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Moving to Thailand, working online - what do I do?


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4 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Goooooooooooooooooood Lordy.

 

You still don't know what working remotely for a non-Thai company/enterprise or company/enterprise in Thailand is lol. ?

And you still don't get the point!

 

According to you working for a foreign employer/business isn't working; therefore, there is nothing stopping someone opening up an office from where their foreign employees can carry out their work. And because they are not employed by a Thai company, and by your reckoning not working because their employer/business is offshore, they are exempt from the Immigration Act.

 

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4 minutes ago, elviajero said:

According to you working for a foreign employer/business isn't working; therefore, there is nothing stopping someone opening up an office from where their foreign employees can carry out their work. And because they are not employed by a Thai company, and by your reckoning not working because their employer/business is offshore, they are exempt from the Immigration Act.

 

Yes, you can do this. That's what happened with the chinese people in Ubon, the hotel was basically rented as an office and they worked there. Nobody found anything illegal there (besides missing TM30 reports for which the hotel was fined accordingly)

According to the written law it's illegal, but according to the law washing your own dishes is also illegal.

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25 minutes ago, Loaded said:

elviajero quoted my post in the above post so it looks as though those comments are mine, they're not, they're happy grumpy's comments. I posted because the guy is clearly a loon.

 

Could you change the quote from Loaded said to loony said?

Sorry, it's too late for me to edit the post. You seemed to be endorsing his comments.

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3 hours ago, balo said:

I have a problem with this story. 

 

Are you telling us that you worked online as a "digital nomad " for 21 years ? 

21 years ago , that was back in 1997 .  Sure we did have Internet , but doing remote jobs was not even on the agenda. 

 

And why would immigration care unless you had a business INSIDE Thailand?  

So did you have customers INSIDE Thailand ? 

Or was all of it OUTSIDE Thailand?  

  • No I'm a professional 'Software Architect' and have never worked "remotely" for anyone.
  • Immigration, in most cases, don't really care as proven by their tolerance of online work.
  • I have only had Thai customers since forming a Thai company.

 

3 hours ago, balo said:

Big difference, you are also mentioning  you hired people INSIDE Thailand?   

That's not a part of a digital nomad life. 

"Digital Nomad" is a BS term to describe people making their living from online work outside of their home country. They are simply self employed workers. My Thai based employees all rely on the ability to work online to be able to live in Thailand and make their living. They could be classed as "digital nomads", but as qualified professional software engineers they have the choice of being employed on large salaries.

 

I think you are missing the point. It is being claimed that working online for a non-Thai based business etc. exempts someone from Immigration Law; it doesn't. Two of my foreign employees are fully legal and employed in Thailand. Two others are employed by my UK company and work in Thailand "illegally". The two UK employees work from their Thai homes and never go near my Thai office because that changes the way the authorities would view them and my Thai company. The fact that the UK employees cannot work in my Thai office without permission proves that the location of their legal employer is irrelevant.

 

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I see Elviajero avoided answering my last reply to his post. 

 

What" online" work did youdo in Thailand in 1998 ? That did not involve a Thai business ?

 

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1 minute ago, elviajero said:

"Digital Nomad" is a BS term to describe people making their living from online work outside of their home country. They are simply self employed workers

?

 

The fact that you don't know how clueless you are is hilarious. ?

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55 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Yes, you can do this. That's what happened with the chinese people in Ubon, the hotel was basically rented as an office and they worked there. Nobody found anything illegal there (besides missing TM30 reports for which the hotel was fined accordingly)

I don't know this case, but working in a hotel room is not the same as renting an office space and running a foreign owned business.

 

56 minutes ago, jackdd said:

According to the written law it's illegal, but according to the law washing your own dishes is also illegal.

Washing your own dishes is not illegal. Working for your own dish washing business, or being employed as a dishwasher would be illegal, without permission.

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Ok I got it now.

You worked as a software architect in 1998 and lived in Thailand and had your customers in Thailand and business in Thailand. No wonder Thai officials had a problem with that .

 

In 1998 I was creating web pages using simple software like Frontpage. In my home country. In those days you did not work online , except sending e-mails and files. 

 

If I had a customer we needed to meet face to face , meetings were never remote in those days. 

