Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge

[grollies]

On 14/12/2017 at 11:00 AM, kickstart said:

the Thai way is, you take off  50-55 % for K O %, which  is killing out % what you  have left in the meat , once the head, hide, bones  ect are taken out.

So , the cost of 1 animal would be about 18-20 000 baht, which is what you paid, for some of your cattle.

I use this system when some farmers have asked me what this cull cow is worth ,not  normally far out .

Also the Thai way,is a  one pricing system  for all class of stock ,that would be for cull cows and fat beef  cattle , and the bags of bones you see grazing beside the roads ,( now about 80-90 baht/kg), now as you say,  the price is  110 baht/kg , making it a bearly viable proposition, to produce good quality beef here in Thailand ,they are some outlets that will buy quality beef, but not easy to find,one near me ,but he will still only pay no more than 20 baht/kg above market price .

So,your estimate of 500 kg , bull selling for 55 000 could be way out .

Or look at this way, our local market sells beef from 220-250 baht/kg ,a beef bull weighing say 450 kg ,on the hoof ,then take off 50% KO%

Is this right mate? At Makro today and you could buy nearly every part of the bullock, even down to lips, feet and carcass scrapings. Skull and bones weigh a bit but 50% KO? Plus there must be money in the hide?

 

Don't know but just asking?

[kickstart]

19 minutes ago, grollies said:

Is this right mate? At Makro today and you could buy nearly every part of the bullock, even down to lips, feet and carcass scrapings. Skull and bones weigh a bit but 50% KO? Plus there must be money in the hide?

 

Don't know but just asking?

Ok this is Thailand, and thay will eat more than we would back home ,it would be the slaughterhouse that sells the hide, they would also sell all the bones ect.

I have been to a lot of Thai markets ,never seen lips and feet for sale ,just  meat ,and the offal .

Makro sell lips ,feet ect , because  it is all frozen and can sit they untill it is sold ,If our local market sold a fresh bullocks foot ,what would you do with them ,Dtom-Yam , bullocks  foot, the dog would like them .

A lot depends on breed as well most Europen breeds will have a KO% of 56 % and probbaly USA feed lots, a fit Belgium Blue might make 60%.

Here in Thailand ,the Thai French meat company in Sakon Nakon, their cattle will make 56% , they do they cattle well ,and  thay are 60% Charlies ,but your average Thai cattle 50%, if the thing has long ears  would struggle to make 50% .

Have a look at Mr  Google ,he should tell you 

[grollies]

45 minutes ago, kickstart said:

Ok this is Thailand, and thay will eat more than we would back home ,it would be the slaughterhouse that sells the hide, they would also sell all the bones ect.

I have been to a lot of Thai markets ,never seen lips and feet for sale ,just  meat ,and the offal .

Makro sell lips ,feet ect , because  it is all frozen and can sit they untill it is sold ,If our local market sold a fresh bullocks foot ,what would you do with them ,Dtom-Yam , bullocks  foot, the dog would like them .

A lot depends on breed as well most Europen breeds will have a KO% of 56 % and probbaly USA feed lots, a fit Belgium Blue might make 60%.

Here in Thailand ,the Thai French meat company in Sakon Nakon, their cattle will make 56% , they do they cattle well ,and  thay are 60% Charlies ,but your average Thai cattle 50%, if the thing has long ears  would struggle to make 50% .

Have a look at Mr  Google ,he should tell you 

Thank you.

[farmerjo]

I guess the other thing that has not been discussed is the age of the cow or bull you want to sell for beef.

I couldn't see an agent or feed merchant paying you the same for a 2 year old and a 12 year old 500 kilo beast.

There would have to be discounts for older ones,ones with broken legs etc.

 

[Khun Jean]

I am in an area with lots of dairy cows. I am considering setting up a 'microgreens' production.

Would those microgreens (barley, corn, wheat) also be useful for fattening up cattle?

