Being a digital nomad / working online is legal in Thailand

[mommysboy]

10 hours ago, ericthai said:

It might be tolerated at this time, but you never know when that could change.  When I first moved to Thailand you could give your passport to a visa company and they would get it stamped in and out. Then immigration cracked down on that, same as they started to crack down on visa exempt. If i were a DM i would have a back up plan and keep a low profile.

 

 

Visa running as described was not never legal, or even allowed. The situation with online working is different, because at base we are not talking about something which is inherently illegal.

 

You seem to equate being a digital nomad with being illegal!

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Visa running as described was not never legal, or even allowed. The situation with online working is different, because at base we are not talking about something which is inherently illegal.

 

You seem to equate being a digital nomad with being illegal!

 

 

A visa run is a generic term for leaving a country to apply for a new visa.  It could be another of the same type or a change of status to a new visa type.  Most countries require you to apply for visas outside their national boundaries at embassies or consulates and will tell you that you cannot change them at the immigration office - you must leave the country and start a new process for the new visa.   So visa run is a completely normal and legal process.   A country may implement restrictions on visas -- like the US that has hard limits to specific visas -- but that is usually an implementation detail of immigration policy.  

 

I use to run into many people in Montreal during the International Jazz festival time that was on visa runs - it was a good time to synchronize your need to leave the US and apply for a new visa -- at the insistence of US immigration.

 

It is up to the immigration department to implement policies as they see fit, and it is always potentially possible that policies may change.  If that is the case there is always Vietnam where Ho Chi Minh and Da Nang are very popular "digital nomad" destinations - in fact, people could go back to being more nomadic 

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

A visa run is a generic term for leaving a country to apply for a new visa.  It could be another of the same type or a change of status to a new visa type.  Most countries require you to apply for visas outside their national boundaries at embassies or consulates and will tell you that you cannot change them at the immigration office - you must leave the country and start a new process for the new visa.   So visa run is a completely normal and legal process.   A country may implement restrictions on visas -- like the US that has hard limits to specific visas -- but that is usually an implementation detail of immigration policy.  

 

I use to run into many people in Montreal during the International Jazz festival time that was on visa runs - it was a good time to synchronize your need to leave the US and apply for a new visa -- at the insistence of US immigration.

 

It is up to the immigration department to implement policies as they see fit, and it is always potentially possible that policies may change.  If that is the case there is always Vietnam where Ho Chi Minh and Da Nang are very popular "digital nomad" destinations - in fact, people could go back to being more nomadic 

I meant the practice of staying in the country, and getting someone to take it out of the country, or worse still using false stamps.  

 

Yes, visa running in the generic sense is perfectly legal.

[bkkcanuck8]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I meant the practice of staying in the country, and getting someone to take it out of the country, or worse still using false stamps.  

 

Yes, visa running in the generic sense is perfectly legal.

That is not a visa run.... that is fraud.

[JLCrab]

I think K. EricThai maybe used a rather bad example. All he was maybe saying was that things years back were a bit more loose.

 

I knew guys in Khon Kaen who for years made a trip to Nong Khai and got 30-day visa exempt entries -- and I mean years' worth. When I asked didn't that every 30 days get to be expensive they said: Nah they could buy enough liquor and cigarettes (in those days) to bring into Thailand and sell so that the run was made at a profit.

 

And weren't things a bit easier when there was readily available a 6 month multiple entry tourist visa?

[bkkcanuck8]

10 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I think K. EricThai maybe used a rather bad example. All he was maybe saying was that things years back were a bit more loose.

 

I knew guys in Khon Kaen who for years made a trip to Nong Khai and got 30-day visa exempt entries -- and I mean years' worth. When I asked didn't that every 30 days get to be expensive they said: Nah they could buy enough liquor and cigarettes (in those days) to bring into Thailand and sell so that the run was made at a profit.

 

And weren't things a bit easier when there was readily available a 6 month multiple entry tourist visa?

The example was good enough -- even though it mixed fraud and non-fraudulent actions.  The truth though is that as a temporary visa holder (which almost all on here are) -- you have no permanent rights and should never consider yourself settled to the point of not having a backup plan.  Anything to do with temporary status can change with the political winds of the day.  Any of the visas they can raise the bar for or cap without grandfathering as they see fit.  

