Guest houses must now get a hotel license--any info?

[JAZZDOG]

58 minutes ago, BestB said:

Lots of guessing and speculating here, I have first had experience with this in Pattaya.

 

Forgive very long post, but hopefully it will help other business owners and clear up the confusion

 

I have been running a boutique hotel in Pattaya for over 8 years.

 

I was not required to have hotel license, only room for rent license, which i have, along with all other necessary licences, including tax receipts

 

Earlier this week, i believe about 8 tourist police officers, rushed in from all sides of the hotel.

 

They were grabbing and touching everything, asking to see "bayanuyat", i have all my licenses displayed.

 

They did not accept that , took bookings, along with price list, receipts and everything else they could carry away

 

I was taken to tourist police headquarters  where i was put in the big room along with another about 8 people.

 

As i learned later, they were hotel owners and managers, in total another 5 hotels.

 

Since about 16:00pm, to 23:00 pm we were held there, while officers were filling out paperwork.photo's etc

 

In the end, we were told, we are all under arrest for illegally operating business and now would be taken down to police station to be charged.

 

Once we arrived in police station, we were thrown into jail, general population, Not the holding room but locked up in the cells.

 

Through some "negotiations" we were given an option to pay 150 000 bond, to be released but still to go to court.

 

I had some good friends "assist" me, i chose not to pay 150 000 and stayed locked up.

 

My friends, spoke to his friends and with small token of appreciation, head prosecutor agreed to prepare court documents in the middle of the night, so i could be taken to court in the morning, otherwise its 3-5 days wait to front the court, meaning 3-5 days locked up

 

Will not talk about the cells, unless someone needs to know.

 

Head prosecutor, suggested i do not request translator and speak to court directly(my thai was good enough according to him and again according to him Thai judges do like foreigners who speak Thai and go more lenient.

 

Believe it or not, but this is exactly what happened, Judge was about 1/3 lenient towards me than towards Thai owners.

 

Anyhow, if anyone need more detailed information about the raid and arrest process, just ask away and i will share.

 

Now on to getting correct license.

 

Putting it as basic as possible, but no chance in hell.

 

The new requirements simply can not be met by already existing buildings.

 

Again i good friend with "good" connections, arranged a meeting with the "right" people and even with offers to be "very greatfull" it just not possible and here is why

 

So one manages to pass all the new regulations, such as parking, green zone, 2 staircases, sprinkler system (keep in mind cost of adding all of this is staggering) now comes the next problem.

 

Was building built with all correct approvals? if it was, great, were submitted building plans for hotel? Lets be creative and imagine it was so and all is correct, now we have another problem which is distance from the road and distance from other buildings.

 

Basically what i am saying is there is no way for an existing building to get legal, no matter the size of it.

 

Saying all of that, police, judge, and all other officials do not agree with this requirements and do not wish to enforce it, however are ordered and forced to do so from BKK.

 

The silliness and lack of any and all thinking with this new regs is trully  astonishing.

 

So with rooms for rent license, building does not need any parking where people rent by the month, but for a hotel license where people rent by the day, parking is required,  I am almost certain, tourists in hotel are less likely to own a vehicle than a resident staying for a month

 

Then of course the fire safety, again tourist must be safe, but seems to be acceptable for residents to burn?

 

Green zones and everything else makes just as little sense as the rest of it.

 

 

So what was the outcome for you and others? Are you shut down permenantly?

[BestB]

Just now, JAZZDOG said:

So what was the outcome for you and others? Are you shut down permenantly?

Well..... here is the thing. There is no outcome.

 

I had to pay 40 000 baht in court, which is bond, not a fine. Which would be refunded after 2 months, i have to sign in every 6 days in court.

 

There is no court order, there is no direction to close down

 

When i asked tourist police what now, they do not know.

 

When asked if i can open, they said, yes but change signs "monthly only"

 

Court officers, said pretty much the same thing, to get the hotel license, which is impossible to get to which they agreed

 

So basically i have no idea as i have no court order and no police orders, nothing.

 

Called other owners who were locked up with me, they open as usual, they said if they come back again, they can arrest them again, they not going to close, but they were Thai. 

 

Do not think foreigner can play the same game.

