Moving to Thailand, working online - what do I do?

[brewsterbudgen]

I just left Thailand after 11 years there.  Do yourself a huge favor and don't go.  It is not what it used to be

Maybe he's never been before. I bet you loved the place when you first arrived.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[ExpatDraco]

I don't believe a word of this. If "freelancers" could get work permits thousands of us would have done so over the years.

Well, did anyone tried it first hand, that's what I wonder?

It's a case by case decission, so maybe people just don't know about it.

Anyway worth some investigation time imo. :)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[impulse]

55 minutes ago, ExpatDraco said:

7 hours ago, elviajero said:

I don't believe a word of this. If "freelancers" could get work permits thousands of us would have done so over the years.

Well, did anyone tried it first hand, that's what I wonder?

It's a case by case decission, so maybe people just don't know about it.

Anyway worth some investigation time imo. ?

 

I'd be more concerned that I've shown my hand if my application were rejected.

 

Sure, it's worth investigating.  But actually applying seems a little risky.  As easy as it is to stay under the radar working online (today- who knows what tomorrow will bring?), why take the chance?

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by impulse

[davidst01]

On 5/28/2018 at 9:24 AM, phuketrichard said:

keep ur mouth shut, dont post on forums ur working as a digital nomad..

why not. as long as ones user name is not the OPs name then one is completely anonymous. Do you agree... there is no risk

 

[LivinLOS]

Its not legal.. End of. 

 

It is also unenforced, like so much here. 

 

The fact is a very simple fully legal alternative is presented, one where the social contributions not only benefit the country you are residing in but also can be offset against a home country tax bill (you are paying taxes I guess), and the instant expat reaction is to reject it out of hand, too expensive, too this, too that.. This tells you a lot about the expat community. They would rather sit on busses, worry about visa runs, go begging around the region to try to obtain another stamp, etc etc. 

 

If you are a successful online worker, life can be very easy and fully legal by using the services of a BOI registered umbrella company. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by LivinLOS

[ExpatDraco]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

If you are a successful online worker, life can be very easy and fully legal by using the services of a BOI registered umbrella company. 

 

Are there others than Iglu? If so, which ones?

[KamalaRider]

Just now, LivinLOS said:

Its not legal.. End of. 

 

It is also unenforced, like so much here. 

 

The fact is a very simple fully legal alternative is presented, one where the social contributions not only benefit the country you are residing in but also can be offset against a home country tax bill (you are paying taxes I guess), and the instant expat reaction is to reject it out of hand, too expensive, too this, too that.. This tells you a lot about the expat community. They would rather sit on busses, worry about visa runs, go begging around the region to try to obtain another stamp, etc etc. 

 

If you are a successful online worker, life can be very easy and fully legal by using the services of a BOI registered umbrella company. 

BOI requires  a LOT of administration and regular business reports to tax department, labor department and BOI.

I'm not sure I would have started off with a BOI company until I knew I would stay. 

It's also more costly to start, more legal issues, hence higher lawyer/accountant cost. 

The benefits if staying are great though but he's an american and can already own a (American treaty) Ltd company 100% so I wouldn't recommend a BOI. 

A Ltd.,Co. on the other hand sounds like a viable option even if he has to send money to Thailand for his income and company costs like accountant, taxes and whatnot.

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by KamalaRider

[gk10002000]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:02 PM, Boy Wonder said:

Thank you VERY much. This is exactly the sort of information I was looking for. I was completely unaware that working remote was unorthodox, and I tend to overshare at times... definitely avoided some potential issues by reading this. I will go in with a tourist visa and renew it every 3 months (I can't be bothered flying every month to renew the monthly visa upon arrival), and I'll be sure to keep my head down about how I make my money.

 

Again, thanks a bunch.

If you read more on this Visa forum, you will find that flying in and out monthly has limits as do many of the other visas, tourist included.  There are some written and some not so written usage limits, number of visas in a 12 month period, total number of visas, etc.  Keep some cash on hand and be ready for some changes that may pop up if you start stretching things.

