Being a digital nomad / working online is legal in Thailand

[JLCrab]

All the above rather moot point: It presumes that you have a tourist visa.

 

Among the Thai Ministry Information Tech's objectives are:

"To promote and support digital society development in order to elevate the people’s knowledge and capabilities in applying and creating value added with digital technology."

 

Someone working online alone at a shared work space does nothing to promote that objective which is why, as of now, that circumstance is in limbo and is done mainly on a succession of tourist visas.

 

BTW to say that a power-that-be has deemed something to be legal and the same power-that-be saying "We don't give a sh*t" is not the same thing.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

Well that's the rub, I guess -- as long as MoFA embassies and consulates will issue an endless stream of back-to-back tourist visas for persons using tourist visas to live long-term in Thailand, the Immigration and Labour folks are saying:

 

Then why would you expect us to be concerned about what they might do once they get here?

It is not just the embassies and consulates -- it is government policy and the immigration department.  The embassies (things might have changed in the last few years) would not necessarily have a complete history of your visas other than what is in your passport, but if the immigration department decided - they could make an overall policy which says you can only be a tourist for up to 6 months in a calendar year.  Regardless of you getting a visa, the immigration department would just turn you away.  Some countries have hard limit, some have soft, and many have none - and rely on screening (i.e. if you are well off they know you are not entering for work - so they let you in; if however, they think you are entering for work (i.e. taking jobs away from locals) - each successive visit gets more and more detailed screening).  It is all about protecting the local labour market (and the country).  

 

There are many vested business interests to not restricting the use of tourist visas.  An example would be the US that has a hard limit (Canada did not), and they moved to further restrict that to 3 months out of the year as the standard.  Several states including Florida (who at the time had a Governor named Bush) were none too happy about that and protested loudly since many Canadians will enter on tourism based waivers for 6 months of the year (snow birds - not a retirement visa just a visa waiver).  The impact of restricting it to 3 months was going to have a severe impact on the local Florida economy.  

 

Immigration is there to protect the country -- including its labour market - not to damage the economy for some predetermined notion of what a tourist is.

[JLCrab]

Could -- would -- should -- had oughta -- maybe -- what others do -- so what? What about today?

[bkkcanuck8]

46 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

BTW to say that a power-that-be has deemed something to be legal and the same power-that-be saying "We don't give a sh*t" is not the same thing.

1

It is practically the same thing (and it is not that they don't give a sh$t - it is more than likely they don't see the benefit of strictly enforcing it to the fullest extent they could).   There is also no benefit in changing the laws since doing so might have the unwanted side-effect of creating loop-holes - and they want the freedom to enforce it as they see fit.  

 

There are many many laws on the books in my home country, and in many western countries that are not enforced.  Eventually, these laws become obsolete due to non-enforcement and become unenforceable by legal doctrine.  

 

Now in the case of Thailand - they do enforce the laws for employment in Thailand, but they have a standard of enforcement for those laws - that some on here find offensive for their own personal reasons.  Rarely are laws enforced in a black and white manner as they are written.

[JLCrab]

Exactly. AS I have said, as long as there is the possibility of tourist visas im perpetuum, Labour and Immigration are not going to do anything. This brings up the question as to why there has been no Visa/Extension option that is more accommodating for the long-term digital nomad type?

 

 

[Bangkok Barry]

18 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

This brings up the question as to why there has been no Visa/Extension option that is more accommodating for the long-term digital nomad type?

 

 

It might take Thailand a while to catch up and realise there are such people. It seems to have not happened yet, despite the internet having been around for a few decades.

[JLCrab]

BS -- they know. It's just that their priorities now are bringing in high-tech farang who will engage in technology transfer and jobs for young Thai computer science graduates and not to accommodate the lone wolf digital nomad.

 

http://thaiembdc.org/2017/08/28/thailand-approves-four-year-visas-for-experts-and-investors/

[Mattd]

14 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

Very naive post.

 

Firstly, they are directed to your lawyer.

 

As nothing illegal has taken place, you will be released with (or possibly without) a smile.

 

 

If you're some naive guy that just arrived and doesn't have a lawyer, they might try anything on, to do with anything, crossing the road or not flushing the toilet properly, perhaps.

Then all I can say is good luck if the situation occurs, after 30 years of being in Thailand, then the one thing I have learnt is that you will not beat the system, if an official takes a disliking to you, you are history, your lawyer wouldn't help, seen it dozens of times, never seen anyone win unless they have some huge backing.

I did say carry on doing what you do, just don't rock the boat.

[Happy Grumpy]

12 hours ago, jackdd said:

Probably the people are so smart and only bring their savings from last year or the years before to Thailand, and this is not taxable in Thailand.

We're talking about income from remote employment, trading on the Thai stock exchange, and renting Thai property. none of which come under the Thai Worker's Act. no WP needed, but get a Thai Tax Number (TIN) and pay your Thai on your income. No WP needed to pay your Thai income tax as only some types of employment require it. 

