Overstaying Brit arrested after death of Pattaya bar girl is convicted rapist on the run from UK police

[badischer Barde]

two things...

 

1. innocent until proven guilty!

 

2. Rape is an incredibly stupid crime. Why risk 5 years of prison for rape (and ruining a persons life) if you could as well just steal 200$ and pay a prostitute, risking a slap on the hand instead of 5 years in prison?

Unless... it's not about sex, but about violence, about hurting women. In which case "it was an accident" would be highly unlikely with this guy. Hope the prosecutor ups the charge to murder.

[i claudius]

I have not read all the post but have read the papers and about this guy .
As far as i can see he is a piece of sh-t and deserves all he gets. I for one care not a jot .as for turning his life around well he did , full circle and he is back where he started up to his neck in what he is

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sanemax]

47 minutes ago, farcanell said:

ill have to revisit that case where a Krabi climbing guide chased a woman over a cliff at night time, which paralyzed her, thus enabling him to climb down and sexually molest her for a number of hours... that was truly heinous... I wonder what he got for that. (Pretty sure I was on the hang em side of that debate)

I seem to recall that he got ten years , and halved for pleading guilty .

Although that sounds lenient , he didnt actually chase her when she fell over the cliff .

She felt uneasy and just decided to run for it , unfortunately she fell off a cliff .

The guy did previously try to assault her , but not when she fell

[farcanell]

44 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

'Terrible character' just happening to including violence and rape for which he is an absconding criminal.

Ok then... this is new news.... I thought he had served his time for the rape, including any early release portion.... in which case, he isn’t absconding for or/ from them... (2012 conviction, 4 3/4 year sentence... expired incarceration period, just.)

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Ok then... this is new news.... I thought he had served his time for the rape, including any early release portion.... in which case, he isn’t absconding for or/ from them... (2012 conviction, 4 3/4 year sentence... expired incarceration period, just.)

He was due in Court on drug related issues (selling?) and instead of attending the Court, he fled to Thailand

[farcanell]

 

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

He was due in Court on drug related issues (selling?) and instead of attending the Court, he fled to Thailand

Yes... this is not new.... “including violence and rape for which he is absconding”... that’s the new news.

[Basil B]

Quote

On 12 October 2017 he was due to appear at Worcester Crown Court accused of being concerned in the supply of heroin and crack cocaine, but he failed to turn up.

An outstanding bench warrant was issued and, according to the Crown Prosecution Service, it is still outstanding.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/worcester-man-arrested-over-thai-14132634

 

Well when he finishes his vacation at the Bangkok Hilton he can expect a few years at Her Majesties pleasure... 

[Basil B]

2 minutes ago, farcanell said:

 

Yes... this is not new.... “including violence and rape for which he is absconding”... that’s the new news.

He was sentenced to 4 years and 9 months for that in 2012  and probably served half of that in prison, before then he served 15 months in the Royal Logistic Corps where he was discharged because he had a dicky ticker... 

[farcanell]

2 minutes ago, Basil B said:

He was sentenced to 4 years and 9 months for that in 2012  and probably served half of that in prison, before then he served 15 months in the Royal Logistic Corps where he was discharged because he had a dicky ticker... 

As I thought.... so not absconding from rape charges.

[bkkcanuck8]

 

23 minutes ago, Basil B said:

He was sentenced to 4 years and 9 months for that in 2012  and probably served half of that in prison, before then he served 15 months in the Royal Logistic Corps where he was discharged because he had a dicky ticker... 

He should not have been released that early.  Well, if he does have a dicky ticker - the Thai prison will be a death sentence - so karma eventually balances out.

[evadgib]

18 hours ago, Senior Player said:

And my I ask what’s your agenda? Are you applying to be his defense lawyer? You must have posted numerous comments on these boards in defense of this guy’s actions, which goes way beyond the normal partisan observer. My claim, as you so put it, was that he should never have been allowed to travel to begin with. Also, that he should have been serving a longer prison sentence for his previous crime: the one of rape and battery of a teenager - I made that quite clear. You strike me as someone that’s taking great delight in nitpicking other poster’s comments, but ignoring the fact that he was an illegal overstayer, a thief, and someone that was involved in a young girl’s death. Your remarks about being relieved that some of us aren’t part of the jury is insignificant as none of us will be asked to begin with. Are you going to now question whether a rapist isn’t on a UK Sex Offenders register? And as you probably already know, being such an honourable legal eagle, that registered sex offenders are required to notify the police taken by the MOSOVO officer of all foreign travel. OK, I might have missed the latest update that the bench warrant for another offense was issued after he left the country, but I only have your word for that so far. I’m sure you’ll be just as selective with what’s being reported elsewhere, so big deal. He’s still someone that came to a country with the intention of breaking the immigration rules, stole and was involved in a girl’s death. Can we agree on that, Mr Perry Mason?