When I sent my customer an invoice, the money was paid into my Norwegian bank account and I paid my taxes as I always do 

 

So what is the difference between 1998 and 2018 ? 

Not much really. 

I still invoice my customers in Eurooe, I still get paid money into my Norwegian bank account, I still pay my taxes in my home country..

 

The only difference is I'm allowed to travel anywhere in the world and still take care of my clients. They will not even know I'm in Thailand and they do not care. 

If I need a face to face meeting I fly over or if I need to organize something I can fly out tomorrow. 

 

Thailand got nothing to do with my Norwegian business , very simple really.

 

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4 minutes ago, balo said:

I see Elviajero avoided answering my last reply to his post. 

 

What" online" work did youdo in Thailand in 1998 ? That did not involve a Thai business ?

I see you can't read.

 

What I was doing in 1998 is irrelevant. However, initially my work, which started as a hobby, was not reliant on the internet, I wasn't working for anyone "online" or otherwise, and I didn't have any Thai customers. At the point my work became a source of income was when it became illegal.

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1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

Maybe the guy runs one of those "You too can be a Digital Nomad in Paradise Thailand" blogs.

BINGO!  There is a large number of persons with a vested interest in selling the DN lifestyle, who stand to lose if the truth be known.  So, instead, the truth is simply labeled as "negativity."  And that would apply to the teachers, as well.  Sure, it is OK to work without a WP or the proper visa, and don't worry about not having a degree.....and they even have a four week course that has been replicated too many times, that they will gladly sell you, or a job placement, where they will take a big slice.  The online stores are mostly a farce, 99% of the vloggers are making less than 20 Baht per hour, and most of the SEO stuff is complete smoke and mirrors..yeah, you are smarter than thousands of employees at the largest tech companies on Earth.  Skilled software people can make money, but you can bet they have education and experience to back them up, however most app developers would have to pay people to use their app.  It has been covered extensively on Shark Tank, and Mark Cuban, not the coolest guy for certain, but highly successful and knowledgeable makes it clear about the app business; way too much supply.

Edited by moontang
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1 minute ago, balo said:

Ok I got it now.

You worked as a software architect in 1998 and lived in Thailand and had your customers in Thailand and business in Thailand. No wonder Thai officials had a problem with that .

No. Your assumptions are all wrong.

 

3 minutes ago, balo said:

In 1998 I was creating web pages using simple software like Frontpage. In my home country. In those days you did not work online , except sending e-mails and files. 

I didn't say I was working online.

 

5 minutes ago, balo said:

Thailand got nothing to do with my Norwegian business , very simple really.

Quite right. But Thailand has a say in who they allow in their country and the activities those visitors can do when in the country. Just because you can work anywhere doesn't mean you can work anywhere!

 

Again, Thailand clearly tolerate "online work" for the reasons I have explained. All that I and others are stressing is that tolerance of the activity does not make it legal. And I will keep correcting people that claim it is so that people that want to work online in Thailand know the facts and can make proper informed decisions.

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9 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No. Your assumptions are all wrong.

 

I didn't say I was working online.

 

Quite right. But Thailand has a say in who they allow in their country and the activities those visitors can do when in the country. Just because you can work anywhere doesn't mean you can work anywhere!

 

Again, Thailand clearly tolerate "online work" for the reasons I have explained. All that I and others are stressing is that tolerance of the activity does not make it legal. And I will keep correcting people that claim it is so that people that want to work online in Thailand know the facts and can make proper informed decisions.

Have you ever wondered why you spend countless hours on this site trying to prove you are right to people who question your views (and it really is numerous people)

 

It's because you can never prove what you say, you may be totally right about Digital Nomads but you can't prove it, along with your views on countless other subjects

 

A few months ago you commented on a thread when a guy asked if it was ok to teach English to schoolkids in his home, you advised him that it is totally ok to do this without a WP

 

Now you are saying somebody working from home for a non Thai company needs a WP?

 

Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds, a guy depriving a Thai national of a job teaching English doesn't need a WP however some guy sat in his own condo working online for a non thai company does

 

You must be able to see why people question you so much when you state such things?

 

 

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52 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I don't know this case, but working in a hotel room is not the same as renting an office space and running a foreign owned business.

Somebody rented this place and had 166 people working there on tourist visas, nothing illegal found

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From the above linked article:

 

They will leave when their visas expire.