 

In addition, Thailand may seem stable now -- but without the adherence to the rule of law and the courts treating different (citizens) groups differently when applying the same law (depending on whether you are the "right people" or the "wrong people") the foundations are built on a shaky foundation that given the wrong spark could destabilize to the point of internal strife - and destabilize into a dangerous situation fairly quickly.  They have a cork on the situation right now, but corks tend to be a short-term solution (how short-term and whether the situation will be stable for our lifetimes -- who knows).  As such, it is always a good idea to have a backup plan should things change.

[JLCrab]

 

[mommysboy]

14 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

That is not a visa run.... that is fraud.

That is why I said as much.  It looks like you might benefit from a re-read.  Poster wrote:When I first moved to Thailand you could give your passport to a visa company and they would get it stamped in and out. 

[bkkcanuck8]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

That is why I said as much.  It looks like you might benefit from a re-read.  Poster wrote:When I first moved to Thailand you could give your passport to a visa company and they would get it stamped in and out. 

You could get away with it, but then you are not only breaking Thai criminal law -- you are violating your own countries laws (in all likelihood).  Passports (for countries that I am aware of) are not your property, they are at all times the property of the government of your country.  They are travel documents that are issued for your use in confirming your identity.  You as an individual are responsible for that passport.  If you place fraudulent stamps or allow the passport to "travel" without you for the purposes of misrepresenting where you are (in what country) - you are violating the laws of all countries you do that with and the country who issued that passport.  

[ericthai]

On 5/18/2018 at 2:49 AM, mommysboy said:

 

Visa running as described was not never legal, or even allowed. The situation with online working is different, because at base we are not talking about something which is inherently illegal.

 

You seem to equate being a digital nomad with being illegal!

 

 

Sorry your wrong, it was allowed for many years. Back when I first came to Thailand in the 90's you could give your passport to a visa agency they would run the passport to the boarder get it stamped in and out and you stayed home.  This was not legal but it was allowed at the time.  It became an issue when some visa companies decided to make their owns stamps.  I know several guys that used to do this.  Same as visa exempt it's not illegal but immigration keeps changing the rules try to stop it.

 

Again it all comes down to the interpretation of the law. If you get someone at immigration or labor department upset they can do what they want! 

 

I myself really dont care, just trying to help you guys that just because it's being tolerated dont mean it's ok. I've known guys that thought the same way when they use visa exempts for years to live in Thailand. This is Thailand and things are never black and white! 

[Happy Grumpy]

Maybe the Ministry of Labor could make a comedy TV show about these farangs that think they know more their legal departments. 

 

 

 

 

Wearing sock n sandals is more illegal than working remotely while happening to be here on a Tourist Visa. 

[JLCrab]

Maybe they could make a comedy about the guy who keeps talking about the "Labour Ministry Legal Departments".

 

It seems there is no entity at the Labour Ministry that would correspond to the term "Legal Department". However amongst the various offices in addition to the Minister's Office there is the Office of the Permanent Secretary whose responsibilities include:

 

2) The Office of the Permanent Secretary of Labour has its functions in relation to the development of strategies, the translation of Ministerial policies into action plans, the allocation of resources and the administration of routine Ministerial functions with a view to meet the goals and achieve results effectively. It has the following powers and duties.
 
    1. to study, analyze and prepare information in support of formulating policies, setting goals  and specifying results.
    2. to develop Ministerial administrative strategies.
    3. to translate policies into guidelines and action plans.   *

 

So, if contacted, and the Office of the Permanent Secretary was asked to provide the opinion that it is just peachy-keen for someone to remain in the Kingdom as digital nomad on one or a succession of tourist visas, as has been stated (repeatedly) on here, with some pro forma statement or Ministerial Regulation document emanating from their Office, the comedy might be when they say:

 

Oh -- Do we have one?

 

* http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/molduties

[Bangkok Barry]

4 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Maybe the Ministry of Labor could make a comedy TV show about these farangs that think they know more their legal departments. 

 

 

 

 

Wearing sock n sandals is more illegal than working remotely while happening to be here on a Tourist Visa. 

 

I and maybe others are getting very tired of your holier than thou attitude. But you might like to reveal why you are such an expert and consider yourself more knowledgeable than all those on here that you take every opportunity to mock.

