Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Get Real said:

That´s what happens when people voting do not know what they vote for at all.

 

1 hour ago, thaiguzzi said:

As a referendum, it was never well planned or well thought out. Final count was 49-51 or similar?

 That's just too close to call, ie the losing 49%, from whatever side will feel aggrieved. And that's a helluva lot of the population.

Should have made a 2/3rds majority rule or something prior to calling it, i don't know.

What i do know is the vast majority of younger people voted Remain, whilst the vast majority of older people inc pensioners etc voted Leave. But they'll all be dead in 10-20 years, leaving the Remainers to sort out their mess. 

And it is a mess.

Me personally, i'm sitting on the fence, didn't vote, and i see negatives and positives on both sides of the argument.

 

Two different perspectives on the referendum, I don't agree with either.

 

Firstly, I was quite clear why I voted to leave. I am not an enthusiastic advocate of Brexit, I thought long and hard about the decision, considered many aspects and possible results. I came to the conclusion that to leave the EU was more in the UK's interests, in the medium and long term, than to remain. This was principaly because I object to being governed by an increasingly intrusively overarching Europe wide governing body, in itself only at best indirectly democratically elected, and in reality, it seems a self-perpetuating political group, following an agenda which is not subscribed to by the people of the UK.

 

My second main reason was the imposition of a legal system. codified and based on European statute law (dictated by an unelected body) over a system combining common law and statute law from our own directly elected parliament.

 

I cannot accept that the people did not know what they were voting for.

 

As for the second quote. I agree that the referendum was neither well thought out nor were the cases well argued - particularly the case for remaining. It may be that a majority of younger people voted to remain, but it is also the case that a significant number of younger people, many of whom are, anecdotally, now fervent "remainers" didn't or couldn't be bothered to vote. It was a close vote, and therefore by the nature of things there is a large disgruntled minority who didn't get there way, but it was hardly a surprise "snap" vote, there was ample chance to make up minds. If I could manage to arrange to cast my vote living here then I have little sympathy with those in the UK who couldn't be arssed to make it to the tens of thousands of polling stations open for 15 hours on the day of the vote. 72% did, and a majority of them voted to leave.

[Samui Bodoh]

22 minutes ago, JAG said:

I'm sorry, but it is not a good article. It seeks to link two wholly unrelated issues, homelessness, in itself often if not invariably linked with issues around mental health and addiction, and the decision of the British people, as expressed in a referendum, to leave the UK. The pitiful state of the man this journalist encounters every day has nothing to do with the referendum decision. It is deeply cynical to ascribe it to that decision. It is, I'm sorry to say, rather naive to believe that.

 

Your own country (the USA?) was born out of a political upheaval which was not, history tells us, universally or even overwhelmingly supported by what would today perhaps be described as a supermajority. Eventually, the will of the majority prevailed (albeit with substantial support from that bastion of freedom and democratic values, the pre-revolutionary French monarchial state) and the Republic was formed. Brexit is a similar if not so dramatic political upheaval. The British electorate were given the opportunity to choose and chose by a narrow majority to leave. How would you respond if, after the  Second Continental Congress in Philadelphia in 1776 it had been suggested that you leave the issue and come back and think again in a generation or so?

As always JAG, I enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not. Cheers

 

I view the central thesis of the article to be that the UK government is so tangled up with Brexit that it is neglecting other areas to be essentially accurate; we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

As to the second point regarding the Second Continental Congress in Philadelphia, 1776, if they had demonstrated the same lack of cohesion, the same lack of preparation, the same lack of aims and objectives, and the same level of general incompetence as the current UK government, then I would have said "wait!". As above, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Have a nice day!

 

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, PEE TEE said:

whole thing is a shambles . just wish they get it sorted as this crap exchange rate is killing me yep in selfish  . 

It's sorted, it wont happen

[trianglechoke]

This is an attempt to make leaving the EU a mind-blowingly painful process so other nations fear the same.

 

The Islam thing should be the focus, not squeezing a country who donated more than most.

[Baerboxer]

6 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Good article, and it makes the same point(s) that I have been making for a while.

 

The referendum was twenty months ago and the government seems not a whole lot more prepared for the consequences than they were then. Brexit is a huge, fiendishly complex process of untangling ties that have evolved over forty years or so, and the likelihood of them being severed in a reasonable manner within two years was always nonsense.

 

There is an obvious solution. The UK is simply not prepared for Brexit at this moment, so it should swallow its pride, admit that, and put off the whole idea for a generation. If there is still a desire on the part of her citizens to leave the EU in... twenty years(?), then there can be another referendum held, but this time with the proper preparation.