 

So in the end, i have no idea.nor does anyone else for that matter, including officials

[digbeth]

In the interim, the way to get by is probably only advertise monthly price, and keep receipt for official that guest were booked for whole/couple of months but leave early, and refunded them the difference and having a lease agreement with every guest/'tenant' 

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, digbeth said:

In the interim, the way to get by is probably only advertise monthly price, and keep receipt for official that guest were booked for whole/couple of months but leave early, and refunded them the difference and having a lease agreement with every guest/'tenant' 

Theoretically its a good idea, but try explaining each and every guest may not work out so well. 

 

Also what about online bookings

 

 

[digbeth]

your guest don't need to know, one set of receipt/book for the guest and another for when they come looking again, but only have monthly advertised price on premise, big 'monthly rental only' on the wall might help too.

 

If the police take the initiative to look you up on agoda or booking.com or have someone book in and use that as evidence then such charade isn't gonna help

 

Hopefully this'll blow over in a couple of months like most things the Thai make a fuss about enforcing but let go due to short attention span

[BestB]

1 minute ago, digbeth said:

your guest don't need to know, one set of receipt/book for the guest and another for when they come looking again, but only have monthly advertised price on premise, big 'monthly rental only' on the wall might help too.

 

If the police take the initiative to look you up on agoda or booking.com or have someone book in and use that as evidence then such charade isn't gonna help

 

Hopefully this'll blow over in a couple of months like most things the Thai make a fuss about enforcing but let go due to short attention span

I can confirm they are checking on booking sites. Not too sure if they can use that in court as evidence, but they do check there also. One could avoid being arrested, i know this now, because i have been, so could avoid it for the future, but one slip and off to jail(which is not all that bad, haha)

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, BestB said:

Lots of guessing and speculating here, I have first had experience with this in Pattaya.

 

Forgive very long post, but hopefully it will help other business owners and clear up the confusion

 

I have been running a boutique hotel in Pattaya for over 8 years.

 

I was not required to have hotel license, only room for rent license, which i have, along with all other necessary licences, including tax receipts

 

Earlier this week, i believe about 8 tourist police officers, rushed in from all sides of the hotel.

 

They were grabbing and touching everything, asking to see "bayanuyat", i have all my licenses displayed.

 

They did not accept that , took bookings, along with price list, receipts and everything else they could carry away

 

I was taken to tourist police headquarters  where i was put in the big room along with another about 8 people.

 

As i learned later, they were hotel owners and managers, in total another 5 hotels.

 

Since about 16:00pm, to 23:00 pm we were held there, while officers were filling out paperwork.photo's etc

 

In the end, we were told, we are all under arrest for illegally operating business and now would be taken down to police station to be charged.

 

Once we arrived in police station, we were thrown into jail, general population, Not the holding room but locked up in the cells.

 

Through some "negotiations" we were given an option to pay 150 000 bond, to be released but still to go to court.

 

I had some good friends "assist" me, i chose not to pay 150 000 and stayed locked up.

 

My friends, spoke to his friends and with small token of appreciation, head prosecutor agreed to prepare court documents in the middle of the night, so i could be taken to court in the morning, otherwise its 3-5 days wait to front the court, meaning 3-5 days locked up

 

Will not talk about the cells, unless someone needs to know.

 

Head prosecutor, suggested i do not request translator and speak to court directly(my thai was good enough according to him and again according to him Thai judges do like foreigners who speak Thai and go more lenient.

 

Believe it or not, but this is exactly what happened, Judge was about 1/3 lenient towards me than towards Thai owners.

 

Anyhow, if anyone need more detailed information about the raid and arrest process, just ask away and i will share.

 

Now on to getting correct license.

 

Putting it as basic as possible, but no chance in hell.

 

The new requirements simply can not be met by already existing buildings.

 

Again i good friend with "good" connections, arranged a meeting with the "right" people and even with offers to be "very greatfull" it just not possible and here is why

 

So one manages to pass all the new regulations, such as parking, green zone, 2 staircases, sprinkler system (keep in mind cost of adding all of this is staggering) now comes the next problem.

 

Was building built with all correct approvals? if it was, great, were submitted building plans for hotel? Lets be creative and imagine it was so and all is correct, now we have another problem which is distance from the road and distance from other buildings.

 

Basically what i am saying is there is no way for an existing building to get legal, no matter the size of it.