[LivinLOS]

21 hours ago, KamalaRider said:

BOI requires  a LOT of administration and regular business reports to tax department, labor department and BOI.

I'm not sure I would have started off with a BOI company until I knew I would stay. 

It's also more costly to start, more legal issues, hence higher lawyer/accountant cost. 

The benefits if staying are great though but he's an american and can already own a (American treaty) Ltd company 100% so I wouldn't recommend a BOI. 

A Ltd.,Co. on the other hand sounds like a viable option even if he has to send money to Thailand for his income and company costs like accountant, taxes and whatnot.

 

You are not understanding what I wrote. 

 

BOI companies are free to engage workers in sectors like tech, without 4 (or whatever) thais per work permit. That results in multiple umbrella companies operating totally legally and with the express permission of the business plan by the BOI. 

 

iglu.net being one.. 

 

I am not in any way suggesting a online worker set up his own BOI. I am suggesting he uses the services of a BOI who pays his taxes and social costs, sorts out his visa etc etc for a very modest fee. 

 

An LTD company offshore will never be fully legal here.. May as well simply break the law. 

[LivinLOS]

On 5/29/2018 at 7:13 AM, ExpatDraco said:

 

Are there others than Iglu? If so, which ones?

yes seen 2 or 3 in the 'sponsored' ads on my facebook feed.. One in bangkok one in chiang mai minimum. 

[Happy Grumpy]

Fully legal. ?

 

Get a TIN (Tax Number) from the Thai Revenue Department and pay yer taxes here.

 

Can do this on a Tourist Visa as remote workers, stock traders, etc etc don't come under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

 

As it's so popular nowadays, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Co-Working Spaces for remote workers to legally work from while here as a tourist/for study etc. etc.

 

https://www.coworker.com/thailand

 

Enjoy your trip. ?

[jackdd]

19 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

You are not understanding what I wrote. 

 

BOI companies are free to engage workers in sectors like tech, without 4 (or whatever) thais per work permit. That results in multiple umbrella companies operating totally legally and with the express permission of the business plan by the BOI. 

 

iglu.net being one.. 

 

I am not in any way suggesting a online worker set up his own BOI. I am suggesting he uses the services of a BOI who pays his taxes and social costs, sorts out his visa etc etc for a very modest fee. 

 

An LTD company offshore will never be fully legal here.. May as well simply break the law. 

You call 750 USD per month a modest fee? With 2 years Iglu you could buy 5 years thai elite visa

[elviajero]

49 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Fully legal. ?

Any work requires permission and without it the work is illegal.

 

49 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Get a TIN (Tax Number) from the Thai Revenue Department and pay yer taxes here.

Whether or not you pay tax has no bearing on the legality of the work.

 

50 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Can do this on a Tourist Visa as remote workers, stock traders, etc etc don't come under the Alien Worker's Act.

Tourist are not exempt from the Immigration Act, and the Alien Employment Act doesn’t apply to tourists unless they are illegally working for a Thai business.

 

55 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

As it's so popular nowadays, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Co-Working Spaces for remote workers to legally work from while here as a tourist/for study etc. etc.

Co-working spaces that allow foreigners to work on their premises are almost certainly breaking the law. They were/are primarily for Thais.

 

Working in a co-working space does not make the work legal.

[norrska]

On 5/28/2018 at 9:24 AM, phuketrichard said:

keep ur mouth shut, dont post on forums ur working as a digital nomad..

didn't he just do the opposite?

[Happy Grumpy]

7 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Co-working spaces that allow foreigners to work on their premises are almost certainly breaking the law.

?

 

 

That's probably the most hilarious part of your nonsense.

 

Thanks for the laugh. ?

[ExpatDraco]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

You call 750 USD per month a modest fee? With 2 years Iglu you could buy 5 years thai elite visa

 

Yeah, that's steep. Especially if you don't need/use their co-working spaces.