 

[grollies]

11 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

I am in an area with lots of dairy cows. I am considering setting up a 'microgreens' production.

Would those microgreens (barley, corn, wheat) also be useful for fattening up cattle?

 

Napier grass?

[grollies]

11 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

I am in an area with lots of dairy cows. I am considering setting up a 'microgreens' production.

Would those microgreens (barley, corn, wheat) also be useful for fattening up cattle?

 

Napier grass?

[farmerjo]

18 minutes ago, Khun Jean said:

I am in an area with lots of dairy cows. I am considering setting up a 'microgreens' production.

Would those microgreens (barley, corn, wheat) also be useful for fattening up cattle?

 

What varieties of barley and wheat do you have access to in Thailand?

 

[Khun Jean]

Barley and wheat probably have to be imported. I am not ready for that step though.

Finding reliable sources is the biggest hurdle. Sofar no luck yet.

mung beans or soya might be possible, but barley would be a better choice.

 

 

[Slugs11]

Hi FJ,  we do have a 50% Hereford bull, which we use on some of our cows. We use AI to try increasing the breed to 75% ( Hereford and Angus), and on one of his daughters. Also with using AI then get to pick from some of the best bulls available, therefore increasing the quality of our cattle. Most Thai bulls around my area are Brahma, or the Indo brazil long ear. These animals do not produce good beef IMO.

 

The buyers (meat) are always looking for Angus cattle at our local market. I am not sure why more Thai farmers don’t keep Angus, as there is a demand for them. Guess they are so set in their ways, with there type of cattle.

 

We have a fairly big cattle farm close to us. Like the OP, they raise bulls for beef. They export some to Vietnam. Feed on Maise silage and there own mixed concentrate meal. They only keep bulls, as there theroy is, if no cows about then the bulls are docile (they do not castrate them either). Looking at there pens which are mostly bamboo and/or one steel pole then they seem to be right. They seem to have most Brahman with a some Charloais. 

[kickstart]

1 hour ago, farmerjo said:

I guess the other thing that has not been discussed is the age of the cow or bull you want to sell for beef.

I couldn't see an agent or feed merchant paying you the same for a 2 year old and a 12 year old 500 kilo beast.

There would have to be discounts for older ones,ones with broken legs etc.

 

HI FJ

         Good question, it seems to be another Thai oddball ,age does not seem to matter so much, body condition seems to count more than age, we joke in our house  about the beef on our  local market ,is  a 2 year steer, or a 10-year-old geriatric cow that dropped dead in the field ,you never know,also beef is not  a big part of the Thai diet ,quite a few Thai's that rear cattle will not eat beef ,Buddhist   believes ,and Kama ect.

As I said before, what the OP  wrote about that 650 kg bull,he would be about  4 years old, probably a Brahman x , starting to get a bit tough at 4 years old . but still selling for a good price .a dairy farmers selling a fat cull cow ,that cow could well be 7-8 years old,again it will probaly go in to the food chain,again for your 110baht/kg ,trying to find a good quality 2 year beef in Thailand not easy ,it is out they .

,I have said before the  Thai/ French company, and a similar company,in Supanburi, have good quality beef that will be about 24-30 moths old ,but thay also use good quality stock ,Charalies x Brahman , and more important they feeding and management is good .

Your average Thai farmer, trying to rear beef will struggle to rear quality beef , for them rearing a dozen, beef cattle ,for 18 months ,they do not have the cash flow, the bank BAAC, could lend  them the money ,still think he will struggle  as has been said before he will still only sell them for 110 bart/kg,unless he is lucky and find someone who will ,pay a premium for his cattle .then thay will still be  3 year old probably Brahman x .

And now we have a breed problem ,10 years ago the Indo Brazil breed was popular ,they are a show breed ,not a eating  breed all legs and ears ,buying and selling  for a lot of money,  but now they are being crossed with other breeds and thay never get fat  ,have seen some going to slaughter  well over 3 years old ,(tell age by looking at the teeth),geting   well tough .  