 

Saying all of that, police, judge, and all other officials do not agree with this requirements and do not wish to enforce it, however are ordered and forced to do so from BKK.

 

The silliness and lack of any and all thinking with this new regs is trully  astonishing.

 

So with rooms for rent license, building does not need any parking where people rent by the month, but for a hotel license where people rent by the day, parking is required,  I am almost certain, tourists in hotel are less likely to own a vehicle than a resident staying for a month

 

Then of course the fire safety, again tourist must be safe, but seems to be acceptable for residents to burn?

 

Green zones and everything else makes just as little sense as the rest of it.

 

 

If there were an "Appreciate it" icon I would have given you that.  I can't say I like this, what is happening is terrible.  Maybe it will eventually be sorted out and life will return to normal, but a lot of good people will be hurt before this is over.

[JAZZDOG]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

If there were an "Appreciate it" icon I would have given you that.  I can't say I like this, what is happening is terrible.  Maybe it will eventually be sorted out and life will return to normal, but a lot of good people will be hurt before this is over.

If this government thinks it is a good idea to subject foreign investors in this manner it is time to cut losses and head for the exits. This makes as much sense as closing the 49% condo ownership deal and then you have to pretend your just renting the condo you thought you owned. They intent to turn 90% of ST housing into LT housing and leave tourist without a place to stay, just brilliant! 

[MekkOne]

32 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

If this government thinks it is a good idea to subject foreign investors in this manner it is time to cut losses and head for the exits. This makes as much sense as closing the 49% condo ownership deal and then you have to pretend your just renting the condo you thought you owned. They intent to turn 90% of ST housing into LT housing and leave tourist without a place to stay, just brilliant! 

I think you misunderstood what they want to do, IMHO they don't have a clue about it and I tell you more; if this is the trend, closing down this kind of accommodation that are the engine of the tourist economy of this country, is not even worth to eventually turn your business into a restaurant of something else, Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanmar, Malaysia will still give a good alternative and people won't think about it twice.

[BobBKK]

9 hours ago, BestB said:

Well..... here is the thing. There is no outcome.

 

I had to pay 40 000 baht in court, which is bond, not a fine. Which would be refunded after 2 months, i have to sign in every 6 days in court.

 

There is no court order, there is no direction to close down

 

When i asked tourist police what now, they do not know.

 

When asked if i can open, they said, yes but change signs "monthly only"

 

Court officers, said pretty much the same thing, to get the hotel license, which is impossible to get to which they agreed

 

So basically i have no idea as i have no court order and no police orders, nothing.

 

Called other owners who were locked up with me, they open as usual, they said if they come back again, they can arrest them again, they not going to close, but they were Thai. 

 

Do not think foreigner can play the same game.

 

So in the end, i have no idea.nor does anyone else for that matter, including officials

 

You also don't have a work permit?  I'd strongly advise you to shut down. It is clear that you cannot rent out under 30 days as you need the license. Sorry about that but the risk is just not worth it.

[BobBKK]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I posted on the Bkk forum asking about closures in the Khao San area, which would be the only equivalent, IMO, of the C M situation, and had no replies saying guest houses in Khao San were closed. I can only assume that this is a C M thing and not nation wide. C M night life industry is obviously penalised by excessively restrictive opening hours, so I am not surprised that the local authorities are prepared to act excessively in penalising business.

IMO it's all about the usual situation, and little to do with actual hotel regulations. I find it hard to believe that they will actually close all the small places inside the moat as that would devastate the backpacker demographic, which isn't going to transfer to expensive hotels. Obviously, it's impossible for them to qualify on parking or green space, as inside the moat is all built up. Even expensive hotels don't have enough parking inside the moat.

The real danger though, IMO, is that many places call the bluff and refuse to pay up, which could precipitate a crisis.

If it's true that the police are enforcing something before it's actually legally enforceable, it is very disturbing.

 

As I understand it it is several things?  when the building is built did it get the required consent for a hotel?  does it have the parking and all the other jazz?  does it have the hotel license?  and if a foreigner is involved do they have the work permit?  I do own several condos and in 10 years I have always insisted on 12 month contracts. Not because of these laws but because it's less hassle.

