Pattaya booming!: European tourist arrivals "up 10%" - 'FIT' tourists up 30%

[JSixpack]

On 12/13/2017 at 4:56 PM, newnative said:

     If the hotel occupancy is 62%, the likely reason is all the illegal condo rentals now being done.  I know The Base, Centric Sea, Unixx, and many other condos in good locations are packed with illegal short term renters, some staying only one or two nights.   All these tourists should be in hotels, not residences.   It's a mystery to me why the managers of all these hotels losing business haven't banded together and demanded action by the city to curtail this illegal activity.  Acting in concert, they would be a powerful voice and might be able to force some change.  They could also point out all the hotel taxes being lost each time a tourist books an illegal condo vs. a hotel room.

 

Excellent point. The condos are seriously competing w/ the hotels now. I see The Riveria had its grand opening the other day. And more developments planned/started . . . Seems like every time I take a ride I see a new one. 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, lapamita said:

yes all are millionars..and you have a good buissenes woman ,for sure

 

own a condo without any chance of cpital increase, and use it 5 days a year, evrybody would be cheaper of, rent a 5 star preisdent suite in a hotel

     The Thais bought condos because they didn't want to stay in hotels with foreigner tourists--they wanted to be with other Thais.  That was the plan, anyway. The annual meeting I attended at Lumpini Park Beach condo was conducted entirely in Thai with lots of Bangkok Thai owners in the audience and there were only a handful of farangs.  Big turnout, by the way.

[JSixpack]

3 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

I would think the majority of condos that are not occupied would be owned by the Bangkok Thais you speak of ? They can’t sell them , they can’t rent them long term at a profit that covers costs so what’s the alternative ?

3

 

2 hours ago, newnative said:

      Foreigners need to get over their thinking that a condo always needs to be occupied.  There are so many posts on TV exclaiming about such and such a property not being used.  Especially with condos, and low condo fees, rich Bangkokians can have a weekend Pattaya condo that they seldom use.  Under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be looking to sell it.  Or rent it--not worth the bother and they want it available when they get the whim to get away from BKK.

 

 

If they got over that thinking, that would greatly shorten our CONDO GLUT/CRASH threads, which this seems to have turned into. And then we could dispense with that amusing measure of whether a condo block is sufficiently occupied: the lights on at night count, the Eyeballs equivalent of the shopping bag count in the malls. I had a smile at this the other night passing by Markland, which had a relatively small number of lights on. Another failed development!

 

On my own floor a very wealthy Bangkok owner has 3 units he put together and beautifully remodeled. He and the family visit once, maybe twice a year--if that.

 

But obviously a large number of foreigners do the same. They simply like having their own place to stay whenever they happen to visit and have the money to indulge. It may be the majority of foreign owners aren't critically concerned about the profit or lack thereof to be made on their condo purchase, though profit is of course always nice to have. They have other investments or income . . . .

[newnative]

8 minutes ago, JSixpack said:

 

 

If they got over that thinking, that would greatly shorten our CONDO GLUT/CRASH threads, which this seems to have turned into. And then we could dispense with that amusing measure of whether a condo block is sufficiently occupied: the lights on at night count, the Eyeballs equivalent of the shopping bag count in the malls. I had a smile at this the other night passing by Markland, which had a relatively small number of lights on. Another failed development!

 

On my own floor a very wealthy Bangkok owner has 3 units he put together and beautifully remodeled. He and the family visit once, maybe twice a year--if that.

 

But obviously a large number of foreigners do the same. They simply like having their own place to stay whenever they happen to visit and have the money to indulge. It may be the majority of foreign owners aren't critically concerned about the profit or lack thereof to be made on their condo purchase, though profit is of course always nice to have. They have other investments or income . . . .

     Yes, so true.  Although I think the 'lights on at night' test can now be a fairly accurate indication that a condo is suffering a lot of short-term illegal rentals.  Take a gander at The Base any evening.

[bkk6060]

I have posted about this before.

The "weekend getaway" thinking is not happening here at The Base.  Or, at Centric for that matter.  Don't know about Onyx.

100's of people are checking in here every day.  Security here facilitates it.

The Thais on my floor who bought for a weekend getaway, are now renting them ST.

Even though there are signs at the entry that say "short term rentals are illegal".  It is truly a corrupt system here at The Base.

It is big big money. 

