Keto and Back

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Let me be clear, I am speaking primarily about fasting studies but since the mechanism that causes increased hGH during fasting is the induced ketogenic state, I am speaking of ketogenic diets as well.

 

Probably the single most important distinction between (non-keto) calorie-restricted diets and diets that produce ketone bodies is with regard to resultant changes in Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR). 

 

The main reason why most (non-keto) caloric restriction diets do not work in the long-term is that the body's first response to caloric restriction is to reduce BMR.  It does this because a lower BMR reduces the calories needed to maintain homeostasis.  The body's prime directive is first and foremost, to always to maintain homeostatic state 

 

So, even though you have reduced your caloric intake, the body's need for calories has now been reduced to match the intake.  The net result is that you loose little if any fat.

 

Under this circumstance it's entirely possible to even GAIN fat!  When a person goes on a severe calorie-restricted diet and gets frustrated after several days because they see no significant weight drop, they resume eating.  Since their BMR is now in a reduced state, even if they resume eating the same calories they were eating before they started their diet (most will binge and eat even more than usual), they will now actually gain weight because the calories consumed are now in excess of what the body needs at the lowered BMR!  That is the classic outcome of most calorie-restricted diets; the person ends up fatter than when they started the diet.

 

Anyway, to your question about the science-based link between growth hormone and fasting, and research that substantiates it, here are a few examples:

 

In 1982, Kerndt et al published a study of a single patient who decided to undergo a 40-day fast for religious purposes. Their assumption was, that as ketone levels rise they replace glucose as the primary energy source in the central nervous system, thereby decreasing the need for gluconeogenesis and sparing protein catabolism. Their study showed several hormonal changes occur during fasting, including a fall in insulin and T(3) levels and a rise in glucagon and reverse T(3) levels.  It also showed hGH went from at 0.73 (pre-fast) to a peaks of 9.86 at 36 hours into the fast.  That is a 1,250% increase.

 

Other studies have shown the same increase in growth hormone.  Hartman et al also showed a 5 fold increase in HGH in response to a 2 day fast in their published study, "Augmented growth hormone (GH) secretory burst frequency and amplitude mediate enhanced GH secretion during a two-day fast in normal men."

 

In 1988, Ho KY et al also studied fasting and HGH and published a report, "Fasting Enhances Growth Hormone Secretion and Amplifies the Complex Rhythms of Growth Hormone Secretion in Man" .  Snapshot form the study:

 

Some people claim that fasting a single day causes loss of ¼ pound of muscle. Studies now prove that this does not occur.  In fact, the opposite can happen. In comparing caloric reduction diets to fasting, the fasting was 4 times better at preserving lean mass!  See Catenacci et al.

 

I'm just scratching the surface.  Numerous studies support that the concept that BMR is raised (or t least maintained at a functional rate) during ketogenesis partly through increased release of hGH.  And the release is significant enough to have significant muscle sparing properties.

 

 

I could care less about the muscle sparing effect, weight lifting counters all that. I was more interested in the BMR rate, because as you say it lowers itself. 

 

I would love to see a study that shows that keto does not lower the BMR or even increases it. I read somewhere that you burn an extra 400 calories because the body has to convert fat to glucogen for the brain. Now that would be a game changer. 

 

However many studies see no difference between weight loss for people who go keto and regular diets. (if you filter out the studies where they take obese people who obviously have metabolic problems). So I am still not convinced about that part. 

 

Because if it were true then all studies would have to show massive more weight loss on keto while many show some more weight loss but not as massive as it would have to be given the numbers. Because 400 calories over a year is huge.

 

Also leptin signals the downgrade of the metabolic rate based on fat percentage (we got a fat setpoint). I don't understand how leptin's response would be any different to keto vs non keto on shrinking fat supply.

 

Also i found this study of a totally controlled study (so in an labratory no outside food keto vs carb) had no difference at all. This is a gold standard study as it was done in house so no self reporting nothing. Only thing could be said it was short but in house experiments cost a lot of money.

I would love to see them do it for 3 or 6 months to finally settle the debate.

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/21/17036004/do-low-carb-diets-work

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Good you are making progress, but still seems like you are still eating a load of carbs/sugar (muesli, milk, fruit, peanut butter, crackers). 

And it still works for him, proof that all diets work. The most important thing of a diet is not if its the most efficient its if the person can keep it up indefinitely or finds it too restrictive and gives up.

 

That is my opinion anyway.

[robblok]

20 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I just noticed mine have expiration date of 2015.  You might be right and normallyI wouldn't be concerned if it was just a few months but over 4 years...Hmmm???

 

I am doing a biohack sort of study on fasting so I really want accuracy in the readings.

