Israeli Embassy Outreach to Educate Thai Students about Holocaust

[jak2002003]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

stop the lying.

It's so annoying.

That is crazy

clearly have a bug up their arse. 

You're obnoxiously appointing opinions

Where does that weirdness come from

won't even listen and then spout garbage? 

hmmm.

 

I thought you said I was in the company of polite people?

 

I will say again... I have nothing against Jews.  Your accusations is out of order and offensive.  

 

Please take a breath and calm down and re read what I have wrote.

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

hmmm.

 

I thought you said I was in the company of polite people?

 

I will say again... I have nothing against Jews.  Your accusations is out of order and offensive.  

 

Please take a breath and calm down and re read what I have wrote.

 

 

 

 

I read it. I already replied. You accused me of a POV that I don't have and have already stated multiple times that I don't have.

[jak2002003]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I read it. I already replied. You accused me of a POV that I don't have and have already stated multiple times that I don't have. I think our communication on this forum has reached an end point.There are only so many obnoxious disingenuous games that it's reasonable to expect people to put up with.

 

No need to reply (ever).

Please tell me where I have been obnoxious, disingenuous or played games with you?

 

Now you are even telling me never to reply to you... after you are calling me a raciest and anti-Semitic for saying that I don't think teaching about the Holocaust in Thai schools is a good idea.

 

You have insulted me and been very rude with you comments... where I have tried my best to explain and be polite to you, my view.  

 

My only view is that if the Holocaust crimes were to be taught in Thai schools as part of world history, then it is not morally right that more focus and importance is placed on the Holocaust over other evil mass human exterminations.  

[jak2002003]

 End of my discussion with 'Jingthing' as he just sent me private message telling me why he has placed me on his 'ignore' list.  Guess its a long list of people I will be joining on there.  

 

[poanoi]

On 3/28/2018 at 3:50 AM, Bastos60 said:

Genocides should never be forgotten, there is nothing wrong with the fact that people are taught about these past events, it shows that military suppremacy isn' t always a good thing.

i feel like history about timur & genghis genocides are more appropriate,

in fact, there are dozens of genocides closer to thailand than europe

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, poanoi said:

i feel like history about timur & genghis genocides are more appropriate,

in fact, there are dozens of genocides closer to thailand than europe

There is nothing wrong with nations focusing more on their geographical neighbors. That doesn't always happen. I wasn't taught much about Canadian or Mexican history in my U.S. public education and probably those should be emphasized more.

But as I've said multiple times, learning about WW2 and the holocaust at some level is really part of BASIC historical literacy for any even barely educated person in the world. So I can't see any good or honest argument for teaching NOTHING about the WW2 holocaust in Thai schools. 

It's been fairly commented before on many related threads that because Thailand was occupied in WW2 and was on the wrong side of history as far as which side WON, there may be an understandable aversion to focusing much on the overall topic. 

[Bastos60]

17 minutes ago, poanoi said:

i feel like history about timur & genghis genocides are more appropriate,

in fact, there are dozens of genocides closer to thailand than europe

 

But the Jew genocide is the best documented one that helps to educate people. 

 

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

 

But the Jew genocide is the best documented one that helps to educate people. 

 

I'm not pleased to see this as a genocide competition. Obviously Thai students should be taught about many different historical facts, including genocides, including of course the neighboring genocide in Cambodia (documented well enough I think) and even current events about what many are calling a genocide in Myanmar. Don't forget to "throw in" Rwanda for good measure.

[Bastos60]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not pleased to see this as a genocide competition. Obviously Thai students should be taught about many different historical facts, including genocides, including of course the neighboring genocide in Cambodia (documented well enough I think) and even current events about what many are calling a genocide in Myanmar. 

There is no competition, that is purely in your mind. 

Both what currently is happening in Myanmar can be best described using both events which happened in the past, Kmer Rouge and Nazi Germany. But Nazi Germany would be a better example compared to the Kmer Rouge in Cambodia, to teach people. You might have a different opinion and you are entitled to it. But it is only the jew community that want people all over the world to be made aware of the atrocities that took place in the past to prevent nations from turning a blind eye  to the current events. 