I know one Chinese lady here who has 40 units.  All rented by her, then she rents ST to Chinese customers.

My guess is she is making 300 to 400,000 b a month.

I rarely if ever see a Thai here anymore.  Just mostly Chinese, some Falang, and a mix of others.

[bkk6060]

S...

Tonight Central to Jomtien one hour plus in a car......

Packed with traffic.

I have a motorbike but my stupid GF wanted to drive (her car).

I am starting to get the "high season".  

Frustrating, but glad to see this place popular and doing OK.

 

[newnative]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I have posted about this before.

The "weekend getaway" thinking is not happening here at The Base.  Or, at Centric for that matter.  Don't know about Onyx.

100's of people are checking in here every day.  Security here facilitates it.

The Thais on my floor who bought for a weekend getaway, are now renting them ST.

Even though there are signs at the entry that say "short term rentals are illegal".  It is truly a corrupt system here at The Base.

It is big big money. 

I know one Chinese lady here who has 40 units.  All rented by her, then she rents ST to Chinese customers.

My guess is she is making 300 to 400,000 b a month.

I rarely if ever see a Thai here anymore.  Just mostly Chinese, some Falang, and a mix of others.

     Sad how it's turned out there. I owned a condo there, since sold, and had a good long term tenant.  He liked living there at first--he was one of the first tenants--but once it turned into a 'hotel' he moved out when his lease was up.   Same with the Bangkok Thais who thought they were buying a weekend getaway.  Can't really blame them for either selling their units or giving in and renting, too.

     At one point a fingerprint system was considered--really the only way to get a handle on the problem--but by the time the proposal was raised all the owners doing the short-term rentals had the upper hand. 

[Rimmer]

Some off topic posts have been removed, can we discuss the topic please and not other members wives

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:49 PM, JSixpack said:

 

Almost nothing nowadays as the tourist demographic has changed so dramatically. But they had something to do with the commuters back in 1994 where you live. Hence when CentralFestival would go bankrupt as the mongers wouldn't pay "Bangkok prices," the commuters working there would lose their jobs and and their spending power. But as you noted the mongers were replaced by another tourist demographic you didn't anticipate--for some reason.

The thread isn't about me, so perhaps you could leave me out of it, if that is possible, but I fear you have some uncontrollable urge to continually refer to things I wrote long, long ago.

I wouldn't remember anything you wrote next week, let alone years ago.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, newnative said:

     Sad how it's turned out there. I owned a condo there, since sold, and had a good long term tenant.  He liked living there at first--he was one of the first tenants--but once it turned into a 'hotel' he moved out when his lease was up.   Same with the Bangkok Thais who thought they were buying a weekend getaway.  Can't really blame them for either selling their units or giving in and renting, too.

     At one point a fingerprint system was considered--really the only way to get a handle on the problem--but by the time the proposal was raised all the owners doing the short-term rentals had the upper hand. 

Is it any surprise to anyone lived in LOS more than 5 minutes that the law will be ignored if some greedy people can get rich by doing so?

Never mind though, smoking on the beach is a far, far more heinous crime than illegally renting condos for short time profit. As long as the authorities priorities are correct what's to complain about?

I'd expect the condo situation to be sorted about the same time as they arrest all the jet ski scammers and do something about the traffic.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

S...

Tonight Central to Jomtien one hour plus in a car......

Packed with traffic.

I have a motorbike but my stupid GF wanted to drive (her car).

I am starting to get the "high season".  

Frustrating, but glad to see this place popular and doing OK.

 

I may be accused of being a wet blanket, but numbers don't mean profit when many come on zero baht tours, or try to haggle over a 10 baht bus trip, and as a certain demographic is now under represented, certain sectors of Pattaya businesses will continue to do badly, no matter how many cars on the road ( petrol companies will be doing very nicely though ).

Furthermore I'd venture that the people that drive cars in Pattaya are not tourists that spend money in tourist locations, even if they are not Pattaya residents.