[mommysboy]

On 19/05/2018 at 9:38 PM, bkkcanuck8 said:

You could get away with it, but then you are not only breaking Thai criminal law -- you are violating your own countries laws (in all likelihood).  Passports (for countries that I am aware of) are not your property, they are at all times the property of the government of your country.  They are travel documents that are issued for your use in confirming your identity.  You as an individual are responsible for that passport.  If you place fraudulent stamps or allow the passport to "travel" without you for the purposes of misrepresenting where you are (in what country) - you are violating the laws of all countries you do that with and the country who issued that passport.  

Well, yes of course it's absolutely illegal, as it's the person that must leave not just his passport.  But the point I was making is that working online is not illegal, and I didn't understand why the poster lumped them together.

[mommysboy]

On 19/05/2018 at 10:49 PM, ericthai said:

Sorry your wrong, it was allowed for many years. Back when I first came to Thailand in the 90's you could give your passport to a visa agency they would run the passport to the boarder get it stamped in and out and you stayed home.  This was not legal but it was allowed at the time.  It became an issue when some visa companies decided to make their owns stamps.  I know several guys that used to do this.  Same as visa exempt it's not illegal but immigration keeps changing the rules try to stop it.

 

Again it all comes down to the interpretation of the law. If you get someone at immigration or labor department upset they can do what they want! 

 

I myself really dont care, just trying to help you guys that just because it's being tolerated dont mean it's ok. I've known guys that thought the same way when they use visa exempts for years to live in Thailand. This is Thailand and things are never black and white! 

 

Ok. I see your point now, but I don't think we can ever say it was allowed.  

 

But, I don't think we can put the issue of online working in the same category.

 

And, yes, ultimately they seem to be able to interpret the law any which way they want.

 

 

[JLCrab]

I have said above that Immigration and Labour will take a benign approach toward any online working activities as long as Embassies/Consulates ex-Thailand are so generous with handing out Tourist visas.

 

But when I read here on TVF -- as maybe they do as well -- queries as to what should I do when some Embassy/Consulate gives me a red stamp and, if I get a new passport, to what extent can any Thai authority link my new passport to my old one, I wonder how one can claim that such activities are as pristine as often suggested on here.

 

[mommysboy]

8 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I have said above that Immigration and Labour will take a benign approach toward any online working activities as long as Embassies/Consulates ex-Thailand are so generous with handing out Tourist visas.

 

But when I read here on TVF -- as maybe they do as well -- queries as to what should I do when some Embassy/Consulate gives me a red stamp and, if I get a new passport, to what extent can any Thai authority link my new passport to my old one, I wonder how one can claim that such activities are as pristine as often suggested on here.

 

Your argument confuses me- are you talking about visa offences, or a work related offence that you have assumed to be illegal?

[JLCrab]

So you are confused.

 

It is moot point whether working on a tourist visa is legal or not if you can't get a tourist visa. And while Immigration and Labour may think it is perfectly OK to do some online work on your first or second tourist visa, when you are on your tenth or twelfth they might not look at it the same way.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

Why are the Chinese trading here?
Avoiding some laws?

If farang tourists here set up a boiler room scamming others in a third country and depositing funds offshore they would be guilty of offenses under the Computer Crimes Act.

[JLCrab]

The Chinese arrived in April on tourist visas. The 'bust' was May10. According to the translation from ThaiRath:

 

"Fines totaling 265,000 baht or 1,600 baht per person are being paid before the stock traders will be repatriated back to China, reported Thai Rath."

 

So whatever they did, they did it on their first and probably only Tourist Visa and stating on their Visa Application that their purpose for travel was for 'Pleasure Only' (per Thai Visa Application form, Thai Embassy Beijing)

 

 

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

So you are confused.

 

It is moot point whether working on a tourist visa is legal or not if you can't get a tourist visa. And while Immigration and Labour may think it is perfectly OK to do some online work on your first or second tourist visa, when you are on your tenth or twelfth they might not look at it the same way.

 

 

There you go again- confusing visa issues with work issues.  Banging on about multiple tourist visas, and attempting to make online work synonymous with illegality.  

