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Moving to Thailand, working online - what do I do?


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Lots of the digital nomad types are on all sorts of visas including maybe missionaries but the majority of them most likely are on tourist visas. That was what the Pol. Col. in Chiang Mai you referenced above was discussing.

 

I am here on retirement extension of my original One-Year Multiple Entry 'B' visas. I received my first multiple entry visa to PR China around 1990 when to get one you needed a personal invitation from a Communist Party Official which I indeed had.

 

Thank you

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Edited by JLCrab
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4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The above was not a direct quote from the Pol. Col -- from the article:

"Please remember also that Chiang Mai immigration officers merely enforce policy that is decided by politicians and at headquarters in Bangkok. ..."

"We hope the information below will be of help to our readers. It is true to the best of our knowledge and based on information given by immigration officers at the seminar and in subsequent interviews with CityNews."

 

However even if that was a direct quote, that is one official's opinion as regards his jurisdiction and not an official policy statement from the legal department (if there actually is one) of the Immigration Bureau HQ in Bangkok.

 

And the determining factor may not at some point be what you can do on a tourist visa, but on what basis one may continue to obtain tourist visas.

 

"...and in subsequent interviews with CityNews ...'

 

Since when is City news an expert on this subject?

 

 

 

 

 

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wasn't the famous Immigration interviewee sacked, less than a month after giving the too often quoted interview?

 

And why all the interest in "work spaces.". Seems to be a place for wannabes and scammers ready to sell them numerous how to courses, but have little, if any, of their own skills and work to show.  I have been working online here, when in country, for twenty years.  Used plenty of internet shops, when needed, but also had great, cheap internet in my homes, when possible.  I executed 13 million THB in stock trades last year, not one Baht of it in a workspace.  How could that be better than your own kitchen, frig., and connection?  Why would you want to be on their radar?

Edited by moontang
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There was a link this topic to a work space portal. There were many positive reviews of various work spaces in Bangkok.  Many said: I spent a few days at ... I spent a few weeks at ... I spent a few months at.

 

None were from someone who spent years at although most of the work spaces haven't been around that long but it seems they attract people who are mostly short-term tourists who don't get the high speed lines that others might get in their long-term residence.

 

But this topic was started (remember?) by someone who wanted to come to Thailand and do online work for maybe 6+ months not someone on a Non-Imm O Visa with wife and kids or a 4-year ED-Visa student.

Edited by JLCrab
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Didn't they used to just call "Digital Nomads," simply " Visa Runners"?  If one just makes a good connection a requirement in a rental, the whole workspace thing is so silly.  Especially in places with a huge oversupply of rentals, let alone a distasteful roundup of interrogation by Immigration.  Might even be one of the very few places you should carry your passport.  

 

To the OP, many do this but discretion is best.  Don't even give them any ideas.  I am over 50...,the only occupation I ever state is "retired .". Even if I worked for Exxon half the year. ..once I enter LOS, retired, period.

 

 

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Some people just don't like to sit at home alone all day working online or not. Others may find a perfect place for them but it does not have the required connection. And as someone said this topic, it seems the work spaces are mostly set up for Thai persons and not just the non-Thai worker.

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sure, it is great to get out, but why not just go to one of thousands WI-FI places, that don't indicate they are a place for "work"?  Places where people aren't staring at their phones are  the exception.

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6 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

"What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type B) visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

 

Pol. Col. of Immigration.

Unfortunately, a Police Colonel of the Immigration Department has nothing to do with the MOL or DOE, nor does he necessarily know the relevant laws, contrary to popular belief, immigration do not have anything to do with the labour laws.

Can you show us a statement from a very senior official of the MOL that states this?

Just because a person is declaring income and paying Thai income taxes does not in anyway, shape or form make it legal for a foreigner to work in Thailand, any more than it would in most other countries.

 

Right now I reckon they are tolerating DN's etc. however, that still doesn't make it legal, the issue is there isn't any area right now that DN's fit in to in the current framework.

 

What I can say with 100% certainty is to work in Thailand as a foreigner (aside from a few specialist or diplomatic types) then you need a work permit and to get that work permit, you must work for a Thai entity or a registered foreign company's representative office and satisfy the MOL requirements depending on the type of company, registration etc. etc. 

Once that is achieved, then you pay social security and are covered by the labour laws and so on.

 

Basically, carry on with the DN stuff, just do not assume it is legal coz some fairly lowly Immigration officer thinks it is!

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keep ur mouth shut, dont post on forums ur working as a digital nomad..
Why ? He is not breaking any laws. I did not keep my mouth shut and been working remotely for 7 years. But I do pay my taxes in my home country and the money are transfered to my home bank account so does not nvolve Thailand. Except I spend my money here.

You got nothing to worry about as long as your visa to stay here is valid.
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27 minutes ago, moontang said:

sure, it is great to get out, but why not just go to one of thousands WI-FI places, that don't indicate they are a place for "work"?  Places where people aren't staring at their phones are  the exception.