 

[Jingthing]

42 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

There is no competition, that is purely in your mind. 

Both what currently is happening in Myanmar can be best described using both events which happened in the past, Kmer Rouge and Nazi Germany. But Nazi Germany would be a better example compared to the Kmer Rouge in Cambodia, to teach people. You might have a different opinion and you are entitled to it. But it is only the jew community that want people all over the world to be made aware of the atrocities that took place in the past to prevent nations from turning a blind eye  to the current events. 

 

I'm not really sure that I fully understand your POV.

 

But that's OK.

 

Anyway, there are some very distinctive things about the WW2 holocaust such as --

 

The first time (and most extensive by far to date) modern industrialized methods were used to effect a massive genocide.

 

A well organized international movement to DENY that ever happened.

 

So yes it's a prime example of man's inhumanity to man and to push to never forget it is an appropriate response to the toxic idiocy of holocaust deniers.

 

When talking about current events, there is still a lively debate about whether what happened (and is happening) in Myanmar is actually a genocide and of course their government denies it.

 

But that's not the same thing as an international movement to deny a very well documented historical genocide. There is no such international movement to deny the Cambodian or Rwandan genocides. 

 

There are other genocides where there is a denial movement but that is generally more localized to national conflicts, such as the Armenian genocide. 

 

In any case, nobody is suggesting young Thais have a 100 hour course about the holocaust or WW2 in general. Just not NOTHING. Nothing is really not OK. 

 

 

[Bastos60]

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not really sure that I fully understand your POV.

 

I thought so, It is the reasoning behind opinions that rarely gets understood unless you know exactly what I am talking about or what the topic is about.

From you reply I can make out that you don't have the same mindset as people that are taught and read about this subject.
Did I get 100's of hours in school on this subject, hardly, it might be about 2 - 3 hours during a students entire school career.

But the distinctive differences you talk about are not very accurate.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But that's OK.

Anyway, there are some very distinctive things about the WW2 holocaust such as --

The first time (and most extensive by far to date) modern industrialized methods were used to effect a massive genocide.

No it was not the first, the ottoman empire (Turks) were the very first. Turkish up to this date still deny it ever happened.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A well organized international movement to DENY that ever happened.

If you call the middle easts a well organized international movement you might be right, but other than that there is no noteworthy entity that travels the world to deny it happened.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So yes it's a prime example of man's inhumanity to man and to push to never forget it is an appropriate response to the toxic idiocy of holocaust deniers.

The push of the jewish community is not necessarily caused by the holocaust deniers, rather with people turning a blind eye to current events. Prevention is still better.

It starts with relocating people but can end with actively exterminating them.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

When talking about current events, there is still a lively debate about whether what happened (and is happening) in Myanmar is actually a genocide and of course their government denies it.

How do you think it all happened in Nazi Germany? Jewish people do know how it all started.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But that's not the same thing as an international movement to deny a very well documented historical genocide. There is no such international movement to deny the Cambodian or Rwandan genocides. 

Ofcourse there are people denying any and every genocide. But calling a few nuts a well organized international movement is a bit too much.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

There are other genocides where there is a denial movement but that is generally more localized to national conflicts, such as the Armenian genocide. 

Seriously? You really think that is localized to a national problem in Turkey?  Ask a Turk that migrated to Asia about the Armenian genocide, they will deny having any knowledge of it or it ever happening. And we have etnic turks living in every country in Europe, and 90% of them deny the genocide and get violent when confronted with it.

 

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In any case, nobody is suggesting young Thais have a 100 hour course about the holocaust or WW2 in general. Just not NOTHING. Nothing is really not OK. 

I said it earlier, nowhere in the world do people get a 100 hour course on WW2, but Thailand was involved in WW2 having spent time with both sides of the axis.
But with all the military coups in Thailand, I think they have enough material for their history to learn.

[Jingthing]

That's a  lot of material so I'll let most of it stand because so much of is off topic and you sound so passionate about it. 