Try making your points without having a pop at the poster! 

[Destiny1990]

4 hours ago, farcanell said:

Well done destiny.... almost there

 

he is currently charged with one serious crime which is being investigated... there may be more charges laid as a consequence

 

but... your wording just changed from your origional claim about him being guilty of “despicable crimes”, to “serious crimes”.... so logic is starting to prevail

 

remove the word “several” from your post... and your 100% correct, as things stand right now

Mate he going to be charged with several serious despicable crimes. What he did is very despicable.

[dfdgfdfdgs]

7 hours ago, KhunMhee said:

The fact she had not died

 

How do you know she had not died.  The article does not say either way.  I think it likely that she died on impact.

[farcanell]

8 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Mate he going to be charged with several serious despicable crimes. What he did is very despicable.

No worries buddy.... perhaps your right.... but as yet you have no information about charges being laid for any “despicable” crime.

 

That’s correct, right?

 

ergo, you cannot name them, as requested (following your claim), Because they don’t exist..... and may never exist.... the police investigation may take a month, IF he is to be charged

 

 

[KhunMhee]

20 minutes ago, dfdgfdfdgs said:

 

How do you know she had not died.  The article does not say either way.  I think it likely that she died on impact.

Re read it. She had not died and the ambulance team tried to stabilize her. It's in the article.

[toughlove]

Why on earth would he Bar fine a prostitute with a many witnesses and then murder her? That's not how premeditated killers operate.

 

Previous convictions are very rarely allowed into court and for good reason

 

Stealing and running are shit things to do but it's the norm in Thailand. Doesn't make him a killer though

 

 

[Jip99]

8 minutes ago, toughlove said:

Why on earth would he Bar fine a prostitute with a many witnesses and then murder her? That's not how premeditated killers operate.

 

Previous convictions are very rarely allowed into court and for good reason

 

Stealing and running are shit things to do but it's the norm in Thailand. Doesn't make him a killer though

 

 

\

 

 

Doesn't mean he didn't kill her either.

 

Murder is totally out of the question.

[toughlove]

\

 

 

Doesn't mean he didn't kill her either.

 

Murder is totally out of the question.

Why would you think he didn't throw her off the balcony in a fit of alcohol and yaba rage ? What is that if not murder.

 

 

 

[Jip99]

23 minutes ago, toughlove said:

Why would you think he didn't throw her off the balcony in a fit of alcohol and yaba rage ? What is that if not murder.

 

 

 

 

 

It is called manslaughter, murder is premeditated (which I consider to be most unlikely and certainly unprovable).

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

It is called manslaughter, murder is premeditated (which I consider to be most unlikely and certainly unprovable)..... read up on your law.

 

 

No Murder does not necessarily involve premeditation.  Murder is the unlawful killing of a person usually with intent and malice - but this does not mean premeditation.  Malice just really means of criminal mind.  (Section 288).  You could be in a state of rage and lash out -- that is murder since it was done with criminal mind in that in that instance you acted ... but involves no premeditation.   It is punishable by up to 20 years in prison.  

 

If the act of murder was committed in a premeditated way - it can be punishable under section 289 of the penal code -- by the death penalty.  (there is more to this section - it applies to both murder and manslaughter and alters sentencing)

 

If you unlawfully kill someone without intent or meditation but as an act like punching them meaning to injure them but they were killed - it drops into manslaughter (section 290). 

 

 

Whoever, doing the act by negligence and that act causing the other person to death, shall be imprisoned not more of ten years or fined not more of twenty thousand Baht. (section 291)

 

So you are telling someone to read up on the law - but you seem to have misunderstood a basic concept as well.