I did that for many years at internet shops full of kids screaming while playing video games.

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If your'e over 50, apply for a visa based on retirement, then you have a 1 year visa and just leave the country when you want with a re-entry stamp. Cheaper and more safe.

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6 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I did that for many years at internet shops full of kids screaming while playing video games.

I bought a house in the States from an internet cafe in Chiang Rai, across from a tech school.  No 90 Baht coffees in there...just noisy after school, but very nice during the day.  Now, a list of laws on minors in internet shops, make it even more peaceful.

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4 minutes ago, balo said:

If your'e over 50, apply for a visa based on retirement, then you have a 1 year visa and just leave the country when you want with a re-entry stamp. Cheaper and more safe.

for sure, but as stated, always say "retired."

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2 minutes ago, moontang said:

I bought a house in the States from an internet cafe in Chiang Rai, across from a tech school.  No 90 Baht coffees in there...just noisy after school, but very nice during the day.  Now, a list of laws on minors in internet shops, make it even more peaceful.

Wow is that the same place you did your 13 million THB in stock trades?

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12 hours ago, elviajero said:

No one has tried because it’s not possible. If it was there would be evidence/reports all over the internet.

 

No “freelance” foreigner can walk into any labour office and get work permit without the backing of a Thai based business who are taking them on as an employee or consultant.

 

32 minutes ago, Mattd said:

 

What I can say with 100% certainty is to work in Thailand as a foreigner (aside from a few specialist or diplomatic types) then you need a work permit and to get that work permit, you must work for a Thai entity or a registered foreign company's representative office and satisfy the MOL requirements depending on the type of company, registration etc. etc. 

Once that is achieved, then you pay social security and are covered by the labour laws and so on.

 

Congratulations guys, you're finally starting to understand Thai Labor Law.

 

Remote workers working remotely for non-Thai companies or companies in Thailand don't come under the Alien Worker's Act, as they are not legally considered to be 'Working in Thailand'. They are legally considered to be working remotely while here.

 

Work for a Thai company or enterprise, or company/enterprise in Thailand, or off-line and on-site and you then fall under the Alien's Worker's Act and are legally considered as working here and need all that Work Permit nonsense.

 

 

 

Congratulations for starting to understand. ?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

No it wasn't, you purposefully left out the part that explains it:

Of course I did; because the first sentence was irrelevant to the discussion. The immigration act differentiates between working for a Thai employer and working at any other occupation.

 

7 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Pol. Col. of Immigration.

You are assuming the person you’re attributing the quote to was the Pol Col, however, the person that is being quoted was not identified. And the “Pol. Col.” is an immigration Pol Col. not the “Pol. Col. of Immigration.”

 

You don’t seem to understand that allowing foreigners to work at their online businesses doesn’t make it legal, The authorities are simply not enforcing the law for the reasons I’ve explained.

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1 minute ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Remote workers working remotely for non-Thai companies or companies in Thailand don't come under the Alien Worker's Act, as they are not legally considered to be 'Working in Thailand'. They are legally considered to be working remotely while here.

Absolute and utter nonsense, where on earth did you get that from!!

 

The Working of Aliens Act is actually very clear on the subject - Section 5. "Alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality; "Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;

 

All Aliens, as they like to refer to us, that are in Thailand on a temporary basis or PR basis are subject to this act, including DN's, whether the act is enforced is a completely different argument, however, it could well be enforced as and when it suits, I personally know of people that were arrested and deported for literally things as simple as making a cup of tea in a bar when the bar was closed, if they want you out, then they will, for arguments sake, if a Thai SW engineer felt he was being unfairly disadvantaged and complained to the right authorities, then there is every possibility that action would be taken, Section 5 gives them the reason, it is all encompassing.

You would find it almost impossible to deny that sitting at a computer and writing code or whatever for an overseas company isn't working, as it is going to be considered as such under this act.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Wow is that the same place you did your 13 million THB in stock trades?

no those were made on a 500 per month sinet connection in the condo I bought with the profit I made on the house.  I see 3BB offering a 250 THB per month service in BKK..but then you would miss out on meeting negative worth visa runners eating veggie croissants and figuring out the minibus schedule to Vientiane.

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On 5/30/2018 at 7:49 AM, jackdd said:

You call 750 USD per month a modest fee? With 2 years Iglu you could buy 5 years thai elite visa

Its income tax and social insurance on 2k a month.. When your a resident you liable to pay taxes income earned while you reside there. 

 

Yes thats a fairly low amount of income tax, and the margin for iglu is a very modest considering the legal and red carpet services it offers. 

Elite visa doesnt include your income tax, social insurance cost, medical cover, or legally allow you to work. I think the elite card is a great alternative for the younger high net worth retirees, I would buy one immediately if I was no longer married. 