 

I don't really think there is the equivalent denial that you claim just because there is a diaspora involved. The holocaust denial movement is pervasive and is almost all about people that hate Jews and that means a huge variety of nationalities. But believe what you want that there is an equivalence. Too arcane to argue about here. 

 

Since you made the claim, I must admit ignorance that the Turk's did something like the Nazis as far as using modern industrialized killing methods (gas chambers) for mass genocide. Post a link please. I'm open to admit gaps in my education for sure. 

 

I agree Thailand should teach more about WW2 in general including of course the holocaust which was a part of it. I was just being realistic to expect very much. They have their obvious reasons for not teaching much. 

[jak2002003]

14 hours ago, Bastos60 said:

 

I thought so, It is the reasoning behind opinions that rarely gets understood unless you know exactly what I am talking about or what the topic is about.

From you reply I can make out that you don't have the same mindset as people that are taught and read about this subject.
Did I get 100's of hours in school on this subject, hardly, it might be about 2 - 3 hours during a students entire school career.

But the distinctive differences you talk about are not very accurate.

 

No it was not the first, the ottoman empire (Turks) were the very first. Turkish up to this date still deny it ever happened.

 

If you call the middle easts a well organized international movement you might be right, but other than that there is no noteworthy entity that travels the world to deny it happened.

 

The push of the jewish community is not necessarily caused by the holocaust deniers, rather with people turning a blind eye to current events. Prevention is still better.

It starts with relocating people but can end with actively exterminating them.

 

How do you think it all happened in Nazi Germany? Jewish people do know how it all started.

 

Ofcourse there are people denying any and every genocide. But calling a few nuts a well organized international movement is a bit too much.

 

Seriously? You really think that is localized to a national problem in Turkey?  Ask a Turk that migrated to Asia about the Armenian genocide, they will deny having any knowledge of it or it ever happening. And we have etnic turks living in every country in Europe, and 90% of them deny the genocide and get violent when confronted with it.

 

I said it earlier, nowhere in the world do people get a 100 hour course on WW2, but Thailand was involved in WW2 having spent time with both sides of the axis.
But with all the military coups in Thailand, I think they have enough material for their history to learn.

Very educated and thought through response.

 

Sadly, I fear you will be wasting you time with this poster and are likely to end up with a private message from him and be put on his ignore list like I was.

 

 

[petermach]

Don't forget to teach about what is doing Israel to Palestinian people ,which should be considered as crime against humanity . The Israeli government must stop its own abuse and the occupying power, must be held accountable with  perpetrators  brought to justice. Clean in front of your door first and be exemplary before to teach something about genocide.

 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, petermach said:

Don't forget to teach about what is doing Israel to Palestinian people ,which should be considered as crime against humanity . The Israeli government must stop its own abuse and the occupying power, must be held accountable with  perpetrators  brought to justice. Clean in front of your door first and be exemplary before to teach something about genocide.

Although that subject would be under "Current World affairs" and that isnt the topic here

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, petermach said:

Don't forget to teach about what is doing Israel to Palestinian people ,which should be considered as crime against humanity . The Israeli government must stop its own abuse and the occupying power, must be held accountable with  perpetrators  brought to justice. Clean in front of your door first and be exemplary before to teach something about genocide.

 

Good idea to teach the students the history of that conflict with an explanation of the different narratives from both sides.

That said, I consider your post (and similar) to be disingenuous. 

Of course students should be taught the history of WW2 and the holocaust. There is no good argument against that except explicit or closeted holocaust denial. 

As far as expecting the Israeli embassy to be promoting teaching the Palestinian narrative of the conflict there, that's not serious. They would never do that and it's not reasonable to expect them to ever do that. You know that too. Also to be clear their mission in the O.P. does not involve teaching their narrative about the conflict either.

I'm sure there are academics in Thailand capable of developing a program that explains both narratives objectively. 

Cheers.

[chippendale]

Holocaust fatigue Yawn.