 

Continuing down this path will cause more harm that good, despite the results of the Referendum. Common sense desperately needs to beak out.

 

 

You've said this before, and again I comment, this has nothing to do with UK pride. Only that of a portion of the Tory party, their grandees, and political allies who've been plotting to get the UK out of the EU for many years. They want a return to the "old values" they cherish where they decide everything and get richer. The don't give a monkey's chuff for the country, the electorate, the poor and anyone outside their elite class. 

Swallowing their pride and admitting it's a cock up with more than a possibility a majority now want to remain in the EU isn't on their agenda and never will be. This group aren't big on democracy.

 

This will become a good text book case study on how one old established small but very powerful group can connive and manipulate to control a massively bigger number of people for their own benefit and claim it's all democratic!

[mlmcleod]

The Brits thought that they would just walk away from the EU and live happily ever after!  A Trump solution for sure!

 

I am amused that Theresa May thinks that Brexit is a popular issue.  She almost lost her government betting on Brexit.  I suspect she will eventually fail to satisfy anyone.

 

Brexit will eventually lead to the loss of Scotland!  The UK is on the verge of just being K!

[MaeJoMTB]

It doesn't have to be hard, all rules return to the status quo before the EU (Dump all EU law and agreements).

Reinstall border controls, escort all foreigners without a VISA out.

Stop all payments to foreign bodies (or let Germany deduct from the money they still owe England from WWII) if you want to be more polite.

Put the forces on alert, in case some foreign country wants to cause a problem.

 

It's only hard because vested interests are all trying to make the most money for themselves.

The globalists are all dragging their heels as much as possible.

I don't see any trade deals with the EU as important, China, South America and India will still do business with England, and probably at a better rate than the current EU trading. It's not as if a container ship cares how far it has to travel.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

 

 

Two different perspectives on the referendum, I don't agree with either.

 

Firstly, I was quite clear why I voted to leave. I am not an enthusiastic advocate of Brexit, I thought long and hard about the decision, considered many aspects and possible results. I came to the conclusion that to leave the EU was more in the UK's interests, in the medium and long term, than to remain. This was principaly because I object to being governed by an increasingly intrusively overarching Europe wide governing body, in itself only at best indirectly democratically elected, and in reality, it seems a self-perpetuating political group, following an agenda which is not subscribed to by the people of the UK.

 

My second main reason was the imposition of a legal system. codified and based on European statute law (dictated by an unelected body) over a system combining common law and statute law from our own directly elected parliament.

 

I cannot accept that the people did not know what they were voting for.

 

As for the second quote. I agree that the referendum was neither well thought out nor were the cases well argued - particularly the case for remaining. It may be that a majority of younger people voted to remain, but it is also the case that a significant number of younger people, many of whom are, anecdotally, now fervent "remainers" didn't or couldn't be bothered to vote. It was a close vote, and therefore by the nature of things there is a large disgruntled minority who didn't get there way, but it was hardly a surprise "snap" vote, there was ample chance to make up minds. If I could manage to arrange to cast my vote living here then I have little sympathy with those in the UK who couldn't be arssed to make it to the tens of thousands of polling stations open for 15 hours on the day of the vote. 72% did, and a majority of them voted to leave.

 

Fully understand your sentiments although disagree with your reasoning on leaving being the best medium and long term solution for the UK.

 

Two comments. The Referendum was created into law specifically as an "advisory" referendum. As such, in a representative democracy, there should have been a full parliamentary debate and voting on the subject. But are wonderful politicians bottled out and went along with the small minority rather than following their consciences and doing the job they're very well paid to do.

 

I agree on the concern over law. But to be fair, England and Welsh law, and that of Northern Ireland are common law systems whereas Scottish comes from a codified tradition albeit modified and adoptive by common law into a hybrid. These are good legal systems which is why so many international contracts choose the law of England & Wales as the governing law. But I'd suggest if you asked a poll of Leave voters how many considered the probable future replacement of our common law system with a EU codified system, likely strongly based on the French Napoleonic System (which they've been pushing) then I doubt many would have a clue what was being talked about. Had the UK voted to remain, that battle was to come for sure. With only 3 parts of the UK and Ireland having common law systems within the EU the likely outcome is pretty obvious! 

 

Agree on voting. Even if they couldn't be arsed to go and do it, postal votes are pretty easy to arrange and you don't even have to buy a stamp in the UK! 

