Legitimising a child under 7 through the courts

[Kenny202]

I recently went through the court process to legitimise my 2yo son through the courts. Myself and his mother were not married and we have separated.

I received a favourable court letter from the judge and now it has to be finalised at the Amphur were my son is registered. We both live in different areas a considerable distance from the Amphur and she can't really be bothered travelling or going out of her way to do something she sees as no benefit to herself.

My son is living with me full time by the way.

 

I was under the impression that myself and my sons mother need to be present at the Amphur to do this but I have seen others say I can lodge it by myself. She has already agreed and witnessed I am the child's natural father to apply for the court judgement. The judge has made the decision and there should really be no further need for her approval or signature etc. But this is Thailand and this is a particularly lousy Amphur office ie" go out of their way to make things difficult or more to the point avoid anything akin to work and have no clue of current rules or laws.

 

I am also registered on the birth certificate and as the father in the Tabien baan. Has anyone else completed the process at the Amphur? What was required?

 

 

[happylarry]

You need to take your childs housebook and birth certificate, your passport and the court order. It makes no difference if you go by yourself as the legal work has been done at the court. The Amphur cant refuse a court order, but as you say its Thailand.

HL

[uklawyer]

It sounds like you did the application by consent, but I am guessing that, since your child is so young, even an application by consent needs to be rubber stamped by the Court.

 

My situation was slightly different in that I made the application without consent, even though the mother didn't turn up at Court in the end.  However, when it came to registering the Court order at the Amphur, I can't see that this should make any difference.  In answer to your question, in my case, the mother was not required and did not in fact attend.

 

In terms of the rest of my experience, which may be of some help, I went with a Thai friend to the Amphur (for translation purposes).  My son was actually at school so he didn't go with us.  My Thai friend had called the Amphur beforehand to check what documents we needed, which I think is a good idea, as it is very possible different Amphurs have slightly different requirements.  From memory, in addition to the Court order, plus a signed copy, we needed a copy of his entry in the tabien baan.  We didn't have the original.  You also need your passport, but this is where we had a bit of an issue. 

 

When we went to the Amphur, they said they needed a certified and translated copy of my passport.  To get this, for a British passport holder, firstly you need to go to the British Embassy in Bangkok.  You have to make an appointment online for this very purpose.  They will make a certified copy of your passport while you wait.  From memory it costs about 1,500 Baht.  You then have to take it to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Chaeng Wattana, which is an incredibly busy place (or at least it was on the day I went).  I didn't take a Thai friend on this occasion, but I wish I had. 

 

There, firstly, you need to get the certified copy of your passport translated by a reliable service.  When you walk in to the building there are touts everywhere offering translation services.  I used one, but then later saw there was what looks like an official translation service at the top of the main escalator.  With the benefit of hindsight, I would have used that one.

 

It took perhaps an hour and a half for me to get the translated document back.  You then have to go up to the second floor with all your documents ready.  There are a number of windows and you have to queue up (it took perhaps 45 minutes) just to get a number, which they give you after giving your documents a quick once over to make sure you have everything you need.  Once you have your ticket you wait for your number to be called from one of another set of windows.  This actually didn't take long for me. 

 

At the second window, the woman spoke excellent English and was very helpful.  I gave her my documents, paid the fee and paid an extra fee so everything could be returned to me via EMS, as I don't live in Bangkok (to avoid going again, actually, I would have used the EMS service even if I did).  She gave me an envelope for me to write my own address on. 

 

A few days later, I got the letter back, which said that the translation was wrong in a couple of respects which were marked in red, so I got another translation done, correcting the mistakes and sent it back via EMS with a few Baht more to cover another EMS letter back to me. 

 

Second time around I got it back as required.  So then it was back to the Amphur with that and the other documents to get the legitimization (and sole custody) finalized.  I have to say that getting the translation of the certified copy of my passport was a right royal pain in the backside.  I understand that some Amphurs will accept just an untranslated copy of your passport, so well worth checking with your local Amphur first.

[Kenny202]

Appreciate ur detailed reply. Unfortunately this is where it all falls down. We called the amphur this morning and they said they need the mother present and the original tabien Baan. I also believe this isn't necessary but if they believe it is there's no way around it. They are most unhelpful and have been so in the past. Might just get a lawyer to handle it. I believe by law she doesn't need to be present. Another post a guy actually posted the transcript. He might be able to explain it to them

 

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[offset]

2 hours ago, uklawyer said:

It sounds like you did the application by consent, but I am guessing that, since your child is so young, even an application by consent needs to be rubber stamped by the Court.

 

My situation was slightly different in that I made the application without consent, even though the mother didn't turn up at Court in the end.  However, when it came to registering the Court order at the Amphur, I can't see that this should make any difference.  In answer to your question, in my case, the mother was not required and did not in fact attend.

 

In terms of the rest of my experience, which may be of some help, I went with a Thai friend to the Amphur (for translation purposes).  My son was actually at school so he didn't go with us.  My Thai friend had called the Amphur beforehand to check what documents we needed, which I think is a good idea, as it is very possible different Amphurs have slightly different requirements.  From memory, in addition to the Court order, plus a signed copy, we needed a copy of his entry in the tabien baan.  We didn't have the original.  You also need your passport, but this is where we had a bit of an issue. 