 

So if you left when your visa expired and were repatriated back to China, you would be legal too.

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2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Washing your own dishes is not illegal. Working for your own dish washing business, or being employed as a dishwasher would be illegal, without permission.

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf

"Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits



Of course this definition is totally retarded (the word that has to be defined is used in the definition of itself), but somebody could use it so that when you wash your own dishes, drive your own car, or cook food for yourself you are working and that's illegal.

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2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

A few months ago you commented on a thread when a guy asked if it was ok to teach English to schoolkids in his home, you advised him that it is totally ok to do this without a WP

 

Helping out in the community you live in is not necessarily working. It may well be stopped by the authorities, but they couldn't prosecute without evidence that it was the persons occupation, or they were being employed (paid or unpaid).

 

Teaching English to a few kids for free in your home is not working by any definition.

 

2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Now you are saying somebody working from home for a non Thai company needs a WP?

No I'm not. I'm saying someone working at home is working illegally because they don't have permission to work at their occupation.

 

2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds, a guy depriving a Thai national of a job teaching English doesn't need a WP however some guy sat in his own condo working online for a non thai company does

How do you know a Thai is being derived a job? FYI virtually every job done by a foreigner in Thailand could be done by a Thai and yet the labour offices still give out work permits. 

 

Again. I'm not saying the guy working online in his condo needs a WP. I am saying, based on the Immigration Act, that his work is illegal without permission.

 

2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

It's because you can never prove what you say, you may be totally right about Digital Nomads but you can't prove it, along with your views on countless other subjects

I have nothing to prove. The law clearly says that engaging in any occupation OR employment requires permission. So if you haven't got permission, regardless of the occupation or employment, you are working illegally. 

 

It is up to those falsely claiming it's legal to prove it, which they can't. No one representing the Thai authorities has every publicly stated that working online is legal.

 

2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Have you ever wondered why you spend countless hours on this site trying to prove you are right to people who question your views (and it really is numerous people)

And numerous people agree with my views!

 

I don't post for your benefit. I post to ensure others get balance and all the facts when people like you spread misinformation.

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37 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Helping out in the community you live in is not necessarily working. It may well be stopped by the authorities, but they couldn't prosecute without evidence that it was the persons occupation, or they were being employed (paid or unpaid).

 

Teaching English to a few kids for free in your home is not working by any definition.

 

No I'm not. I'm saying someone working at home is working illegally because they don't have permission to work at their occupation.

 

How do you know a Thai is being derived a job? FYI virtually every job done by a foreigner in Thailand could be done by a Thai and yet the labour offices still give out work permits. 

 

Again. I'm not saying the guy working online in his condo needs a WP. I am saying, based on the Immigration Act, that his work is illegal without permission.

 

I have nothing to prove. The law clearly says that engaging in any occupation OR employment requires permission. So if you haven't got permission, regardless of the occupation or employment, you are working illegally. 

 

It is up to those falsely claiming it's legal to prove it, which they can't. No one representing the Thai authorities has every publicly stated that working online is legal.

 

And numerous people agree with my views!

 

I don't post for your benefit. I post to ensure others get balance and all the facts when people like you spread misinformation.

I really could tear you apart on everything you have written on that post but I just can't be bothered

 

The article about the Chinese being raided virtually disproves everything you have said about Digital Nomads but I dont expect you to admit you are wrong

 

I suggest you read that article, it might give you some insight about how the law or in that case lack of law actually works

 

From the article

 

"The tourists were in Thailand legally and despite it being known that each was paid for their online work there was nothing the Thais could do to arrest them or have them deported."

 

Are you still going to continue to insist that you are correct given that the authorities have admitted that they were not working illegally?

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23 hours ago, balo said:

 

These are outdated laws written before the digital age we're living in and are for people who come here looking for work in Thailand , not outside Thailand. I would not use that as an example , it will just lead to confusion .

 

We have several examples from Thai officials the last 2-3 years  commenting in the media that digital nomads can continue with what they do , as long as they have a valid visa.

 

You are one of the few posters in here that will not give up on this issue and I wonder why .  Does it bother you ? 

 

 

 

But none from the labour department or employment office.. 

 

I asked my car mechanic if I needed a root canal but he said arai na.. Apparently its ok.. 