A dairy farmer near here  he rears some Freisan bulls .sells them at 24 -30 months old , good quality stock  gets 20-30 baht/kg above market price , but he also has a monthly milk cheque to help pay for all the feed ect ,good cash flow. 

Cattle with broken legs ect will only sell for about 30 % of they full value,  same for thin bags of bones cattle thay will sell at 70-90 baht/kg .dairy as well as beef cattle. 

[kickstart]

13 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

Barley and wheat probably have to be imported. I am not ready for that step though.

Finding reliable sources is the biggest hurdle. Sofar no luck yet.

mung beans or soya might be possible, but barley would be a better choice.

 

 

Here in Thailand you  would probably have to use maize ,at harvest time you can buy maize at 6-7 baht /Kg,from a local buyer, and hope that the moisture  is about 15--17% , any higher you will get a mold problem  if you keep the corn for any length of time,

Soya would be to expensive at15- 20 baht/ kg would eat into your profit margin.

Mung beans ,again about 10-12 baht/kg?also depends on where you live not grown in all areas.

As has been said wheat and barley does not grow well in Thailand , most is imported ,a lot from Europe ,the UK a few years ago sent 20 000 ton of wheat  to Thailand , could  look in Thai Google for Thai  grain  importers ,near me is a Betagrow feed mill ,thay have trucks come  here every day from the port with impoted grain for livestock feed ,but a grain impoter will whant to sell you 50 ton bulk, not 1-2 ton that you will need .

Still think it will be maize 

[kickstart]

13 hours ago, Slugs11 said:

Hi FJ,  we do have a 50% Hereford bull, which we use on some of our cows. We use AI to try increasing the breed to 75% ( Hereford and Angus), and on one of his daughters. Also with using AI then get to pick from some of the best bulls available, therefore increasing the quality of our cattle. Most Thai bulls around my area are Brahma, or the Indo brazil long ear. These animals do not produce good beef IMO.

 

The buyers (meat) are always looking for Angus cattle at our local market. I am not sure why more Thai farmers don’t keep Angus, as there is a demand for them. Guess they are so set in their ways, with there type of cattle.

 

We have a fairly big cattle farm close to us. Like the OP, they raise bulls for beef. They export some to Vietnam. Feed on Maise silage and there own mixed concentrate meal. They only keep bulls, as there theroy is, if no cows about then the bulls are docile (they do not castrate them either). Looking at there pens which are mostly bamboo and/or one steel pole then they seem to be right. They seem to have most Brahman with a some Charloais. 

Any ider what an Angus x in your area sells for ?,Indo Brazil ,have been a disaster on the Thai beef industry .  

[kickstart]

Just now, kickstart said:

Any ider what an Angus x in your area sells for ?,Indo Brazil ,have been a disaster on the Thai beef industry .  

Sorry , forgot ,after 10 years  farmers are finally realizing that  Indo Brazil's,or Indo Brazil crosses do not produce beef, again things happen slowly here in LOS.

[Khun Jean]

2 hours ago, kickstart said:

As has been said wheat and barley does not grow well in Thailand , most is imported ,a lot from Europe ,the UK a few years ago sent 20 000 ton of wheat  to Thailand , could  look in Thai Google for Thai  grain  importers ,near me is a Betagrow feed mill ,thay have trucks come  here every day from the port with impoted grain for livestock feed ,but a grain impoter will whant to sell you 50 ton bulk, not 1-2 ton that you will need .

Still think it will be maize 

I have some importer that sells barley for 300US$ per ton. Minimum 5 ton. I will grow it only a few days so it can be done in temperature/moisture controlled conditions (20ft containers). Not willing to buy 5 tons to get my process right. Also i would need to at least be able to inspect the quality, which is another difficulty. I'll get there but it will take some time.