 

http://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/criminal-code-murder-death-sections-288-294/

[Jip99]

8 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

No Murder does not necessarily involve premeditation.  Murder is the unlawful killing of a person usually with intent and malice - but this does not mean premeditation.  Malice just really means of criminal mind.  (Section 288).  You could be in a state of rage and lash out -- that is murder since it was done with criminal mind in that in that instance you acted ... but involves no premeditation.   It is punishable by up to 20 years in prison.  

 

If the act of murder was committed in a premeditated way - it can be punishable under section 289 of the penal code -- by the death penalty.  (there is more to this section - it applies to both murder and manslaughter and alters sentencing)

 

If you unlawfully kill someone without intent or meditation but as an act like punching them meaning to injure them but they were killed - it drops into manslaughter (section 290). 

 

 

Whoever, doing the act by negligence and that act causing the other person to death, shall be imprisoned not more of ten years or fined not more of twenty thousand Baht. (section 291)

 

So you are telling someone to read up on the law - but you seem to have misunderstood a basic concept as well.

 

http://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/criminal-code-murder-death-sections-288-294/

 

 

He still won't be charged with murder............

 

 

Well, in Thailand he just might......................... but no way would it stick.

 

 

NB... In no way am I defending this slime-ball, I am just saying that I do not see it as murder

 

Murder is defined as an unlawful killing of a person usually committed with intent and malice. Malice is associated with the word mens rea which means “criminal mind”.

 

http://www.thailandlaw.org/thai-law-on-murder.html

 

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

He still won't be charged with murder............

 

 

Well, in Thailand he just might......................... but no way would it stick.

 

 

NB... In no way am I defending this slime-ball, I am just saying that I do not see it as murder

It is unlikely he will be charged with murder -- since they initially charged him with negligent homicide (basically).  That does not mean it won't change.  Thailand courts do not necessarily limit themselves to the letter of the law -- so yes, it could stick if the judge thinks it is appropriate.  You have to look no farther than the written LM laws vs those that are in prison for it.  

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

It is unlikely he will be charged with murder -- since they initially charged him with negligent homicide (basically).  That does not mean it won't change.  Thailand courts do not necessarily limit themselves to the letter of the law -- so yes, it could stick if the judge thinks it is appropriate.

 

 

As it is all conjecture, I am happy to wager 100 Baht

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

As it is all conjecture, I am happy to wager 100 Baht

It will depend greatly on how the defendant presents himself before the judge.  

[toughlove]

 

 

It is called manslaughter, murder is premeditated (which I consider to be most unlikely and certainly unprovable).

 

 

Wrong. This was a guy in oz that had a fight after sex then locked the girl on the balcony cause she went nuts and then she tried to climb down but fell

 

He was charged with murder.

 

http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/courts-law/mother-of-gold-coast-balcony-victim-warrienna-wright-to-attend-gable-tostee-murder-trial/news-story/ac467348a93748afcff819ac5c6457fc

 

Your getting confused between murder one and two.

 

Manslaughter is absolutely not a throw off the baconly charge. If he threw her he is done murder!

 

Another balcony thrower.. Life

 

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/just-another-crim-in-the-yard-simon-gittanys-life-behind-bars/news-story/e76dc539ea317bd67db47670f30eb14a

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

8 minutes ago, toughlove said:

Wrong. This was a guy in oz that had a fight after sex then locked the girl on the balcony cause she went nuts and then she tried to climb down but fell

He was charged with murder.

http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/courts-law/mother-of-gold-coast-balcony-victim-warrienna-wright-to-attend-gable-tostee-murder-trial/news-story/ac467348a93748afcff819ac5c6457fc

Your getting confused between murder one and two.

Manslaughter is absolutely not a throw off the baconly charge. If he threw her he is done murder!
 

This exact situation is not covered by Thai law that I can see.  Many western countries have written certain statutes that if someone dies as a result of another crime - regardless of intent, malice, premeditation etc. it automatically rises to murder.  The theory is that the person died as part of a premeditated criminal act.  In this case the unlawful imprisonment of the girl.  So in this case I think your example is flawed.  You are correct that murder (1st degree, 2nd degree by US reference) is the difference between premeditated murder and murder without premeditation.  Thai law also has this distinction (sections 288 and 289 of the Thai penal code).