 

More relevant to prioritise education about the Khmer Rouge next door : A Buddhist culture, blinded by communist envy and hatred, cheered on by their Chinese and American backers, terrorised and butchered millions, most of the culprits still walk happily free.

 

Best not to let this kind of thing happen in Thailand. Education about the Khmer Rouge atrocities will relieve Thais of their ignorance and smugness. "Khmer what?!? Couldn't happen here."

[Jingthing]

46 minutes ago, chippendale said:

Holocaust fatigue Yawn.

 

More relevant to prioritise education about the Khmer Rouge next door : A Buddhist culture, blinded by communist envy and hatred, cheered on by their Chinese and American backers, terrorised and butchered millions, most of the culprits still walk happily free.

 

Best not to let this kind of thing happen in Thailand. Education about the Khmer Rouge atrocities will relieve Thais of their ignorance and smugness. "Khmer what?!? Couldn't happen here."

Why not both?

Where does this really weird resistance to teaching Thais about the holocaust come from? 

Maybe "holocaust fatigue" for you but if it's not taught at all in Thai schools, your comment does not apply. 

[chippendale]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Why not both?

Where does this really weird resistance to teaching Thais about the holocaust come from? 

Maybe "holocaust fatigue" for you but if it's not taught at all in Thai schools, your comment does not apply. 

Teaching about the only Jewish holocaust would be too narrow, though. Broaden it to include other genocides/holocausts, especially more recent massacres such as Cambodia, Rwanda, East Timor, Darfur, the Rohingyas, the Yazidis at the hands of ISIS, in order to show that humanity and the United Nations have learned nothing from history and the victims (Jews) can turn to cold perpetrators in an instant (Israel's savage treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories).

 

And let's not forget to include North Korea and China's Great Leap Forward.

[midas]

I wonder what kind of opinion Chiang Mai students will form regarding the victims of this outreach program if there is serious bloodshed today along the Gaza border which they are bound to see in social media and on the TV?

Quote

The six-week-long protest calls for the right of return of Palestinian refugees to their homes in what is now considered Israel.

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43593594

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, midas said:

I wonder what kind of opinion Chiang Mai students will form regarding the victims of this outreach program if there is serious bloodshed today along the Gaza border which they are bound to see in social media and on the TV?

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43593594

Most likely think that the Palestinians are trying to do the same thing that the Nazis did , after all, they do both have/had the same goals , to rid their Countries of Jews

[midas]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Most likely think that the Palestinians are trying to do the same thing that the Nazis did , after all, they do both have/had the same goals , to rid their Countries of Jews

huh ?

 

Quote

The incident comes just hours before a major demonstration commemorating Land Day, which marks the day - March 30, 1976 - when six Palestinian citizens of Israel were killed by Israeli forces during protests over Israeli land confiscations.

 

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, midas said:

huh ?

 

 

If we go off topic, the mods will delete everything .

Its not as thought the issue hasnt been discussed before

Its been discussed so many times , I know how the discussion would proceed .

After about 15 pages, it would get down to who was on the land first and the 2500 year old Jewish temple of David will get a mention .

   So, lets stick top the topic , there is usually a thread running on TV about Israels right to exist 

[Jingthing]

Better that the German embassy did the outreach in Thailand. Then we wouldn't see all this heckling type conflation of teaching about a very important historical situation that all educated people should know something about, and current events. 

 

I've heard stories from Germans before of getting into cabs in Thailand and similarly low education on WW2 countries and when they tell the driver they're German, get responses like Hitler, Great Man! Extremely groan worthy. Education can prevent!

[midas]

4 hours ago, sanemax said:

If we go off topic, the mods will delete everything .

Its not as thought the issue hasnt been discussed before

Its been discussed so many times , I know how the discussion would proceed .

After about 15 pages, it would get down to who was on the land first and the 2500 year old Jewish temple of David will get a mention .

   So, lets stick top the topic , there is usually a thread running on TV about Israels right to exist 

in other words  stick to  the comments of Golda Meir   to Shulamit Aloni, "After the Holocaust, Jews are allowed to do anything."