[Slugs11]

Hi KS, approx 50% or less Angus 15- 18 month old heifer/cow is going 30-35k. Have seen ONE good looking Angus bull 2yr old, at the market, they wanted 45k for him. Wish now I had bought him. Not easy to find good quality. Hence reason why trying to breed 75% Hereford bull calf. We then plan to will use him on the Angus cows.

[kickstart]

41 minutes ago, Slugs11 said:

Hi KS, approx 50% or less Angus 15- 18 month old heifer/cow is going 30-35k. Have seen ONE good looking Angus bull 2yr old, at the market, they wanted 45k for him. Wish now I had bought him. Not easy to find good quality. Hence reason why trying to breed 75% Hereford bull calf. We then plan to will use him on the Angus cows.

That is a good price ,I thought 25 000 baht for my heifer was good, 45 000 baht for an Angus bull , would he have weighed about 400 kg ?, not over big , but a good solid animal ,a stake from him would be nice.

We had an Angus x bull 2 years ago , suffered badly from heat stress , mum is a Simmental/Freisan x Brahman /Indo ,it would have made her bull 75%  European blood, about the maximum in a hot climate to prevent heat stress,this bull did not grow well ,we sold him ,did not make a lot on him .

So will your bull suffer from heat stress,sounds if he will be over 75 % ,European blood .

When I worked in the uk we had Herefords, never any problems, always liked them ,but have read that in hot climates ,with the white face ,you can get eye problems ,flys like the white face, have you had any problems.

 

[kickstart]

3 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

I have some importer that sells barley for 300US$ per ton. Minimum 5 ton. I will grow it only a few days so it can be done in temperature/moisture controlled conditions (20ft containers). Not willing to buy 5 tons to get my process right. Also i would need to at least be able to inspect the quality, which is another difficulty. I'll get there but it will take some time.

 Barley 300  USD/ton is 9.80 baht/kg, maize would be cheaper and more readily available, buy a few kg of maize ,get the job right then buy your barley.

Buying corn in bulk and some where to store it that is dry and rat proof, another container for storage only could be worth the cost. The below link has something  on hydroponics, speedo1980 put in some good links on the subject ,one link on feed quality and a negative energy balance makes you think twice.

Growing grass for hay - Farming in Thailand Forum - Thailand Visa ...

[CLW]

HI FJ
         Good question, it seems to be another Thai oddball ,age does not seem to matter so much, body condition seems to count more than age, we joke in our house  about the beef on our  local market ,is  a 2 year steer, or a 10-year-old geriatric cow that dropped dead in the field ,you never know,also beef is not  a big part of the Thai diet ,quite a few Thai's that rear cattle will not eat beef ,Buddhist   believes ,and Kama ect.
As I said before, what the OP  wrote about that 650 kg bull,he would be about  4 years old, probably a Brahman x , starting to get a bit tough at 4 years old . but still selling for a good price .a dairy farmers selling a fat cull cow ,that cow could well be 7-8 years old,again it will probaly go in to the food chain,again for your 110baht/kg ,trying to find a good quality 2 year beef in Thailand not easy ,it is out they .
,I have said before the  Thai/ French company, and a similar company,in Supanburi, have good quality beef that will be about 24-30 moths old ,but thay also use good quality stock ,Charalies x Brahman , and more important they feeding and management is good .
Your average Thai farmer, trying to rear beef will struggle to rear quality beef , for them rearing a dozen, beef cattle ,for 18 months ,they do not have the cash flow, the bank BAAC, could lend  them the money ,still think he will struggle  as has been said before he will still only sell them for 110 bart/kg,unless he is lucky and find someone who will ,pay a premium for his cattle .then thay will still be  3 year old probably Brahman x .
And now we have a breed problem ,10 years ago the Indo Brazil breed was popular ,they are a show breed ,not a eating  breed all legs and ears ,buying and selling  for a lot of money,  but now they are being crossed with other breeds and thay never get fat  ,have seen some going to slaughter  well over 3 years old ,(tell age by looking at the teeth),geting   well tough .  
A dairy farmer near here  he rears some Freisan bulls .sells them at 24 -30 months old , good quality stock  gets 20-30 baht/kg above market price , but he also has a monthly milk cheque to help pay for all the feed ect ,good cash flow. 
Cattle with broken legs ect will only sell for about 30 % of they full value,  same for thin bags of bones cattle thay will sell at 70-90 baht/kg .dairy as well as beef cattle. 