 

PS I hope you have learned to ignore your GF when she wants to drive the car in Pattaya.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 11:00 PM, wakeupplease said:

Learning from you thanks for the lessons

 

Rice farmers daughter?, Hang on I will go and have a look >>>>>> No she is still in bed ( as she worked last night as a doctor in the UK NHS) so she has not left yet and believe it or not what she earned last night, you could live for a month or so on. But you are right her dad did a bit of rice farming back in the day and owning shops also, but he is getting a bit old now, so rents out the land to others. But in its day it did pay for her to go to nursing school and on to a masters degree and on to a better life abroad. I hope that helps. I hope one day you are as lucky as I am, in the mean time enjoy the BG/s

It always amuses me when I go to Central and see all the rice farmers grand daughters that think they are "special" because their fathers were able to get enough money not to be rice farmers anymore. 

Back to topic. How do the authorities manage to identify European "tourists" in Pattaya as distinct from farang residents coming back after a visit home. They don't even know where I am as I have to front up every 90 days to remind them I'm still here. 

[bkk6060]

Just wait for T21.  

I know not everyone agrees but a spectacle mall like that will actually bring more people here.  It is part of the Chinese tours in Bangkok walking around with the flags floor to floor. I am excited about it but I am sure enhanced traffic nightmares are coming.

[chrisandsu]

11 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Just wait for T21.  

I know not everyone agrees but a spectacle mall like that will actually bring more people here.  It is part of the Chinese tours in Bangkok walking around with the flags floor to floor. I am excited about it but I am sure enhanced traffic nightmares are coming.

I went to a T21 in korat today , it’s gash to be honest . Nothing to write home about . 

[JSixpack]

Just now, chrisandsu said:

I went to a T21 in korat today , it’s gash to be honest . Nothing to write home about . 

 

Don't tell us--you didn't see anybody in there and don't know how it stays open.

 

[Rimmer]

An off topic post discussing another member has been removed also a disrespectful post

[Rimmer]

Multiple posts have been reported and have been removed along with replies.

 

Please confine your comments to content that is contained in the topic you are discussing.

Please discuss that content only and not other posters

 

[JSixpack]

On 12/16/2017 at 2:27 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I may be accused of being a wet blanket, but numbers don't mean profit when many come on zero baht tours, or try to haggle over a 10 baht bus trip

 

 

The zero baht tours ended more than a year ago and that ban is being seriously enforced.

 

https://news.thaivisa.com/article/7056/chinese-zero-dollar-tour-hotel-shut-down

https://news.thaivisa.com/article/12296/prosecutors-lodge-appeal-in-zero-dollar-tour-case-dismissal

 

Hence the OP isn't talking about zero baht tours at all.

 

Nobody has been trying to haggle over a 10 baht bus trip; nor would such haggling succeed. Or maybe you have evidence to cite?

 

Quote

, and as a certain demographic is now under represented, certain sectors of Pattaya businesses will continue to do badly, no matter how many cars on the road ( petrol companies will be doing very nicely though ).

1

 

 

It isn't clear that a certain demographic is now under represented as that sector has been greatly overbuilt so that the demographic is merely spread a lot more thinly than before. In any case an overbuilt sector will not do as well as one that isn't overbuilt.

 

And then more cars on the road do mean that other sectors catering for the occupants of said cars will do better than sectors in which the occupants aren't interested. So? Obvious, innit? And what that means is that the Pattaya economy is, oh, 4 or 5 times larger than it was during the monger heyday, as you may compare by watching the video from 1994 I directed your attention to earlier.

 

Quote

Furthermore I'd venture that the people that drive cars in Pattaya are not tourists that spend money in tourist locations, even if they are not Pattaya residents.

 

 

A significant portion of those who drive cars during typical tourist periods (weekends, holidays, high season etc.) are likely tourists even though TAT: TVF refuses to classify Thai tourists as tourists, as do so would spoil the narrative. And they are spending money in tourist locations other than the beer bar locations. And not just in "tourist locations," but around town most anywhere. But our ace TVF Economists usually confuse spending with revenue generation, as it seems you have, and don't understand the latter. But spending is by far the lesser part of generated.

 

Maynard Keynes verified the concept of the “multiplier effect” in his economic studies in the 1930s. The concept has perhaps the greatest applicability in the tourism industry.

 

Tourists spend money on travel, lodging, food and beverage and in retail stores thus creating direct income, government revenue (taxes) and employment. There are more effects such as money spent on supplies, inventory replacement, and all the other products and services that supply the place where the tourist spends. All of these subsequent places are classified as indirect or multipliers of the original dollars spent.

 

Numerous studies have been conducted that reveal for every dollar a tourist spends anywhere from $3 to $10-plus additional dollars of expenditures are generated into the economy.