[jimster]

8 hours ago, chippendale said:

Holocaust fatigue Yawn.

 

More relevant to prioritise education about the Khmer Rouge next door : A Buddhist culture, blinded by communist envy and hatred, cheered on by their Chinese and American backers, terrorised and butchered millions, most of the culprits still walk happily free.

 

Best not to let this kind of thing happen in Thailand. Education about the Khmer Rouge atrocities will relieve Thais of their ignorance and smugness. "Khmer what?!? Couldn't happen here."

Good point. The teaching of what happened to their Asian neighbors is much more likely to resonate than teaching the history of an event that happened in Europe to European people on the other side of the world. People are tribal by nature so of course a Thai (who is Asian) will be more likely to share kinship with a Cambodian (who is also Asian) than someone from Europe.

 

I know from personal experience that Chinese students taught about European WW2 history (though not in any great detail) have no particular reaction towards it. For them what the Japanese did will always be at the forefront of their minds.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, midas said:

in other words  stick to  the comments of Golda Meir   to Shulamit Aloni, "After the Holocaust, Jews are allowed to do anything."

To understand how she would feel that way, you'd have to know about the history of the holocaust. I can't see any good reason to not teach the history of the holocaust and so far, nobody here has provided one. 

 

She said a lot of interesting things, such as --

 

“One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present”

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

Good point. The teaching of what happened to their Asian neighbors is much more likely to resonate than teaching the history of an event that happened in Europe to European people on the other side of the world. People are tribal by nature so of course a Thai (who is Asian) will be more likely to share kinship with a Cambodian (who is also Asian) than someone from Europe.
 
I know from personal experience that Chinese students taught about European WW2 history (though not in any great detail) have no particular reaction towards it. For them what the Japanese did will always be at the forefront of their minds.

There are many things of History Thai students should be aware of but read the original article. They don’t know much about more recent more nearby atrocities either.

A particular perennial issue in Thailand of people parading around in Nazi uniforms or selling Nazi swastika paraphernalia in markets or Hitler chicken and the young people having” absolutely no idea why anyone might be offended” Is avoidable embarrassment. Good on the Israeli outreach group to try to educate them.

[tubby johnson]

History has taught the Jews nothing:

In 1977, Israel decided to bring over 56,000 Jews from Ethiopia, and then treated them like subhumans. They were forced into ghettos and isolated from mainstream Israeli life. Various surveys have found that Ethiopian Jews are dead last on the list of desirable employees -- 75 percent of non-immigrant Israelis won't allow their children to marry one, and fewer than 50 percent support mixed classrooms. Oh, and in 2016, Israel's top police official said that it's natural for police to be more suspicious of Ethiopian Jews, as their "community is statistically involved in crime more than others."

Sound familiar?

 

In 1996, it was discovered that all the blood Ethiopian Jews donated to Magen David Adom (Israel's equivalent of the Red Cross) was quietly destroyed, for fear of HIV infection. Blood donation has been a hot-button issue for Ethiopian Jews ever since. They were only granted permission to donate blood without restrictions in 2017.

 

It gets worse. A 2012 documentary revealed that Ethiopian Jewish women were forced to take contraceptives if they wanted to keep their healthcare. Some didn't even know what they were being given. As a result, Ethiopian immigrants' birth rate fell by half in one decade. You'd think that, as a people, Israelis would be a little less comfortable with the idea of eugenics.

 

..... Include that in your history curriculum.

[Jingthing]

32 minutes ago, tubby johnson said:

 

 

..... Include that in your history curriculum.

No problem if doing a comprehensive course about the state of Israel. There are many both good and bad things in that history as pretty much all countries. You're focused only on the negative of course, and predictably, conflate the state of Israel with all Jews in general. A great example actually of how criticism of Israel quite often bleeds into hate rhetoric, which agree or not, is how I would characterize your obnoxious phrase -- 

History has taught the Jews nothing

 

But in the context of this thread, you didn't even try to suggest that Thai students shouldn't be taught about the holocaust, so good on you for that.