 

Condos aside (most owners support long term rentals only), guest house are 'mini'hotels' and I don't know of any country that allows you just to 'start one' without the necessary permits. Unfortunately some people will get hit as they apply the law as, up until now, the law has been there but it's been very lax. My personal opinion is if you are not Thai stay out of business here and if you own a condo stick to 6/12 contracts if you want to rent out.

Very disturbing being put in jail and as it should be a CIVIL matter that is outrageous!

[JAZZDOG]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

You also don't have a work permit?  I'd strongly advise you to shut down. It is clear that you cannot rent out under 30 days as you need the license. Sorry about that but the risk is just not worth it.

Do you understand how many beds will be eliminated if this fiasco is allowed to continue. Existing ST housing averages 60% occupancy based on 33 million visitors. High season closer to 90%. Maybe 10% of hotels are legit, the rest it is impossible. High season the licensed hotels will be 100% and 28 million guests will be turned away. You can debate the numbers but come high season if this foolishness is allowed to continue there will be tens of millions less tourist coming to LOS. 

[Peterw42]

11 hours ago, BestB said:

I was not required to have hotel license, only room for rent license, which i have, along with all other necessary licences, including tax receipts

What is a room for rent license? Interested to know why the police/courts etc didn't accept it. Is it no longer a valid license ? Wouldn't you have a case with the person/office who advised that was all the license you needed ?

It seems odd that new laws would be introduced, rendering the old legal license invalid, without some changeover/recognition of the old legal license.

[BobBKK]

Just now, JAZZDOG said:

Do you understand how many beds will be eliminated if this fiasco is allowed to continue. Existing ST housing averages 60% occupancy based on 33 million visitors. High season closer to 90%. Maybe 10% of hotels are legit, the rest it is impossible. High season the licensed hotels will be 100% and 28 million guests will be turned away. You can debate the numbers but come high season if this foolishness is allowed to continue there will be tens of millions less tourist coming to LOS. 

 

Yes I understand some tourists might be hit but nowhere near what you are suggesting but please take a balanced view?  if you build a 'hotel' with no consent and have no license what do you expect will happen?  I'm not defending the authorities I'm just stating a fact.

[JAZZDOG]

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

My personal opinion is if you are not Thai stay out of business here

Not a far reach from maybe deciding foreign ownership of condos should be reversed or maybe farang renting their condos are infringing on Thais ability to maximize profits doing the same. Or maybe just like farang hotel owners being required to have a WP to simply sign docs or reserve rentals, act as director this might be applied to condo owners renting out under retirement extensions. After all you are working and making income. This is a slippery slope the government has embarked upon.

[JAZZDOG]

15 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

What is a room for rent license? Interested to know why the police/courts etc didn't accept it. Is it no longer a valid license ? Wouldn't you have a case with the person/office who advised that was all the license you needed ?

It seems odd that new laws would be introduced, rendering the old legal license invalid, without some changeover/recognition of the old legal license.

Stranger yet is the new law was introduced 8/2016 to takes effect in august but people are being cited two months before the new law takes effect?

I had heard that the Rooms to Rent semantics was the path to get around this insanity but it appears the police are once more sheeple following orders without a clue what the law is. Drive around and you will notice all the new "Rooms for Rent"

signs replacing hotel and guesthouse signs. I can only guess that means rentals over 30 days.

[Peterw42]

29 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Stranger yet is the new law was introduced 8/2016 to takes effect in august but people are being cited two months before the new law takes effect?

I had heard that the Rooms to Rent semantics was the path to get around this insanity but it appears the police are once more sheeple following orders without a clue what the law is. Drive around and you will notice all the new "Rooms for Rent"

signs replacing hotel and guesthouse signs. I can only guess that means rentals over 30 days.

I think therein lies the confusion, the new law is highlighting, the places that were never legal and never will be, the places that were legal but need to change license but have done nothing in the 2 year period and the places that are trying to qualify for the new license.

I get the feeling that a "room for rent license" was only ever a license to rent out the spare room in a house etc, not a license to run a guest-house..

[BestB]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

 

You also don't have a work permit?  I'd strongly advise you to shut down. It is clear that you cannot rent out under 30 days as you need the license. Sorry about that but the risk is just not worth it.

Who told you I do not have WP?