 

Any alternative umbrella company you know?

[Happy Grumpy]

As I've mentioned before in other threads, isn't it great that the DoI and MoL actually know the laws. ?

 

Fully legal.

No need for a WP when working remotely online for a non-Thai company or company in Thailand. 

 

Just as Pol. Col. of Immigration has declared at a public seminar on such matters.

<removed>

Edited May 31, 2018 by ubonjoe
baiting comment removed

[donnacha]

Just posting again to get this thread back on track.

The OP is a US citizen who wants to come here for six months while working remotely and presumably continuing to get paid into his US bank account.

The way to do that is to fly over and not forget to bring his laptop with him. Absolutely nothing else is required, although getting a tourist visa first may save him one visa run.

These threads tend to get derailed by two types of poster:

1. The self-righteous expats, almost always safely here on a retirement visa, who feel it necessary to say you cannot do something because you do not have the paperwork and, therefore, it is "illegal". Thailand and most of the world would grind to a halt if anyone paid any attention to these loonies. Anyone who gets that worked up about exact definitions is clearly here for the ladyboys.

2. The sock-puppet accounts owned by opportunist scammers iglu.net that now derail every thread about working in Thailand to spread fear and promote the idea that you need to give them a third of your earnings. Their "service" would never even have been dreamt up if there was not already a huge digital nomad scene in Chiang Mai, happily working online and earning money for years without any paperwork at all. All of iglu.net's marketing, including a glossy website that somehow manages to avoid mentioning how big a slice of your earnings they will extract, is designed to panic people from the US and other authoritarian countries where breaking the law has dire consequences.

In Thailand, laws are only really enforced as a way to generate money. As far as visas are concerned, what they would really like is for all the farang to buy an Elite visa for $15K but, as we seem to be stubbornly refusing to play ball, they are not yet in a position to torpedo the quarter of their economy which depends on mass tourism.

Yes, if you get caught on a motorbike without a helmet you will find yourself contributing a sizable donation to the lucky policeman's mia noi fund, but no cop or bureaucrat has yet figured out a way to raid Tom n Tom's Coffee and catch the guy running a hamster rental startup from his Macbook. No Thai scientist has yet been able to devise a piss test to detect web designers (even though most web designers are taking the piss).

To them, we are just crazy farang who spend a lot of money and waste all day on our laptops. The idea of choosing to run your own online business, rather than taking a safe, easy job requiring no work in the government or the police, is alien to them, they don't really believe that such a thing actually exists.

So, there is zero reason to complicate things. Come and enjoy Thailand, ignore the embittered expats and the scammers trying to make their living from you.
 

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

As I've mentioned before in other threads, isn't it great that the DoI and MoL actually know the laws. ?

 

Fully legal.

No need for a WP when working remotely online for a non-Thai company or company in Thailand. 

 

Just as Pol. Col. of Immigration has declared at a public seminar on such matters.

<removed>

Would you like some actual facts?

 

The actual quote was;

"What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

 

There are few important points:-

• They don't say it's legal but that you can do it.
• No definition exists as to who immigration qualify as a 'digital nomad'.
• They only represent Chiang Mai Immigration.
• This statement does not change the law.
• The Immigration Bureau have never made a public statement exempting any remote workers from the law.

It is completely reasonable for any nation to allow a tourist to keep up with his work/business whilst on holiday, and Thailand treats all 'tourists' the same way. Basically they have to allow all tourist visa holders this pass or prosecute all tourists, which would be impractical, impossible and not worth the effort. They have not singled out DN's/remote workers for special treatment.

 

Thailand will probably do what they have always done and wait until a problem gets out of hand before clamping down. The fact that they tolerate remote work does not make it legal. I doubt they will ever exempt 'digital nomads/remote workers', but if they decide to clamp down they will make it harder still for perpetual tourism to stop long stays as a tourist. I don't see them ever prosecuting remote work because it wouldn't be practical.