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On 5/30/2018 at 10:05 AM, ExpatDraco said:

 

Yeah, that's steep. Especially if you don't need/use their co-working spaces.

 

Any alternative umbrella company you know?

 

Thats an unfair miss representation.. That isnt iglus fees, thats the cost INCLUSIVE of your income tax and social insurance costs. 

Shock horror, being a productive citizen and working somewhere means paying income tax on money made while working there !! 

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6 minutes ago, moontang said:

no those were made on a 500 per month sinet connection in the condo I bought with the profit I made on the house.  I see 3BB offering a 250 THB per month service in BKK..but then you would miss out on meeting negative worth visa runners eating veggie croissants and figuring out the minibus schedule to Vientiane.

No I don;t miss out because I know where the visa vans stop in Isaan their way to Vientiane -- then I go back to my house where I have 3BB and I buy and sell oil tanker cargoes on the high seas after they leave port and before they arrive at the unloading terminal.

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7 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

No it wasn't, you purposefully left out the part that explains it:

 

"What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type B) visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

 

Pol. Col. of Immigration.

 

?

Now instead of asking people not involved with policing work.. Lets see the comment from someone at the dept of labour or the employment office.. Asking immigration about labour law is a case of "we are not concerned with that".

 

Oh yeah.. When the correct people have been asked they have said exactly what they define work as, including uploading blog posts, youtube videos, and online work that has no Thai customers. 

There is no real mystery here, only people who pretend there is because they wish to avoid paying taxes, registering, and doing the right legal thing. The lack of enforcement partly due to the fear of damaging a tourist industry, means abuse of this law is common. That doesnt change the law. 


 

 

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/is-uploading-videos-to-youtube-considered-work
 

if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand.

Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO).

 

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-business-visa-to-work-online

 

Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.

Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

 

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

 

Congratulations guys, you're finally starting to understand Thai Labor Law.

 

Remote workers working remotely for non-Thai companies or companies in Thailand don't come under the Alien Worker's Act, as they are not legally considered to be 'Working in Thailand'. They are legally considered to be working remotely while here.

 

 

Clearly thats not what the employment office and labour department has stated. 

I thought the whole "my mate Nate" kerfuffle silenced all that nonsense.. When it was clearly stated an online blogger must have a work permit. 

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3 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I thought the whole "my mate Nate" kerfuffle silenced all that nonsense

He was working 'onsite'. Going around to Thai train yards, Thai footpaths and markets and interviewing Thais and producing his work in Thailand.....

 

That's not remote work.

 

 

Jeez. 

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25 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

There is no real mystery here, only people who pretend there is because they wish to avoid paying taxes, registering, and doing the right legal thing. The lack of enforcement partly due to the fear of damaging a tourist industry, means abuse of this law is common. That doesnt change the law. 

Absolutely correct, as I have stated, the law is very clear on this, those that do not think it is are in denial because they want to believe otherwise.

There seems to be some misconception that you are only working in Thailand if it is for a Thai company and on their premises, that is not correct, there are numerous instances in my field that I know of where specialist people have been bought in to repair equipment on a foreign flagged ship in port or dry dock in Thailand and each and every time a short term work permit had to be issued, that clause is also in the Alien Working Act.

You are allowed to conduct business meetings as a tourist, that is about where it ends.

The fact they are currently tolerating DN's is irrelevant.

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45 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Thats an unfair miss representation.. That isnt iglus fees, thats the cost INCLUSIVE of your income tax and social insurance costs. 

Shock horror, being a productive citizen and working somewhere means paying income tax on money made while working there !! 

 

I made the calculation and I'm fully aware the Iglu fee includes PIT etc... Their fee is substantial, especially if you don't use their co-working spaces. But I can't blame them.

 

So do you know of any Iglu competitors?

 

And please, spare me your sarcasm.

 

Edited by ExpatDraco
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1 hour ago, balo said:

Why ? He is not breaking any laws. 

Any work, without permission, while physically in Thailand is breaking the law.

 

Immigration act.

“Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :
1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned.”

 

Remote work is not on the exempt list, therefore, this law applies.

 

Deny reality all you want, but what you are doing is illegal even though it’s tolerated by the authorities; who sensibly do not enforce the law.

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31 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Seriously, what does digital nomad do in Thailand? The specific job that they do?

There is no specific area of expertise.

 

These are generally people, who can work remotely (using phone, email, communicators, videoconferencing and milions of domain-specific systems with web interfaces), are not required to do they work within the working hours of a specific timezone (or at least not all of it) and prefer to move around the world a bit, instead of dying slow and painful deaths inside office towers.

 

A lot of them will be in IT, as this is a fairly progressive sector and remote arrangements are becoming increasingly popular. But it really can be anything else, provided no direct interaction is required. A surgeon would most likely find it hard to become a digital nomad, as would a car mechanic.

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