 

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The Chinese arrived in April on tourist visas. The 'bust' was May10. According to the translation from ThaiRath:

 

"Fines totaling 265,000 baht or 1,600 baht per person are being paid before the stock traders will be repatriated back to China, reported Thai Rath."

 

So whatever they did, they did it on their first and probably only Tourist Visa and stating on their Visa Application that their purpose for travel was for 'Pleasure Only' (per Thai Visa Application form, Thai Embassy Beijing)

 

 

The fine was levied against the hotel operator for failing to report residence.

 

I don't believe they were deported; I think it was an assumption that they would be repatriated since most were up a gum tree at that point.

 

There is something fishy in what they were doing.

[mommysboy]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:22 AM, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I and maybe others are getting very tired of your holier than thou attitude. But you might like to reveal why you are such an expert and consider yourself more knowledgeable than all those on here that you take every opportunity to mock.

Yes, but he's right.

[JLCrab]

I am not confused: How can you work online on a tourist visa if you don't have a tourist visa? 

[khunpa]

Lets be realistic.

 

We live in 2018 and digital normads can be seen everywhere in the world. Go to any cafe and you will see one. I was at a cafe today and there was at least 5 there, all working on their computers.

 

Thailand has no interest or gain at all by chasing digital normads and they know it. 

 

Its the same as when tourist check their work mail while here or business people fly in for meetings on turist visas. It is and would be impossible to chase this in any way.

[JLCrab]

OK let's be realistic. Thailand does not now chase digital nomad type persons on tourist visas. The chase will be on the means that digital nomads now  use and in the future may use to live semi-permanently on a succession of tourist visas or maybe other type (ED?) visas.

[bkkcanuck8]

20 hours ago, khunpa said:

Lets be realistic.

 

We live in 2018 and digital normads can be seen everywhere in the world. Go to any cafe and you will see one. I was at a cafe today and there was at least 5 there, all working on their computers.

 

Thailand has no interest or gain at all by chasing digital normads and they know it. 

 

Its the same as when tourist check their work mail while here or business people fly in for meetings on turist visas. It is and would be impossible to chase this in any way.

Thailand may have no interest or gain by chasing digital nomads out, but that does not mean that they won't.  To be quite honest they would not give that group a second thought when enacting changes to immigration policy.  Thailand often states that it wants to have "quality of quantity", and they could easily make successive tourist visas much much more difficult (i.e. making the requirements for bank deposits in line with retirement requirements -- pro-rated; i.e. not 20,000 but 200,000) in a bid to reduce tourism - as an offset to targetting wealthier tourists.  Thailand gets too many tourists, and there are unwanted side-effects to that.  They could, in the end, try to gain control of it while focusing more on building the domestic economy.  If you have a stronger domestic economy, you need to rely less on tourism.   Digital nomads -- not making up a large part of the economy -- could end up being caught in the crossfire based on other priorities.  

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thailand may have no interest or gain by chasing digital nomads out, but that does not mean that they won't.  To be quite honest they would not give that group a second thought when enacting changes to immigration policy.  Thailand often states that it wants to have "quality of quantity", and they could easily make successive tourist visas much much more difficult (i.e. making the requirements for bank deposits in line with retirement requirements -- pro-rated; i.e. not 20,000 but 200,000) in a bid to reduce tourism - as an offset to targetting wealthier tourists.  Thailand gets too many tourists, and there are unwanted side-effects to that.  They could, in the end, try to gain control of it while focusing more on building the domestic economy.  If you have a stronger domestic economy, you need to rely less on tourism.   Digital nomads -- not making up a large part of the economy -- could end up being caught in the crossfire based on other priorities.  

 

We know all this, and the general principle that nothing is guaranteed could apply to others classes of visa, and just about anything in this country.  The rest is just conjecture about macro economic policy.

 

Yes, they have actually chopped and changed rules in the past too, and at the moment seem to be going through one of their more liberal phases.  there is a tendency to swing from one extreme to another, therefore one could predict a marked tightening imo.

[Happy Grumpy]

6 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Digital nomads -- not making up a large part of the economy -- could end up being caught in the crossfire based on other priorities.  

?

 

Oh man... the more I read off the old know-nothings the more I laugh. ?

[JLCrab]

Well I'm still waiting for the comedy but in the meantime the inimitable ZERO! -- Tragedy tomorrow. Comedy Tonight!