KS, you made an interesting point at the end of your post.
I know from my home that nowadays the male offspring of milk cow breeds are sold for almost nothing to sometimes free.
How about the situation in Thailand?
I've read that they can be raised for beef but of course with lower output than a special beef breed bull.
You've got any information or experience about that?

[473geo]

Enjoyed the read guys

 

Out of interest any of you guys know of an agricultural 'outlet' where it is possible to buy things like wormer, louse powder, perhaps, antiseptic sprays/ antibiotic powder, salve for teats, just general run of the mill maintenance products for cattle? Do they have things such as burdizzo? or a dehorning iron?

 

Not crucial you understand but if there is such a place in the Surin area would be good to know

[kickstart]

14 hours ago, CLW said:

KS, you made an interesting point at the end of your post.
I know from my home that nowadays the male offspring of milk cow breeds are sold for almost nothing to sometimes free.
How about the situation in Thailand?
I've read that they can be raised for beef but of course with lower output than a special beef breed bull.
You've got any information or experience about that?

HI CLW

            I do not know about other areas in Thailand, but around here fresian bull calvs are sold at birth, for the past 18 months ,a lot of local farmers have been buying them ,thay buy them  for about  5-7 00 baht ,most seem to rear them on to about 12 -15 months ,and sell them on ,who buys them and what happens to them I am not certain,most are not over fit , being feed  a 14% concentrate ,and rice straw,or grass cut from the heage bottom,thay seem to be happy selling them for 10 000baht /head ,thay ownly buy 1-2 bags of cocentrat  here  and 1-2 bales of straw  thiey ,and thay  not seem to "miss" the money ,so that 10 000 baht, them is mainly profit, the Thai way . 

A lot are sold to 2 main buyers, they rear them up 2-3 months, where they are loaded on to pickups and taken up to Chaing Mie, where they are sold on for barbeques, as the new year approaches the price for newborn calves will go up ,up 1500 baht , the citizens of CM must like barbeque calf for the new year .

I know a few dairy farmers who will keep a bull calf back ,feed it on antibiotic milk , milk that can not be sent for human consumption ,for up to 4 months, as one farmer said , better than feeding it to the dogs, then feed it on what ever the cows eat ,and at about 15 months sell it on , often as a fit animal ,for about 12-15 000 baht ,nice bit of pocket money .

In theory, on paper ,you could make more money rearing Friesian bulls for beef than Brahman ,the Friesian breed will fatten quicker than  a Brahman,Brahmans being a slower maturing  breed than Freisans ,and as I have said before since the Indo Brazil breed arrived, some Brahman x's are almost impossible to fatten .

Some Friesian breeds have a lot of Holstine blood in them ,the Holstine being a big dairy breed ,and big lanky  cows ,the bulls if feed very well could make a beef animal by about  20 -24 month ,but feed costs could be high , outweighing profits

The uk had a system, un cut  Freisan bulls where feed soya and good quality grass silage ,18 months old  sold as beef , here in LOS soya/ maize, soya on its own to expensive, and Nappier grass silage, Nappier cut at no more than 50 days, might work.

[kickstart]

15 hours ago, 473geo said:

Enjoyed the read guys

 

Out of interest any of you guys know of an agricultural 'outlet' where it is possible to buy things like wormer, louse powder, perhaps, antiseptic sprays/ antibiotic powder, salve for teats, just general run of the mill maintenance products for cattle? Do they have things such as burdizzo? or a dehorning iron?