[BestB]

54 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

What is a room for rent license? Interested to know why the police/courts etc didn't accept it. Is it no longer a valid license ? Wouldn't you have a case with the person/office who advised that was all the license you needed ?

It seems odd that new laws would be introduced, rendering the old legal license invalid, without some changeover/recognition of the old legal license.

Room for rent license is exactly what it says, room for rent license , issued by city hall.

 

prevuously was the only license required to operate a hotel with under 50 rooms capacity

 

new regulation allows this license to operate any amount of rooms but renting by month not by day.

 

so it is not invalid but rather restrictive 

[MekkOne]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I think therein lies the confusion, the new law is highlighting, the places that were never legal and never will be, the places that were legal but need to change license but have done nothing in the 2 year period and the places that are trying to qualify for the new license.

I get the feeling that a "room for rent license" was only ever a license to rent out the spare room in a house etc, not a license to run a guest-house..

So every GH, Hostel or Hotel wit a wall adjacent to another building will never be legal. This is what the law says. Now count them.

[BestB]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I think therein lies the confusion, the new law is highlighting, the places that were never legal and never will be, the places that were legal but need to change license but have done nothing in the 2 year period and the places that are trying to qualify for the new license.

I get the feeling that a "room for rent license" was only ever a license to rent out the spare room in a house etc, not a license to run a guest-house..

Hotel license were not needed for under 50 rooms. You can give 100 years but of hotel license not being issued , not much one can do.

[BestB]

59 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

Yes I understand some tourists might be hit but nowhere near what you are suggesting but please take a balanced view?  if you build a 'hotel' with no consent and have no license what do you expect will happen?  I'm not defending the authorities I'm just stating a fact.

Not every “hotel” was built by its original owner.

 

many of not most small buildings were converted into a business at a later date with building approvals at the time.

 

just like people do not build restaurants , they convert premises into one

[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, MekkOne said:

So every GH, Hostel or Hotel wit a wall adjacent to another building will never be legal. This is what the law says. Now count them.

Yes, its does appear crazy that most buildings cannot comply. I wonder how many exsisting hotel licenses are in buildings that dont comply and if they will have license cancelled.

[heybruce]

10 minutes ago, BestB said:

Hotel license were not needed for under 50 rooms. You can give 100 years but of hotel license not being issued , not much one can do.

Very good point.  Hotel licenses not only weren't required until now, they weren't available.  If a guest house owner inquired into getting one, they were told there was no such license for their business.

[cmsally]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, its does appear crazy that most buildings cannot comply. I wonder how many exsisting hotel licenses are in buildings that dont comply and if they will have license cancelled.

This is an interesting aspect. Because in the past there wasn't any paperwork that actually proved your building was licensed as a hotel building (other than the actual hotel license). Many places must have the old hotel license but not have the building license (which has just been introduced and is now an essential part of the hotel licensing process). Does this mean they will be unable to renew their hotel license because of this?

[BestB]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, its does appear crazy that most buildings cannot comply. I wonder how many exsisting hotel licenses are in buildings that dont comply and if they will have license cancelled.

I believe there are only 300 hotel licenses nationwide.

 

also keep in mind if you built one 10, even 5 years ago , there was nothing to stop a building or a condo to be built next to you making your premises in breach of the new regulations 

[cmsally]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Very good point.  Hotel licenses not only weren't required until now, they weren't available.  If a guest house owner inquired into getting one, they were told there was no such license for their business.

That is actually not correct, if you persevered enough, you could get one ( a hotel license that is).

[BestB]

1 minute ago, cmsally said:

This is an interesting aspect. Because in the past there wasn't any paperwork that actually proved your building was licensed as a hotel building (other than the actual hotel license). Many places must have the old hotel license but not have the building license (which has just been introduced and is now an essential part of the hotel licensing process). Does this mean they will be unable to renew their hotel license because of this?

I am guessing the reason why so many bigger hotels have an expired hotel license as they could not renew 

[BobBKK]

17 minutes ago, BestB said:

Who told you I do not have WP?

 

If you do have a WP that is one requirement off the long list of things you need well done!  now go get a license as it's the law.

[cmsally]

1 minute ago, BestB said:

I am guessing the reason why so many bigger hotels have an expired hotel license as they could not renew 

Now if you let your license expire, you have to start the whole process from the beginning! Basically the same as applying from scratch!