 

There is, and should not be, anything to prevent the people in a democracy from changing their minds. 

[boomerangutang]

As an outsider looking in, I didn't think Brexit was good.   A unified Europe is preferable.  Sure there are problems areas either wy, ...but that will happen no matter how the Belgian waffle is crumbled.

 

The longer the divorce drags out, the more evident it becomes that it was a wrong decision. 

 

The parallels with the Trump vote (which happened almost concurrently) are obvious. If Americans could vote again, the tally would be v. lopsided in favor of whomever was Trump's opponent. I suspect the same is true of Brexit.

[MaeJoMTB]

4 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

The longer the divorce drags out, the more evident it becomes that it was a wrong decision. 

If it doesn't happen, there will most likely be unprecedented acts of terror in mainland England and against the EU.

Once all pretense of democracy has been dispensed with, the fighting, killing and bombing will start.

[nabbie]

7 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Good article, and it makes the same point(s) that I have been making for a while.

 

The referendum was twenty months ago and the government seems not a whole lot more prepared for the consequences than they were then. Brexit is a huge, fiendishly complex process of untangling ties that have evolved over forty years or so, and the likelihood of them being severed in a reasonable manner within two years was always nonsense.

 

There is an obvious solution. The UK is simply not prepared for Brexit at this moment, so it should swallow its pride, admit that, and put off the whole idea for a generation. If there is still a desire on the part of her citizens to leave the EU in... twenty years(?), then there can be another referendum held, but this time with the proper preparation.

 

Continuing down this path will cause more harm that good, despite the results of the Referendum. Common sense desperately needs to beak out.

 

 

That interprets that UK is struggling on behalf of 17M Brexiters. What about other 43M thinking about?  

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You've said this before, and again I comment, this has nothing to do with UK pride. Only that of a portion of the Tory party, their grandees, and political allies who've been plotting to get the UK out of the EU for many years. They want a return to the "old values" they cherish where they decide everything and get richer. The don't give a monkey's chuff for the country, the electorate, the poor and anyone outside their elite class. 

Swallowing their pride and admitting it's a cock up with more than a possibility a majority now want to remain in the EU isn't on their agenda and never will be. This group aren't big on democracy.

 

This will become a good text book case study on how one old established small but very powerful group can connive and manipulate to control a massively bigger number of people for their own benefit and claim it's all democratic!

"You've said this before, and again I comment, this has nothing to do with UK pride. Only that of a portion of the Tory party, their grandees, and political allies who've been plotting to get the UK out of the EU for many years."

 

I disagree entirely.  It had been a contentious issue for many years amongst the electorate, made clear by the rise of ukip.

 

Political in-fighting (combined with a confident belief that a referendum would result in a remain result....) led to cameron deciding that a referendum should finally be allowed - to establish his authority over the party.  Similar to the way May called a general election for the same reasons .

 

Both failed spectacularly - but for different reasons.

[thaiguzzi]

As i said, i'm a fence sitter. I believe there was doom and gloom from the Remainers which did'nt or hasn't happened yet and blatant lies from the Leavers. What was the slogan on the side of buses with a line of immigrants? 300 million GBP saved a week, a month, or whatever, could be put into the NHS or something equally ridiculous?

Politicians - gotta hate 'em....

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

As an outsider looking in, I didn't think Brexit was good.   A unified Europe is preferable.  Sure there are problems areas either wy, ...but that will happen no matter how the Belgian waffle is crumbled.

 

The longer the divorce drags out, the more evident it becomes that it was a wrong decision. 

 

The parallels with the Trump vote (which happened almost concurrently) are obvious. If Americans could vote again, the tally would be v. lopsided in favor of whomever was Trump's opponent. I suspect the same is true of Brexit.

"A unified Europe is preferable."

 

Hard to disagree - until the electorate decide that the faults of the structure out-weigh the benefits....

 

Back on topic, this type of article (i.e. OP) trying to link the homeless to brexit - is why very few trust any media sources nowadays, finally realising that there is always an 'agenda'.....

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

As i said, i'm a fence sitter. I believe there was doom and gloom from the Remainers which did'nt or hasn't happened yet and blatant lies from the Leavers. What was the slogan on the side of buses with a line of immigrants? 300 million GBP saved a week, a month, or whatever, could be put into the NHS or something equally ridiculous?

Politicians - gotta hate 'em....

Let's not forget osborne's promised, immediate, 'punishment' budget in the event of a leave result....

 

Both sides lied/mis-represented the truth.

 

But we're drifting from the OP again.  Far better to continue this discussion on the 'blair supports remain' thread IMO .