 

Not crucial you understand but if there is such a place in the Surin area would be good to know

I have said a good few times, I live in a big dairy cow area , and wormers teat salve ect  are readily available ,you could Thai Google dariry co-op NE Thailand, thay  are some dairy co-ops in Issan, thay should have what you need ,or a shop near them.

Or,or, if you drive, and are coming well down south one day ,leave the Friendship highway,at Mortlec  Saraburi, Mortlec is the home of the Thai-Denmark milk group , lots of cows, and lots of shops selling  what you need ,best one is next to the Thai Military Bank ,used it myself .

Burdizzo's and dehorning irons Giss Marketing in Bangkok will have them ,the dehorning irons are eletric ,I have used them ,alright on young calves up 50 days ,are older not so good ,not enough heat ,never seen gas de horners in Thailand .

The photos are of de horners I made myself,heat them you in a charcoal stove,gas stove does not provide enough heat, thay look rough,but work well ,local anesthetic is available branded as lidocaine, about 60 baht /bottle .

[473geo]

25 minutes ago, kickstart said:

I have said a good few times, I live in a big dairy cow area , and wormers teat salve ect  are readily available ,you could Thai Google dariry co-op NE Thailand, thay  are some dairy co-ops in Issan, thay should have what you need ,or a shop near them.

Or,or, if you drive, and are coming well down south one day ,leave the Friendship highway,at Mortlec  Saraburi, Mortlec is the home of the Thai-Denmark milk group , lots of cows, and lots of shops selling  what you need ,best one is next to the Thai Military Bank ,used it myself .

Burdizzo's and dehorning irons Giss Marketing in Bangkok will have them ,the dehorning irons are eletric ,I have used them ,alright on young calves up 50 days ,are older not so good ,not enough heat ,never seen gas de horners in Thailand .

The photos are of de horners I made myself,heat them you in a charcoal stove,gas stove does not provide enough heat, thay look rough,but work well ,local anesthetic is available branded as lidocaine, about 60 baht /bottle .

Thanks for the info Kickstart. I will have to go carefully to steadily introduce 'new' ideas into the current farming pattern. It is my way to suggest change then wait a little time for the take up, I'm not one for 'taking over' or giving commands!!My wife is doing exceptionally well improving the quality of the stock.

Just one more question if I may, do you inject the local anesthetic into the soft spot behind the eye?

My preferred dehorner would actually be your home made version. 

[Slugs11]

KS,

 

Our hereford cows are 50/50. So will use AI Hereford straw, which should in theory give us 75 %Hereford bloodline. Do not plan to go higher than this. As you have said before, any bigger percentage then will start to have broblems with possible heat stress etc.

 

We have 3 white faced 50% herefords, have not had any eye problems to date, try to keep the pens cleaned out or strawed down, so not to attract too many flies. Our shed is built high to allow the wind to blow through, so never seen any sign of heat stress, with any of our cattle. The couple of small fields we let them out to graze, have some trees which they can stand/lay under.

 

At Ubon cattle market, often see freisans bull calfs (3-9 months)  for sale, never seem to be in good condition. Believe some dealers buy them cheap in big milking areas like where you are, and then transport to our area, to sell to the local farmers who think they can fatten them up like their local cow.

[kickstart]

3 hours ago, 473geo said:

Thanks for the info Kickstart. I will have to go carefully to steadily introduce 'new' ideas into the current farming pattern. It is my way to suggest change then wait a little time for the take up, I'm not one for 'taking over' or giving commands!!My wife is doing exceptionally well improving the quality of the stock.

Just one more question if I may, do you inject the local anesthetic into the soft spot behind the eye?

My preferred dehorner would actually be your home made version. 

