weekend getaway condos for Bangkokians, as was the earlier and very successful Lumpini Park Beach Jomtien.  All four built by large Bangkok developers.  They were on the drawing boards before Airbnb became popular.  If you look at the original sales brochure for The Base, there is not a single farang pictured.  The photos are all of young, urban professional Thais frolicking at their beach getaway.  The Base was mostly marketed in Bangkok and was mostly sold or booked before the sales office even opened in Pattaya.   With no Airbnb and the like, these 3 condos would be functioning as they were designed--with a large number of Bangkok owners occasionally visiting, a fair amount of long-term renters, some seasonal foreigner owner/renters, and some year-round owners. 

      

[chrisandsu]

7 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Why should you not use it?  Because it is illegal in Thailand, as it is in most places in the world, and with most  condo by-laws, as well.  So, you are breaking the law, as is the person renting you the condo.  Said person will probably also fail to report you to Immigration, which is also required and done routinely by hotels.   As for the condos you mentioned, of course they would have been built, and done fine, without the illegal short-term renters. 

      The Base, Unixx, and Centric were specifically designed primarily as weekend getaway condos for Bangkokians, as was the earlier and very successful Lumpini Park Beach Jomtien.  All four built by large Bangkok developers.  They were on the drawing boards before Airbnb became popular.  If you look at the original sales brochure for The Base, there is not a single farang pictured.  The photos are all of young, urban professional Thais frolicking at their beach getaway.  The Base was mostly marketed in Bangkok and was mostly sold or booked before the sales office even opened in Pattaya.   With no Airbnb and the like, these 3 condos would be functioning as they were designed--with a large number of Bangkok owners occasionally visiting, a fair amount of long-term renters, some seasonal foreigner owner/renters, and some year-round owners. 

      

I would think the majority of condos that are not occupied would be owned by the Bangkok Thais you speak of ? They can’t sell them , they can’t rent them long term at a profit that covers costs so what’s the alternative ? The Thais are not stupid enough to clamp down as condo sales will fall

off the cliff over night ! When a business does well in Asia 5 more spring up on the same road until no one makes money . The same will happen with this . 

[lapamita]

Condos ..massive oversupply, same as Hotel rooms..main problem

 

if Condos cant be rented, the Value of them would be nearly 0

 

there is nearly no demand for living, and nearly no posibility anymore  for rent them longterm

 

even good shortterm renatl is yielding less  than 4% NET after costs (mainteance ,electric ,water,commissions,and write down on furnishing) ,mostly its around 2,5%

 

Cut out rental , and would see a furtehr fall of 50% in prices easy

 

The trend to rent condos is worlwide........and for here, dont stop it, ifdo it like spain , owners need a document and pay a flat tax on rental , the only 'Normal" choics, if

 

 

[newnative]

16 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

I would think the majority of condos that are not occupied would be owned by the Bangkok Thais you speak of ? They can’t sell them , they can’t rent them long term at a profit that covers costs so what’s the alternative ? The Thais are not stupid enough to clamp down as condo sales will fall

off the cliff over night ! When a business does well in Asia 5 more spring up on the same road until no one makes money . The same will happen with this . 

      Foreigners need to get over their thinking that a condo always needs to be occupied.  There are so many posts on TV exclaiming about such and such a property not being used.  Especially with condos, and low condo fees, rich Bangkokians can have a weekend Pattaya condo that they seldom use.  Under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be looking to sell it.  Or rent it--not worth the bother and they want it available when they get the whim to get away from BKK.

     When I lived at Lumpini Park Beach the 2 condos on either side of me were owned by Bangkokians, as were most on the floor.  The ones next to me were used once on one side and twice on the other side during the year.  That's normal--although it might not seem normal if you come from a country where the condo fees are high.  You might not let a condo sit empty if you are paying $400 a month in condo fees but it becomes easier when the monthly fee is only $20.  (Lumpini 32sqm condo at 20 baht a sqm equals 640 baht equals $20. Fees may have been raised since I was there but even doubled that would only be $40.)

      So, under normal circumstances Thais would hold on to the condo, likely passing it on to their children to use.  If, however, the condo turns into a hotel and becomes unpleasant to visit, then they might sell to a Chinese buyer who immediately puts it up for rent on Airbnb, thus making the condo even more unattractive to those who prefer to live in a residence rather than a busy hotel.