[elviajero]

On 5/29/2018 at 1:57 AM, ExpatDraco said:

Well, did anyone tried it first hand, that's what I wonder?

It's a case by case decission, so maybe people just don't know about it.

Anyway worth some investigation time imo. ?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

No one has tried because it’s not possible. If it was there would be evidence/reports all over the internet.

 

Whoever the “knowledgeable person” is they are clearly just speculating.

 

No “freelance” foreigner can walk into any labour office and get work permit without the backing of a Thai based business who are taking them on as an employee or consultant.

[tingtongtourist]

On 5/28/2018 at 2:31 PM, JLCrab said:

If the authorities at some point crack down, they will likely crack down on visas, not a raid on persons sitting in a shared work space. But that will likely involve persons on visas for much longer term than the OP.

 

But if you are in a shared work space, I would keep another browser window open so you could quickly switch over and say that you are just writing a letter to your mother.

i never did understand the concept of these workspaces. just a silly waste of money really.

on the legality of it, i would not trust it here.

 

My understanding in Thailand is,  you only have to be present (in the company of) of wrongdoers and you can be charged the same crime as them.

 

and then a possibilitu of a raid at any time. Thai police probably think they are raiding a boiler room operation.

and most farangs like to stay here xx years and cant be assed learning the language..

 

so good luck explaining to the cops on the way to prison.

 

as for the OP, if you do this in your own room then who will know?

 

strange such a silly question thread have 4 pages already

[arithai12]

On 5/28/2018 at 6:44 AM, donnacha said:

....

Certain expats have a huge bee in their bonnets about digital nomads because they don't, themselves, have the necessary skills or education to be able to work online and have to scrape by on teaching English or other low-paid work.

....

Funny, I should have thought that a SW engineer with the great skills that you attribute to digital nomads would have been able to find all the information he needs with some search on the internet and in previous similar posts on this forum.

[JLCrab]

On 5/28/2018 at 6:44 AM, donnacha said:

Just keep your head down and do your work, like tens of thousands of others doing exactly the same thing. There is no permit for doing remote work in Thailand. There should be but the authorities don't understand the concept.
  

Au contraire I think they understand the concept quite well and what they understand is that the digital nomad as referenced above does not create jobs for Thai persons nor facilitate any technology transfer. That has long been the stated goal of the Thai government across several ministries for non-Thai IT involvement.

 

As long as the digital nomad remains the lone wolf remote worker, don't expect any time soon for MoFA or IMM or Labour to create any special provisions for the DN. They are quite content for now to let them get as many Tourist visas as they can under the present 60/30 regime.

[donnacha]

49 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

Funny, I should have thought that a SW engineer with the great skills that you attribute to digital nomads would have been able to find all the information he needs with some search on the internet and in previous similar posts on this forum.

Who said anything about "great skills"?

What I said, right there in the exact line you quoted, was that digital nomads have "the necessary skills or education to work online".

That is no high bar but, clearly, that makes their success all the more maddening for chaps such as yourself who, sadly, lack even the ability to parse the English language ? 

Edited May 30, 2018 by donnacha

[donnacha]

16 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Au contraire I think they understand the concept quite well and what they understand is that the digital nomad as referenced above does not create jobs for Thai persons nor facilitate any technology transfer. That has long been the stated goal of the Thai government across several ministries for non-Thai IT involvement.

 

My observation, after two decades of watching Thai governments scrambling to pretend that they are doing anything at all to prepare their people for the future, is that they are still waiting for massive American corporations such as Microsoft to land their spaceships and save the economy for them. From a politician's perspective, this delusion makes perfect sense because it would be big enough to announce and get their smiling faces on the evening news, but it is an empty hope because the country simply does not have the basics in place.