 

When we went to the Amphur, they said they needed a certified and translated copy of my passport.  To get this, for a British passport holder, firstly you need to go to the British Embassy in Bangkok.  You have to make an appointment online for this very purpose.  They will make a certified copy of your passport while you wait.  From memory it costs about 1,500 Baht.  You then have to take it to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Chaeng Wattana, which is an incredibly busy place (or at least it was on the day I went).  I didn't take a Thai friend on this occasion, but I wish I had. 

 

There, firstly, you need to get the certified copy of your passport translated by a reliable service.  When you walk in to the building there are touts everywhere offering translation services.  I used one, but then later saw there was what looks like an official translation service at the top of the main escalator.  With the benefit of hindsight, I would have used that one.

 

It took perhaps an hour and a half for me to get the translated document back.  You then have to go up to the second floor with all your documents ready.  There are a number of windows and you have to queue up (it took perhaps 45 minutes) just to get a number, which they give you after giving your documents a quick once over to make sure you have everything you need.  Once you have your ticket you wait for your number to be called from one of another set of windows.  This actually didn't take long for me. 

 

At the second window, the woman spoke excellent English and was very helpful.  I gave her my documents, paid the fee and paid an extra fee so everything could be returned to me via EMS, as I don't live in Bangkok (to avoid going again, actually, I would have used the EMS service even if I did).  She gave me an envelope for me to write my own address on. 

 

A few days later, I got the letter back, which said that the translation was wrong in a couple of respects which were marked in red, so I got another translation done, correcting the mistakes and sent it back via EMS with a few Baht more to cover another EMS letter back to me. 

 

Second time around I got it back as required.  So then it was back to the Amphur with that and the other documents to get the legitimization (and sole custody) finalized.  I have to say that getting the translation of the certified copy of my passport was a right royal pain in the backside.  I understand that some Amphurs will accept just an untranslated copy of your passport, so well worth checking with your local Amphur first.

When I had mine done at the amphur they accepted a translated copy of my passport

done by the local shop as long as it was stamped and signed by them

[Kenny202]

This is the problem here. All Amphurs have different ideas and attitudes...but at the end of the day it's up to them. I see blokes on here debating this stuff all the time. What is OK or accepted at one office may be completely different elsewhere. There's no right or wrong

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[MikeyIdea]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:15 AM, Kenny202 said:

Appreciate ur detailed reply. Unfortunately this is where it all falls down. We called the amphur this morning and they said they need the mother present and the original tabien Baan. I also believe this isn't necessary but if they believe it is there's no way around it. They are most unhelpful and have been so in the past. Might just get a lawyer to handle it. I believe by law she doesn't need to be present. Another post a guy actually posted the transcript. He might be able to explain it to them

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

What is required is the right steps. Never call, it doesn't work. It is simply because they are afraid of making mistakes, not because they deliberately try to put up a road block. 

Go there in person early in the morning and smile, 8:15 is a good time in Bangkok, earlier up country. Go to the information and first show the court order, then ask for the supervisor. Again show the court order and let the supervisor read it first, then talk. You gain 2 things:

1) You get a person with more knowledge from the beginning, helps a lot since the man obstacle is afraid of making mistakes

2) The first thing he / she sees and touches is a valid court order, first impression is "valid reason", not afraid of making a mistake

 

OK thinks the supervisor, now I just have to find out the exact correct procedure and that's not too difficult when I can bring the court order when I trouble the more senior section head 

 

I've often wondered why westerners think that a phone call to amphur should work :)

 

An amphur supervisor almost always have a law degree, he / she will not read a valid court order giving say sole custody to the father and require the mother to be present to implement it. Shared custody and legal guardians have equal rights. Chau baan is always required if tabien baan must be updated. A minor can't sign anyway and is not required. Translated documentation is always required if not Thai language as is Certification of translation in one way or another, unless another acceptable substitute exist (that would have required translated documentation and certification to get)

 

*** :) And now it becomes a bit fuzzy. I would hardly have to provide a translation of my passport as my blue tabien baan (no photo but name) and either pink ID card or work permit both are acceptable substitute (photo and name). Still need a signed copies of passport )and whatever was used as substitute documentation), still need signed copies of tabien baan. Would all ampurs accept Thai driving license? No way, maybe a few would. Would all amphurs accept Work Permit? Probably not but quite a few probably would. Tabien Baan? Always required but copies should be enough unless actual update is required. Birth certificate? Always required but copies should be enough.