 

Just think about sources of state revenue more directly labeled taxes, or in the case of tourism, taxes paid for by nonstate residents. . . . There are the tolls, gasoline taxes, taxes on retail purchases, taxes on alcoholic beverages, general sales taxes, taxes on rental cars, etc., etc. These “taxes” form a large input to the revenue taken in by the state . . . .

     --https://bangordailynews.com/2011/02/18/business/tourism-dollars-are-essential-to-state’s-economy/

 

In fact the Thais coming in from Bangkok (and surrounding areas), driving cars, did account for the shocking early success of CentralFestival, which is now increased by Chinese, Koreans, Russians, etc.

 

A majority of local "people that drive cars" and motorbikes working in Pattaya businesses are also beneficiaries directly or indirectly of tourist revenue generation.

 

But not only cars are driven in Pattaya now. We also have (cough) tour buses. As the OP points out, the FIT market is growing as well. That assertion is consistent w/ other independent observations, e. g.

 

But rising individualism and financial independence are seeing more and more young Chinese choose to defy custom, while at the same time tourism and outbound travel are surging. . . . Growing numbers are also seizing the opportunity for tourism, despite slowing growth in the world's second-largest economy. . . . Chinese travellers are by far the biggest spenders in the world, splashing $165 billion in countries they visited last year, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organisation.

New Year, New Travel: More Chinese Choose Tourism Over Tradition

So I don't see that your post makes any valid points.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 4:07 PM, chrisandsu said:

I went to a T21 in korat today , it’s gash to be honest . Nothing to write home about . 

I haven't been to the one there, but if the one being built in Pattaya is anything like the one in Bkk the Central shop owners should be sweating.  It's always packed when I go there, and deservedly so.

The Pattaya one will be easier to drive to than Central as well, though I can see the jams becoming even more severe than at present.

My only beef about Central is that I'd have preferred it in Jomptien as Pattaya is definitely over malled at present, and Jomptien should have a large mall like T21.

[newnative]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I haven't been to the one there, but if the one being built in Pattaya is anything like the one in Bkk the Central shop owners should be sweating.  It's always packed when I go there, and deservedly so.

The Pattaya one will be easier to drive to than Central as well, though I can see the jams becoming even more severe than at present.

My only beef about Central is that I'd have preferred it in Jomptien as Pattaya is definitely over malled at present, and Jomptien should have a large mall like T21.

      T21 is being built right where it should be--and, sorry, that's not Jomtien.   T21 and Festival should both do well, thanks to a little thing called synergy.   Which also explains why, if it's ever built, Asiatique Prime is also slated for Pattaya.  Obviously, the more popular and successful an area is, the more businesses want to be in that area.  Which makes it even more popular, and then more businesses want...well, you get the picture. 

     Which also explains why most of the new highrise hotels that have opened have also been in Pattaya.  Why Chang has just started work on redeveloping Grand Sole Hotel and the tracks of land beside it.  And, why Amari just tore down its perfectly ok lowrise hotel wing to replace it with a highrise all-suites tower.  It goes without saying that every new attraction that Pattaya gets, such as T21, makes Pattaya a more desirable destination both for a wider variety of international tourists and also for Thais.

[Banana7]

On 12/13/2017 at 3:48 PM, Banana7 said:

I just checked with my GF who works at a 4 star hotel here in Pattaya. She said hotel occupancy was 63% on Monday Dec. 11, 2017 and on Tuesday it was 62%, not very busy for high season.

 

I just checked with my GF who works at a 4 star hotel here in Pattaya. She said hotel occupancy was more than 90% on Friday December 15, 2017 and Saturday.

 

[whitemouse]

I can report that from September on, most Chinese who choose to stay in condos, instead of hotels choose Centric, don't know why. Probably it is marketed towards Chinese more effectively than, say, Base. 

My research is based on dating apps hook ups, so you know it's scientific!

Seriously, whole groups of Chinese stay at Centric for just few days, it is very annoying when after arriving at downstairs Centric my Chinese date texts me 'Oh, btw, my group member is sleeping in the same room, is that ok?'. I hate that!

[bkk6060]

I have to say I am enjoying all the Xmas decorations and music in the stores and malls. Xmas is about the birth of Christ.