The labour department have been 100% clear every time. Immigration is not to police labour law. 

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On 5/31/2018 at 12:22 PM, ExpatDraco said:

 

I made the calculation and I'm fully aware the Iglu fee includes PIT etc... Their fee is substantial, especially if you don't use their co-working spaces. But I can't blame them.

 

So do you know of any Iglu competitors?

 

And please, spare me your sarcasm.

 

All of the competitors must legally also pay the same fees.. Or are you asking for a 'fully legal' service that breaks the law and doesnt pay your income tax and social costs on your earnings ??

 

And yes there are multiple other BOI companies doing this.. Either google them or wait until they pop up in my facebook feed again.. 
 

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14 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

I really could tear you apart on everything you have written on that post but I just can't be bothered

 

The article about the Chinese being raided virtually disproves everything you have said about Digital Nomads but I dont expect you to admit you are wrong

 

I suggest you read that article, it might give you some insight about how the law or in that case lack of law actually works

 

From the article

 

"The tourists were in Thailand legally and despite it being known that each was paid for their online work there was nothing the Thais could do to arrest them or have them deported."

 

Are you still going to continue to insist that you are correct given that the authorities have admitted that they were not working illegally?

Jesus wept. 

 

Stock trading doesnt need a work permit.. Do you research anything when you spout this ?? 

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16 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Jesus wept. 

 

Stock trading doesnt need a work permit.. Do you research anything when you spout this ?? 

Yes of course I did, did you? 

 

Maybe one is not needed for personal stock trading but 166 people in the same building are obviously not doing personal stock trading are they?

 

They are obviously working for a company and it even states in the article that they were being paid for their work if they are being paid for their work then they are obviously being paid by a company, all 166 of them

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5 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

But none from the labour department or employment office.. 

 

I asked my car mechanic if I needed a root canal but he said arai na.. Apparently its ok.. 

The labour department have been 100% clear every time. Immigration is not to police labour law. 

The source for the article which i posted above regarding the chinese people: https://www.sanook.com/news/6366239/

Says that people from the labour department were also there, they didn't find anything illegal.

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10 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The source for the article which i posted above regarding the chinese people: https://www.sanook.com/news/6366239/

Says that people from the labour department were also there, they didn't find anything illegal.

According to Thai Rath, a Thai newspaper and not a gossip forum,

 

"... Fines totaling 265,000 baht or 1,600 baht per person are being paid before the stock traders will be repatriated back to China, reported Thai Rath. "

 

https://www.thairath.co.th/content/1277496

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1 hour ago, jackdd said:
4 hours ago, elviajero said:

Washing your own dishes is not illegal. Working for your own dish washing business, or being employed as a dishwasher would be illegal, without permission.

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf

 

Quote

"Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits

 

Of course this definition is totally retarded (the word that has to be defined is used in the definition of itself), but somebody could use it so that when you wash your own dishes, drive your own car, or cook food for yourself you are working and that's illegal.

OMG, not this again!

 

The definition is not retarded when you understand its use and purpose. The definition is specific to the act that governs the employment of foreigners. It is worded that way to stop employers avoiding the need for a WP by claiming the foreigner is an "unpaid consultant" or similar.

 

You cannot apply that definition outside of that act to everyday activities. That would be absurd.

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On 5/28/2018 at 4:05 PM, impulse said:

like ED visas for people who never bother with going to classes?   They worked like a charm for decades, until one day they didn't.

They still work, I'm on ED visa right now and don't attend, my school is happy about it, gave me a 33% discount in fact. Granted I'm not African, the recent 'crackdowns' pretty much exclusively targeted them. 

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Just now, jspill said:

They still work, I'm on ED visa right now and don't attend, my school is happy about it, gave me a 33% discount in fact. Granted I'm not African, the recent 'crackdowns' pretty much exclusively targeted them. 

And that's why there are crackdowns, because people openly admit on a public forum that they are not attending classes

 

Well done

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2 minutes ago, jspill said:

They still work, I'm on ED visa right now and don't attend, my school is happy about it, gave me a 33% discount in fact. Granted I'm not African, the recent 'crackdowns' pretty much exclusively targeted them. 

Is it that self defence BS non-imm ED in Chiang Mai run by a military officer?

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