 

With a legal valid court order and smiles... I'm sure the supervisor would be happy to advice what I need to do to get whatever I miss. No copy of birth certificate? No problem, make a police report that you have lost it and come with that and I'll issue a substitute form for you (not a new original birth certificate but original substitute form). No copy of the childs tabien baan? That's OK, I actually have enough information (from legally valid sources) so you don't need it. I used to go to the amphur often in the past and I have never met the problem so many others report. But I am sure there are exceptions. I have even heard of a legal stupidity: Thai ID card for child... Legislation is supposedly written so that only a Thai legal guardian can sign for it. Eeeeeehhhh, child can't sign, court order gave farang father sole custody but he is not Thai and can't sign, mother isn't legal guardian any longer so she can't sign. But not to despair: Amphur will accept mother to sign also if she is not legal guardian

 

Michael

[Kenny202]

I don't know about smiles Mikey. Maybe in the city but up in Baan Nok here they are simply horrible. Not only to farang either. Ive had many experiences with government officers before and always generally the same. I am always respectful and smile. I saw them send an old Thai man home 1 hour and half travel time once because they said he wasn't showing the correct respect wearing shorts and not trousers. I have found they will spend 1 hour dithering around and being evasive to avoid 10 minutes work.

 

Anyway, to recap and conclude my experience.....I went through the courts and had my son legitimised. Got the courts letter. Then was told by my then lawyer the court document had to be lodged with the Amphur where my child was registered in the Tabien Baan (Chiayaphum province) and the mother would need to be present. I had tried for some months to have the child's mother attend the Amphur with me to register the legitimacy court order and she kept promising but didn't turn up. soooooo

 

Went and got a new lawyer recommended to me by a friend. He told me he would make a few calls and get back to me. Called me back and told me I could register the document at any Amphur and the mother didn't need to be present. 

 

So off I go to my local (Big city) Amphur and as expected the woman was literally shaking her head no as I passed the paperwork over the counter saying the mother needed to be present and it needed to be done in Chaiyaphum. Normally I am very amenable and kiss their arse and all of that but it has never gotten me anywhere so I went for the throat. Insisted that I had spoken to my lawyer, he had spoken to her boss and it was no problem. It was only then she actually made the effort to read the document and grunted a few requirements one of which was three signatories. For what I said? Are they witnessing my signature or attesting they know me or what ie what will they be signing for? Blank stare ie doesn't have a clue. Anyway, took the three witnesses back the next day and then she was asking for a translated copy of my passport! I said they don't need a translated copy when I enter the country or for immigration why would you need it? Open mouthed stare. My Mrs joined in then and asked her why she didn't mention that yesterday as a requirement before we dragged 3 people down there for nothing. She agreed it wasn't required.

After a lot more frigging about it was done. Well nearly. Just before signing off she showed me an envelope. Had a bit of an idea what was coming but feigned ignorance. I looked in the envelope and looked like it was stuffed with about 5000 baht. Obviously her days takings. Not 100% sure what she was saying but sounded like she was saying she was collecting money for Tambon :-)

Slung her 100 baht and she looked like I handed her a rat haha. Anyway she signed off and gave me some papers to take away and copy. Came back to her office standing in the doorway and she didn't see me there. She was taking the money out of the envelope and stuffing the cash into her purse. The look on her face when she saw me there...and I knew she knew that I knew...was priceless :-) 

 

So for those wanting to know....yes legally you can register your court letter at any amphur and without the child's mother. Whether the Amphur or officer you deal with is aware of this or not is another matter. So I would be prepared to have your Lawyer accompany you should there be any problems. Firstly though you need to make sure your lawyer is aware and on board that the mother doesn't have to be present. My first lawyer told me she did.

 

Just read through the document from the Amphur and they have spelt my fricking name wrong hahaha. Insist on ten copies of everything in triplicate and still manage to frk it up 5555. Did exactly the same thing with my drivers license a month ago

 

 

 

[jvs]

On 12-3-2018 at 10:15 AM, Kenny202 said:

Appreciate ur detailed reply. Unfortunately this is where it all falls down. We called the amphur this morning and they said they need the mother present and the original tabien Baan. I also believe this isn't necessary but if they believe it is there's no way around it. They are most unhelpful and have been so in the past. Might just get a lawyer to handle it. I believe by law she doesn't need to be present. Another post a guy actually posted the transcript. He might be able to explain it to them

 

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For what it is worth,a friend of mine went to the same problems a few years ago regarding an adopted daughter.They received all of the neccessary ppers from the court but the Amphur kept giving him the run around.He went back to the court and paid some one from the court to accompany him to the Tetsa bahn,this time he had no problem at all.

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 9:26 PM, Kenny202 said:

I saw them ...

I saw them just change chau baan without any paperwork at all, without the old chau baan was even present once, clear breach of rules. They played and fussed with my daughter so much that she disappeared upstairs for an hour while we did the paperwork downstairs and they legitimized me as her father when she was two! at the amphur in Loei, also clear breach of rules actually but thank you for that :) Your lawyer should have known that it is absolute BS that the mother needed to be present, that's his fault that you had that problem, it's a court order for Christ sake... total idiocy.

 

I accept that they require some kind of valid identification of you, something that required a certified translation to get (work permit, yellow tabien baan, pink ID card for instance) but on the other hand... I wonder if the lawyer could have done this for you with a legal letter of attorney without you present? with ID from you that required certified translation, not sure

 

We never know what will happen, what you describe is much worse than I ever have encountered. Good idea to bring someone from the court or call and hand over the phone, a friend did that once, worked fine, don't know if it had worked without it too

 

Michael