 

The difference between murder and manslaughter is whether the act was to kill or injure.  Throwing someone off a building is an act to kill since it is reasonable that that act would result in death.  If he punched her and she died it would be manslaughter since the act was likely only intended to injure.

[toughlove]

This exact situation is not covered by Thai law that I can see.  Many western countries have written certain statutes that if someone dies as a result of another crime - regardless of intent, malice, premeditation etc. it automatically rises to murder.  The theory is that the person died as part of a premeditated criminal act.  In this case the unlawful imprisonment of the girl.  So in this case I think your example is flawed.  You are correct that murder (1st degree, 2nd degree by US reference) is the difference between premeditated murder and murder without premeditation.  Thai law also has this distinction (sections 288 and 289 of the Thai penal code).

 

The difference between murder and manslaughter is whether the act was to kill or injure.  Throwing someone off a building is an act to kill since it is reasonable that that act would result in death.  If he punched her and she died it would be manslaughter since the act was likely only intended to injure.

 

'In Thailand, the Thai Criminal Code states that any person who kills another person shall be punished by death or imprisonment for a period of 15-20 years. Death in Thailand is classified as a capital punishment"

 

Yes you do have to have intent but that is clearly the case when picking a girl up and launching her over a balcony or under a train etc etc.

 

Your confusing manslaughter with road rage 2people attacking each other and one cracks his skull and the instigator get charged

 

[bkkcanuck8]

12 minutes ago, toughlove said:

 

'In Thailand, the Thai Criminal Code states that any person who kills another person shall be punished by death or imprisonment for a period of 15-20 years. Death in Thailand is classified as a capital punishment"

Yes you do have to have intent but that is clearly the case when picking a girl up and launching her over a balcony or under a train etc etc.

Your confusing manslaughter with road rage 2 people spontaneously attacking each other and one cracks his skull

 

 

The problem is that you are getting ahead of the investigation.  We have no evidence of intent, or malice.  We have no evidence that he picked up the girl and launched her over the balcony.  We have a dead girl on the street below; we have a person of interest who fled the scene; and we have his statement (she unfortunately could not make a statement since she is dead).  We only have supposition based on what we know and what we believe could have happened -- partially from his criminal history.  If we have two reasonable theories -- #1 that she fell over the balcony wall because of negligent behaviour with regards to sex play on the balcony; #2 that she was thrown over in a fit of rage -- the presumption under the law is that the courts should always side on the lesser of the two reasonable theories/explanations.  That is why the Thai police have preliminarily charged him under the Negligent Homicide statute while they conduct the rest of their investigation.   Supposition is not evidence - at least not for an extremely long time (i.e. not since medieval times).  What would tip it to #2 -- is if they could find witnesses that would testify to a heated argument or altercation in the time leading up to her death.

[toughlove]

 
The problem is that you are getting ahead of the investigation.  We have no evidence of intent, or malice.  We have no evidence that he picked up the girl and launched her over the balcony.  We have a dead girl on the street below; we have a person of interest who fled the scene; and we have his statement (she unfortunately could not make a statement since she is dead).  We only have supposition based on what we know and what we believe could have happened -- partially from his criminal history.  If we have two reasonable theories -- #1 that she fell over the balcony wall because of negligent behaviour with regards to sex play on the balcony; #2 that she was thrown over in a fit of rage -- the presumption under the law is that the courts should always side on the lesser of the two reasonable theories/explanations.  That is why the Thai police have preliminarily charged him under the Negligent Homicide statute while they conduct the rest of their investigation.   Supposition is not evidence - at least not for an extremely long time (i.e. not since medieval times).  What would tip it to #2 -- is if they could find witnesses that would testify to a heated argument or altercation in the time leading up to her death.

I believe he is completely innocent.
We were just debating whether a launching is manslaughter or murder charge.

I think he will be deported for overstay and that's the end of it.

[dfdgfdfdgs]

1 hour ago, KhunMhee said:

Re read it. She had not died and the ambulance team tried to stabilize her. It's in the article.

Are we reading different articles?

 

There's nothing in the article at the start of this topic that says anything like that.  This is the only sentence that makes reference to her condition:

 

"Medics were unable to save her after a security man heard her fall to the ground in the early hours of Saturday."