     

    

[lapamita]

this projects like Lpn and so on, are worthless propertys, with no chance of any price increase.

 

own it for a weekend is a waste of money 

 

Mostly even financed, and NPLS  will show up soon , greetings from the 97 asian crisis. wait for thed ay intrestd rates go up.. the boom in hotels and condos has only reason the LOW INTREST RATE ENVIROMENT , this pushed greed ( hig profile speculation ) forward ,not only in thailand

 

and they market it first in Bangkok, yes bcs they want to sell the local quota first.  and locals even not able to sell to foreigners, due to F quota

 

i know friends sitting on worthless condos at the time in thainame

 

PAttaya  problems are not the condos or hotels, its the market, the stupid laws,the rubbish, and less fun factor than before..combinaded with less spending power of normal and medium class incommers in the western world.

 

No fun, No love...... NO Money comes , easy

[chrisandsu]

20 minutes ago, newnative said:

      Foreigners need to get over their thinking that a condo always needs to be occupied.  There are so many posts on TV exclaiming about such and such a property not being used.  Especially with condos, and low condo fees, rich Bangkokians can have a weekend Pattaya condo that they seldom use.  Under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be looking to sell it.  Or rent it--not worth the bother and they want it available when they get the whim to get away from BKK.

     When I lived at Lumpini Park Beach the 2 condos on either side of me were owned by Bangkokians, as were most on the floor.  The ones next to me were used once on one side and twice on the other side during the year.  That's normal--although it might not seem normal if you come from a country where the condo fees are high.  You might not let a condo sit empty if you are paying $400 a month in condo fees but it becomes easier when the monthly fee is only $20.  (Lumpini 32sqm condo at 20 baht a sqm equals 640 baht equals $20. Fees may have been raised since I was there but even doubled that would only be $40.)

      So, under normal circumstances Thais would hold on to the condo, likely passing it on to their children to use.  If, however, the condo turns into a hotel and becomes unpleasant to visit, then they might sell to a Chinese buyer who immediately puts it up for rent on Airbnb, thus making the condo even more unattractive to those who prefer to live in a residence rather than a busy hotel.

     

    

I get ya ! My in laws own properties all over the place , barely any are rented out and I get to stay in them whenever I want too . Some people here have far more cash money then we could ever dream of ! Thailand is not the hand to mouth existence it used to be !  

[lapamita]

4 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

I get ya ! My in laws own properties all over the place , barely any are rented out and I get to stay in them whenever I want too . Some people here have far more cash money then we could ever dream of ! Thailand is not the hand to mouth existence it used to be !  

yes all are millionars..and you have a good buissenes woman ,for sure

 

own a condo without any chance of cpital increase, and use it 5 days a year, evrybody would be cheaper of, rent a 5 star preisdent suite in a hotel

[newnative]

20 minutes ago, lapamita said:

this projects like Lpn and so on, are worthless propertys, with no chance of any price increase.

 

own it for a weekend is a waste of money 

 

Mostly even financed, and NPLS  will show up soon , greetings from the 97 asian crisis. wait for thed ay intrestd rates go up.. the boom in hotels and condos has only reason the LOW INTREST RATE ENVIROMENT , this pushed greed ( hig profile speculation ) forward ,not only in thailand

 

and they market it first in Bangkok, yes bcs they want to sell the local quota first.  and locals even not able to sell to foreigners, due to F quota

 

i know friends sitting on worthless condos at the time in thainame

 

PAttaya  problems are not the condos or hotels, its the market, the stupid laws,the rubbish, and less fun factor than before..combinaded with less spending power of normal and medium class incommers in the western world.

 

No fun, No love...... NO Money comes , easy

   I sold 2 Lumpini Park Beach condos at a profit and also 1 Lumpini Seaview condo (the project behind it) also at a profit.  So, maybe not worthless.

[lapamita]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

   I sold 2 Lumpini Park Beach condos at a profit and also 1 Lumpini Seaview condo (the project behind it) also at a profit.  So, maybe not worthless.

i am not a millionare, but would never stay in this monkey boxes ( some animals have more space from law)

until 2012 sales was ok, and profit could be done ( big profits was from 2001-2008) ...but since 2012......................

yes good man 7777