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Well that's the rub, I guess -- as long as MoFA embassies and consulates will issue an endless stream of back-to-back tourist visas for persons using tourist visas to live long-term in Thailand, the Immigration and Labour folks are saying:

 

Then why would you expect us to be concerned about what they might do once they get here?

Especially if what they are doing is regarded by most as wholesome work and of no concern of Thailand.

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Could -- would -- should -- had oughta -- maybe -- what others do -- so what? What about today?

You act as if something is wrong! 

 

What exactly is your complaint?  No laws being broken.

[JLCrab]

From a few pages before:

 

• Working remotely while in Thailand isn't legally considered as working/employment in Thailand. Thankfully the MoL and DoI legal department actually know the laws.

 

I don't think that is an accurate statement.

[cyberfarang]

14 hours ago, balo said:

I am one of the few members here that admitted several times I am a digital nomad . And I have been since 2011. 

 

When I first arrived I came on tourist visas and travelled back to my home country when needed. Now I am on retirement visa , since I am over 50 .    

 

I still do some online work to my home country , from my laptop , at home. Nothing fancy , the income I earn are paid into my Norwegian bank account. I pay taxes in Norway , not Thailand. 

 

This should not be so hard to understand , but for some ignorant posters here I always have to defend myself.  You know who you are. 

 

I contribute to the Thai economy by living here most of the year , with a few trips to Europe in between . 

 

As a digital nomad you decide yourself where you want to live , even if your business is in your home country .  

 

Everyone under the age of 40 understands that , and some older folks like me , the digital world we were born into .  

 

There's nothing Thailand can do about that , except cut the internet line if they want to get rid of us. Then we will choose another country . 

 

And I suggest you look up how many co-working spaces there are in Bangkok .  On my last count over 100 .  All legal . All full of foreigners doing remote work. 

 

Bangkok co-working space

 

 

Totally and completely wrong.

 

Yet we have another one who boasts about how they boosting the Thai economy by living here. If you are on a retirement visa that means you are resident in Thailand and if working while based in Thailand, your physical self not your company , online or otherwise you require permission unless working online while visiting as a tourist, which is allowed.

 

For the moment long term stayer digital nomads are tolerated, but eventually the police will crack down on this. I`d keep a low profile if I were you.

 

 

[Happy Grumpy]

15 hours ago, balo said:

And I suggest you look up how many co-working spaces there are in Bangkok .  On my last count over 100 .  All legal . All full of foreigners doing remote work. 

 

Bangkok co-working space

Yup.

 

All doing remote work while on Tourist Visas, Ed visas, Non-O visas etc that are for their purpose for being in Thailand. And while here for that purpose you can legally do your remote work online at hundreds, if not thousands of these Co-Working Spaces all around Thailand. No WP required for those remotely employed doing their remote work while here. 

[ericthai]

On 5/15/2018 at 5:07 AM, FritsSikkink said:

Show me the part in the labor law which states that

here is a link 

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf

 

according to Ministry of labor the definition of work is:

"Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;

 

[jackdd]

52 minutes ago, ericthai said:

here is a link 

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf

 

according to Ministry of labor the definition of work is:

"Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;

 

"Work" means [...] work

Nice definition, welcome to Thailand

Can anybody find the Thai original? Somehow i only find it in english

 

Edit: Found it in Thai

http://app-thca.krisdika.go.th/Naturesig/CheckSig?whichLaw=law2&folderName=%a149&lawPath=%a149-20-2551-a0001

“ทำงาน” หมายความว่า การทำงานโดยใช้กำลังกายหรือความรู้ด้วยประสงค์ค่าจ้างหรือประโยชน์อื่นใดหรือไม่ก็ตาม

The same senseless definition, work means work

[balo]

7 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

If you are on a retirement visa that means you are resident in Thailand

Wrong , It just means I can stay up to 1 year in Thailand , when I do trips to my home country , I just apply for a re-entry .

I have no problems with calling myself a digital nomad , mo matter what visa I applied for. 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, balo said:

Wrong , It just means I can stay up to 1 year in Thailand , when I do trips to my home country , I just apply for a re-entry .

I have no problems with calling myself a digital nomad , mo matter what visa I applied for. 

 

Many people have the misconception that retirement visas give you residency - pretty much all the visas are all temporary visas - with a set time before expiry.  I believe like citizenship -- residency is only granted to 100 people per nationality maximum per year.

[Happy Grumpy]

9 hours ago, ericthai said:

exerting energy

Walking? 