But, I kind of don't get it.  Only 1% of the Thais are Christian and most of the visitors here now are not. Give a Thai a Xmas gift and they mostly have no idea why.

I also do not see any major Xmas shopping going on in the malls.

Like I say some of the displays are beautiful I am happy.  Just is a little strange.

[whitemouse]

3 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I have to say I am enjoying all the Xmas decorations and music in the stores and malls. Xmas is about the birth of Christ.

 

Like I say some of the displays are beautiful I am happy.  Just is a little strange.

 

Not sure about birth of Christ, but I, too, love the decorations. They add to the general 365 days a year wonderland feeling of Pattaya, the trees are nice, and I think at Bali Hai people should reenact naitivity scenes, maybe add some sensual angle to 3 Wise Men (or was it 4, even better, I have few go go boys in mind who'd be perfect for the job), maybe cover part of Walking St with hay, and bring in live sheep.. It would all make our exciting town even more exciting!

 

[chrisandsu]

3 hours ago, whitemouse said:

 

Not sure about birth of Christ, but I, too, love the decorations. They add to the general 365 days a year wonderland feeling of Pattaya, the trees are nice, and I think at Bali Hai people should reenact naitivity scenes, maybe add some sensual angle to 3 Wise Men (or was it 4, even better, I have few go go boys in mind who'd be perfect for the job), maybe cover part of Walking St with hay, and bring in live sheep.. It would all make our exciting town even more exciting!

 

Hate to state the obvious but finding The Virgin Mary could be a problem .

[JSixpack]

8 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I have to say I am enjoying all the Xmas decorations and music in the stores and malls. Xmas is about the birth of Christ.

But, I kind of don't get it.  Only 1% of the Thais are Christian and most of the visitors here now are not. Give a Thai a Xmas gift and they mostly have no idea why.

I also do not see any major Xmas shopping going on in the malls.

Like I say some of the displays are beautiful I am happy.  Just is a little strange.

 

Not the same holiday, to the confusion of Westerners. The Thai holiday is krit maat, just as in Japan it's kurisimasu. It's a time for gift-giving, some Western Christmas music (you rarely hear the religious-themed music, however; but even if so, nobody understands the words), and Santa Clause. Obviously these customs were observed and adopted, but never the religious aspect. Hence it's not an official holiday.

 

In Asia, there doesn't need to be a "why" for a social custom--or lots of other things. In Thailand, that seems to hold true rather commonly, as expats eventually learn.  The ritual is performed for the sake of the ritual, that's it. In the case of krit maat, other people are doing it, the stores of course promote it, the decorations are nice, and who doesn't like receiving gifts? 

 

 

[Banana7]

23 hours ago, Banana7 said:

I just checked with my GF who works at a 4 star hotel here in Pattaya. She said hotel occupancy was more than 90% on Friday December 15, 2017 and Saturday.

Yesterday, Tuesday 19 December 2017, occupancy at the hotel was 72%.

[chrisandsu]

12 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

Not the same holiday, to the confusion of Westerners. The Thai holiday is krit maat, just as in Japan it's kurisimasu. It's a time for gift-giving, some Western Christmas music (you rarely hear the religious-themed music, however; but even if so, nobody understands the words), and Santa Clause. Obviously these customs were observed and adopted, but never the religious aspect. Hence it's not an official holiday.

 

In Asia, there doesn't need to be a "why" for a social custom--or lots of other things. In Thailand, that seems to hold true rather commonly, as expats eventually learn.  The ritual is performed for the sake of the ritual, that's it. In the case of krit maat, other people are doing it, the stores of course promote it, the decorations are nice, and who doesn't like receiving gifts? 

 

 

The Thais are smart ! They celebrate our new year , the Chinese New Year , the Thai new year ! Get days off work for all of them ? I would too .

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

The Thais are smart ! They celebrate our new year , the Chinese New Year , the Thai new year ! Get days off work for all of them ? I would too .

You are thinking like a westerner. The vast majority of Thais don't get more than one day off a week ( if they are lucky ) and a few days holiday during the year, and not necessarily at the same time. They work whether it's a bank holiday or not.

[mike1967]

Tourism is up, are they sure about this? From what I know less and less people are going. After 8 years of more and more ridiculous rules, constant visa changes and let's not go there with the police. I can't even smoke an e cigarette, really!!! I've finally given up with the place