[Samui Bodoh]

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

It doesn't have to be hard, all rules return to the status quo before the EU (Dump all EU law and agreements).

Reinstall border controls, escort all foreigners without a VISA out.

Stop all payments to foreign bodies (or let Germany deduct from the money they still owe England from WWII) if you want to be more polite.

Put the forces on alert, in case some foreign country wants to cause a problem.

 

It's only hard because vested interests are all trying to make the most money for themselves.

The globalists are all dragging their heels as much as possible.

I don't see any trade deals with the EU as important, China, South America and India will still do business with England, and probably at a better rate than the current EU trading. It's not as if a container ship cares how far it has to travel.

PLEASE DO NOT SELECTIVELY EDIT/CHERRY PICK MY POST(S). QUOTE ALL OF IT OR NONE OF IT.

 

OR, WRITE YOUR OWN MATERIAL.

 

[natway09]

Believe me, u ain' seen nothing yet

[brewsterbudgen]

If it doesn't happen, there will most likely be unprecedented acts of terror in mainland England and against the EU.
Once all pretense of democracy has been dispensed with, the fighting, killing and bombing will start.

Hopefully a General Election result that leaves parliament with a Remain majority will end this farce. Labour are slowly coming to their senses and as the Brexit disaster becomes even more obvious than it is now, a Remain majority should be achievable.

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[brewsterbudgen]

If it doesn't happen, there will most likely be unprecedented acts of terror in mainland England and against the EU.
Once all pretense of democracy has been dispensed with, the fighting, killing and bombing will start.

With Farage at the helm? Perhaps terrorism is what suits Brexiters and Britain First fascists best, so you may well be right.

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[MaeJoMTB]

11 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Perhaps terrorism is what suits Brexiters and Britain First fascists best, so you may well be right. 

I prefer to be called a potential 'Freedom Fighter' for England please.

(People's Front of England, English People's Front, etc)

The EU are welcome to keep Scotland and NI.

[gunderhill]

8 hours ago, cooked said:

maybe there is a housing shortage due to the impossibility of planning for an economy that allows hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year? 

Dunno, that;s probably racist.

Or  that some folk are  just plain idle and end  up homeless and to save and pay for a home actually  requires hard  work over a sustained period  of  time .

[brewsterbudgen]

I prefer to be called a potential 'Freedom Fighter' for England please.
(People's Front of England, Popular Front for England, etc)
The EU are welcome to keep Scotland and NI.

What about Wales?

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[Jonnapat]

Yes, they did vote for this after sucking up a pack of lies from the Brexiteers. 

Just wait to see what's round the corner. It won't be pleasant. 

[MaeJoMTB]

1 minute ago, Jonnapat said:

Yes, they did vote for this after sucking up a pack of lies from the Brexiteers. 

Just wait to see what's round the corner. It won't be pleasant. 

It already wasn't pleasant, which is why I had already left the UK.

A country where white middle class men are considered scum by everyone else.

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Hopefully a General Election result that leaves parliament with a Remain majority will end this farce. Labour are slowly coming to their senses and as the Brexit disaster becomes even more obvious than it is now, a Remain majority should be achievable.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Hard to see how this will happen as neither of the main parties are willing to entirely support the remain cause at the moment (knowing it would be electoral suicide), and even if they did, it would likely result in a resurgence of ukip.

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

What about Wales?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It is hard enough being Scottish, but everybody forgets about the poor Welsh :/

[mommysboy]

The winners simply have not been able to do the job to a reasonable standard.  They have now forfeited imo!  We can all want, but doing is another matter!

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, gunderhill said:

Or  that some folk are  just plain idle and end  up homeless and to save and pay for a home actually  requires hard  work over a sustained period  of  time .

Or maybe because of personal reasons that are, at a personal leve, beyond our knowledge; a systemic failure in our Government's mental health strategy; the failure of our government to tackle wage decline in real terms; a lack of affordable housing being built to sustain the expanding population's aspirations?

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/924875/german-companies-panicking-brexit-looms-survey

Trust me, Volkswagen may care. A bit.

 

The others don't care. Reassuringly expensive!

[SupermarineS6B]

Nobody voted for it ?   Only the highest ever turn out for a democratic vote in British voting history..... 17 million people voted OUT, and the only problem is the lefty tree hugging pratts like yourself at the Guardian can't get it through your addled brains that out is out.......... Britain is British, ruled by the British, and Johnny foreighner can do what the F____ he wants........ Bye bye and good riddance........