Yes ,as I was told ,back of the eye ,at the base of the skull ,Thai lidocain is 2%, if you inject 3 cc that should do the job ,if the calf is  over 3-4 months with visable horns may need  4 cc.

At least you will use an local anesthetic , never seen a Thai use one when dehorning calves,I think the reason is they do not know how to .

[473geo]

7 minutes ago, kickstart said:

Yes ,as I was told ,back of the eye ,at the base of the skull ,Thai lidocain is 2%, if you inject 3 cc that should do the job ,if the calf is  over 3-4 months with visable horns may need  4 cc.

At least you will use an local anesthetic , never seen a Thai use one when dehorning calves,I think the reason is they do not know how to .

Well for years in the UK I removed the horn buds without anesthetic, for sure there was some pain but I was always amazed at the speed the calves returned to normality. In fact I was never sure if the jab behind the eye might be just as painful!! There doesn't have to be a lot of burn if you are good. But yes I would use now.

[EVENKEEL]

58 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Well for years in the UK I removed the horn buds without anesthetic, for sure there was some pain but I was always amazed at the speed the calves returned to normality. In fact I was never sure if the jab behind the eye might be just as painful!! There doesn't have to be a lot of burn if you are good. But yes I would use now.

The dairy I worked on in the 70s, we castrated, dehorned and branded at once. Not a pretty sight.

[473geo]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

The dairy I worked on in the 70s, we castrated, dehorned and branded at once. Not a pretty sight.

we found castration with nippers is more successful later than dehorning I guess you used rings? I also used the knife and burn seal method of castration on older cattle, removing the pods, we ate the pods, nice with garlic and onion. Was trained well cattle only tied at the head got kicked once, the first time, then was given the best advice - get in close.

 

[kickstart]

 

The dairy farm I said reared a few Friesian bulls ,the first  two are about 2 years old , and will be sold soon ,the third one is about 15 months old ,there  where  8 cattle in this pen  all about the same age ,he was the best , they was one that I wrote about all leg and lanky ,that will take some fattening .

They diet was dairy concentrate, a16% pelleted feed ,maize silage and nappier grass, and when I was there ,some rice straw, thay had some brewers grains ,which thay feed to the dairy cows ,I said feed some to the bulls help them to put weight on ,at about 2 baht/kg a cheap feed.

The two 2-year-olds weighed about 430 kg ,the guy will keep them a bit longer .he said the price was 130baht/kg ,and he was expecting 30 000 baht each.

 When I was they last time  he had some better stock, Friesian bulls about 20 months old  , he said they where starting to get  nasty and stroppy, and sold them, about right for Friesians, In the uk the rules and regs ,and heath and safety about keeping bulls ,and bullpens, makes keeping a dairy bull  difficult , the guy near me with his 600 kg fresin  bull ,rope through the nose ,tied to a stake in the ground ,well safe .

Sugs11, Well impressed with your stock, your Hereford cow almost make me homesick, did you say what you feed them , can not remember. 

[kickstart]

6 minutes ago, 473geo said:

we found castration with nippers is more successful later than dehorning I guess you used rings? I also used the knife and burn seal method of castration on older cattle, removing the pods, we ate the pods, nice with garlic and onion. Was trained wlell cattle only tied at the head got kicked once, the first time, then was given the best advice - get in close.

 

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When I was taught  castation it was rubber rings before the calf was 7 days old ,or at weaning time calf  45 days old ,using a  knife ,did not seal the wound ,just lots of the pupal spray, use to de horn at the some time  ,once  castrated some 9-10  month old suckler bulls ,just stood in a cattle crush ,a bar across the back ,as you say get in close ,no  problems .but did use a local anathetic ,helped a lot .

In New Zealand , and  have seen it in the uk ,a red paste ,I think it had some  costic soda in , applied to the horn  buds when the calf is about 3-5 days  old ,burns  the buds, dose work well ,have seen it over here .does not work so well,