On the ground, what I see is the far smaller, slower, unremarkable but entirely more real technology transfer that happens when a curious Thai guy starts attends a WordPress meetup and chats with a farang his own age who makes a good living from making plugins, or a Thai girl who begins to understand how her Swedish boyfriend makes money from drop-shipping and she starts to do it herself, or a Thai student in a coffee shop who sees all these farangs working and starts to wonder whether she might have a better option than just going to work for Bangkok Bank after graduation.

 

It does not match what the politicians need, but this grassroots cultural osmosis is the only form of technology transfer that is really suited to Thailand at this stage of their development, and they are certainly doing their best to lose that advantage to Vietnam, Cambodia and the Philippines. 
 

As long as the digital nomad remains the lone wolf remote worker, don't expect any time soon for MoFA or IMM or Labour to create any special provisions for the DN. They are quite content for now to let them get as many Tourist visas as they can under the present 60/30 regime.

 

Agreed. Things will continue as have been since the visa rules were tightened up after the coup. No "digital nomad visa" is going to materialize but, also, despite some the fevered imagings of some on this forum, there is going to be no crack-down on coworking spaces, you don't have to use a VPN, and you certainly don't have to "keep another browser window open so you can quickly switch over and say that you are just writing a letter to your mother" ? 

After the junta falls and the economy becomes a serious consideration again, some bright spark in the government might realize that they can unleash a handy new revenue stream by selling a 1-year Elite visa for 100,000 ($3,120) as an alternative to the 5-year one for 500,000 ($15,600), and formally state that remote working is acceptable under that. Most farangs working online would consider that to be a reasonable alternative to the disruption, expense, and uncertainty of the current arrangement.

[JLCrab]

42 minutes ago, donnacha said:

My observation, after two decades of watching Thai governments <snip>

Really -- watching from where? BTW the thing about writing a letter to your mother was humor as I don't expect any Thai authority will be raiding a shared work-space. 

 

(Link to BOI database search "software")

https://tinyurl.com/yaglsa59

 

But that new Elite Visa is a good idea -- with your 20 years' of observation you must have some high level input. If not you can go to the MoFA HQ in Bangkok and look for this:

Edited May 31, 2018 by JLCrab

[JLCrab]

OOPS ignore tiny URL above go here and search string "software":

 

http://www.boi.go.th/newboi/index.php?page=form_promoted_companies

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by JLCrab

[Happy Grumpy]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

The actual quote was;

"What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

 

No it wasn't, you purposefully left out the part that explains it:

 

"What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type B) visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

 

Pol. Col. of Immigration.

 

?

[JLCrab]

The above was not a direct quote from the Pol. Col -- from the article:

"Please remember also that Chiang Mai immigration officers merely enforce policy that is decided by politicians and at headquarters in Bangkok. ..."

"We hope the information below will be of help to our readers. It is true to the best of our knowledge and based on information given by immigration officers at the seminar and in subsequent interviews with CityNews."

 

However even if that was a direct quote, that is one official's opinion as regards his jurisdiction and not an official policy statement from the legal department (if there actually is one) of the Immigration Bureau HQ in Bangkok.

 

And the determining factor may not at some point be what you can do on a tourist visa, but on what basis one may continue to obtain tourist visas.

Edited May 31, 2018 by JLCrab

[Happy Grumpy]

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

on what basis one may continue to obtain tourist visas.

Why would remote workers only be on Tourist Visas?

 

Lots of people legally work remotely from Thailand while here to study full-time , be it a 4 year degree or Thai Language (Ed Visa), or to be with their spouse/kids (Non-O). Of the remote workers I know, none of them are here on Tourist Visas. All are fully legal, have their Thai Tax Number (TIN) and pay their tax to the Thai Revenue Department on the income that they bring to Thailand. ?

 

 

Lord only knows why this upsets so many of the Thai Visa Clueless, but I suspect it's because they're stuck working onsite for a Thai company while being legally obliged to jump through the Thai redtape because they're unfortunate enough to work for a Thai company, and come under the Alien Worker's Act. ?