[mommysboy]

21 hours ago, jackdd said:

"Work" means [...] work

Nice definition, welcome to Thailand

Can anybody find the Thai original? Somehow i only find it in english

 

Edit: Found it in Thai

http://app-thca.krisdika.go.th/Naturesig/CheckSig?whichLaw=law2&folderName=%a149&lawPath=%a149-20-2551-a0001

“ทำงาน” หมายความว่า การทำงานโดยใช้กำลังกายหรือความรู้ด้วยประสงค์ค่าจ้างหรือประโยชน์อื่นใดหรือไม่ก็ตาม

The same senseless definition, work means work

It's a very broad definition, and in practice it is interpreted quite differently.  It is often touted by people as an absolute, but most certainly it is not. Rather, it is a starting point to determine whether something might be deemed worthy of further attention.  Thereafter, there is usually a framework, in which various factors are taken in to consideration.  

 

Currently, in the schemata most typically associated with digital nomads, no work permit is required, and it is disregarded as working in Thailand.  It follows then that no breach of visa also takes place.

[StreetCowboy]

17 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Many people have the misconception that retirement visas give you residency - pretty much all the visas are all temporary visas - with a set time before expiry.  I believe like citizenship -- residency is only granted to 100 people per nationality maximum per year.

When I paid tax on my earnings from my employment under a work permit, I was deemed resident.  Residency is where you live, and citizenship has little bearing on that.  Residency is also not dependent on your visa; you may be legally or illegally resident, working legally or illegally.  The tax office don't care, as far as I know.  

 

SC

[rwdrwdrwd]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:25 PM, FritsSikkink said:

They probably scrape a bit of money together with their online "businesses" otherwise they would be able to setup a proper business, use a proper visa and pay tax. 

Hahaha the envy is palpable. I'm surprised you haven't exploded from the pent up anger over them over the last 5 years or so :D literally every topic relating to "digital nomads" you're sticking your oar in repeating the same tired opinion that *you* don't think they operate legally.

And yeaaaaah, none of them have two cents to rub together. They are all *so* poor. Whatever helps you deal with it fella, whatever helps.

[balo]

2 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

When I paid tax on my earnings from my employment under a work permit, I was deemed resident.  Residency is where you live, and citizenship has little bearing on that. 

I can understand that ,  but you had a work permit and worked for a Thai /International employer in Thailand.

Very different from a digital nomad where all the income and taxes are based outside of Thailand. 

 

[ericthai]

17 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Walking? 

Who knows? TIT  

 

we all know each office/ person interpret the rules differently. All depends on how bad they want to get you! 

[bkkcanuck8]

3 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

When I paid tax on my earnings from my employment under a work permit, I was deemed resident.  Residency is where you live, and citizenship has little bearing on that.  Residency is also not dependent on your visa; you may be legally or illegally resident, working legally or illegally.  The tax office don't care, as far as I know.  

 

SC

Tax residency is something completely different.  For immigration purposes residency is known as a "Permanent Resident" (which gives you legal rights beyond what a temporary visa gives you).  A tourist visa gives you the right to reside for 2 to 3 months, a retirement gives you that for a year, but they are all temporary.  

 

Usually, the place you earn income (personal tax) from has first dibs on taxing you.  In this case, your income is earned in Thailand - so they have first dibs on it... if you are an American that must also file US taxes as long as you are a citizen, they then typically would give you a deduction on income tax paid to Thailand first -- to avoid double taxation.

 

Luckily, when I was a citizen of one country, worked (domiciled) in a second and earned partially income in a third... the company I worked for ... did my taxes for me 

 

Personally, I would not mind paying my taxes locally - I am pretty sure they would be lower than they are now.

[ericthai]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Currently, in the schemata most typically associated with digital nomads, no work permit is required, and it is disregarded as working in Thailand.  It follows then that no breach of visa also takes place.

It might be tolerated at this time, but you never know when that could change.  When I first moved to Thailand you could give your passport to a visa company and they would get it stamped in and out. Then immigration cracked down on that, same as they started to crack down on visa exempt. If i were a DM i would have a back up plan and keep a low profile.

 

[Happy Grumpy]

7 hours ago, ericthai said:

Who knows?

 

The MoL and DoI legal department. 

[Happy Grumpy]

Tax.

 

You can be here on a Tourist Visa, no WP, and go to the Thai Revenue Department and get a Thai tax number (TIN) and pay tax on your Thai income.

 

There is no problem with that.

 

No WP or Non-Imm visa required, as unlike some clueless TV members, they know the law and know that not every alien working and/or earning here comes under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

Remote workers, stock traders, land lords, etc.

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

The MoL and DoI legal department. 

Based upon Ministerial Regulation and/or pro forma legal opinion from either or both the legal departments at MoL and Immigration Bureau?

[mommysboy]

14 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

When I paid tax on my earnings from my employment under a work permit, I was deemed resident.  Residency is where you live, and citizenship has little bearing on that.  Residency is also not dependent on your visa; you may be legally or illegally resident, working legally or illegally.  The tax office don't care, as far as I know.  

 

SC

Deemed resident for tax purposes maybe!  But the point is you had no rights and were on a temporary visa.