 

Even so, I started the fast on Tuesday so I'm already into day 3 and the strips seem to be valid, but just would be nice to have fresh ones before end of fast to compare expired ones with fresh ones to have an accurate baseline.

 

Would you mind asking your GF is she knows?

I asked she has no clue, but she is the person that throws away medicine if over date. I had some perfectly fine cerebex (for if i have strained myself) and it was over date.. i used it and it still worked. 

 

I think often (not always) dates are put there so old stock gets cleared out and sure some medicine might work less over time. It might degrade. So I can't be absolutely sure. 

 

Personally for strips I would not worry.. but your a lot like me wants to do things 100% so try to find them and then compare.

[FracturedRabbit]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

And it still works for him, proof that all diets work. The most important thing of a diet is not if its the most efficient its if the person can keep it up indefinitely or finds it too restrictive and gives up.

 

That is my opinion anyway.

If you are so insulin resistant that you need to supplement with insulin, then you have a serious problem which needs serious action.  Maybe committing to even more carb restriction until his metabolism is fixed would  be sensible?

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said:

If you are so insulin resistant that you need to supplement with insulin, then you have a serious problem which needs serious action.  Maybe committing to even more carb restriction until his metabolism is fixed would  be sensible?

100% agreed, i missed that part my mistake. Someone who needs to supplement with insulin should always be low carb. Totally my mistake. 

[ThaiBunny]

55 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Good you are making progress, but still seems like you are still eating a load of carbs/sugar (muesli, milk, fruit, peanut butter, crackers). 

I focus on calories not carbs using the "FatSecret" App but its measurements for that diet yesterday were "40.95 Fat; 85.31 Carbs; 37.34 Protein; 803 calories". The Blood Sugar Diet recommendation is 800 calories and a full fat rather than reduced fat dairy diet. Interestingly almost half my carbs come from the muesli (with dates, raisins & almonds) which is only 1/2 cup.  Being a completely lazy person with zero interest in cooking food I can't stir myself to find a substitute that requires as little effort as muesli. Scrambled eggs would give be a much better carbs outcome but frankly ...

 

I'm not sure where you buy your crackers but my water crackers contain 4/5 of 5/8 of SFA sugar, protein, fat or carbs

[FracturedRabbit]

18 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

I focus on calories not carbs using the "FatSecret" App but its measurements for that diet yesterday were "40.95 Fat; 85.31 Carbs; 37.34 Protein; 803 calories". The Blood Sugar Diet recommendation is 800 calories and a full fat rather than reduced fat dairy diet. Interestingly almost half my carbs come from the muesli (with dates, raisins & almonds) which is only 1/2 cup.  Being a completely lazy person with zero interest in cooking food I can't stir myself to find a substitute that requires as little effort as muesli. Scrambled eggs would give be a much better carbs outcome but frankly ...

 

I'm not sure where you buy your crackers but my water crackers contain 4/5 of 5/8 of SFA sugar, protein, fat or carbs

Focusing on calories will not resolve your diabetes. 500 calories of cake and is processed completely differently by your body compared to, say, 500 calories of avocado. Good luck to you.

I don't buy crackers but here is the breakdown for Carr's.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I would love to see a study that shows that keto does not lower the BMR or even increases it.

I should clarify what I meant because the way I put it might be misleading.  I am saying that BMR is relatively high and significantly higher in fasting or Keto compared to calorie restricted dieting (supported by the Catenacci study below).  

 

I also forgot to mention that noradrenalin also rises along with GH, and together they keep metabolism high, and this will not happen during a typical calorie-restricted diet.

 

Basically, fasting and ketogenic diets trigger numerous hormonal adaptations that do NOT happen with simple caloric reduction. Insulin drops precipitously, helping prevent insulin resistance. Growth hormone and noradrenalin rises, keeping metabolism high and maintaining lean mass.

 

In one study of resting energy expenditure during fasting by Zauder et al, "Resting energy expenditure in short-term starvation is increased as a result of an increase in serum norepinephrine"  resting energy expenditure (REE) were seen to increase by 12% as well as VO2 during four days of fasting.

 

 

The Catenacci study I referred to compared zero-calorie fasting and daily caloric restriction.  If you look at the change in Resting Metabolic Rate (RMR) in the calorie-restriction diet (CRaP), basal metabolism dropped by 76 calories per day. Using fasting, it only dropped 29 calories per day (which is not statistically significant compared to baseline). In other words, daily caloric reduction causes almost 2 1/2 times as much metabolic slowdown as fasting. 

 

 

These studies make it pretty clear that resting metabolic rate and resting energy expenditure are not significantly impacted in a negative way by ketogenic diets, and especially by fasting (once keto-adaptation has occurred), whereas they are significantly effected i a negative way by a calorie-restriction diet. 

 

Also if you look at this graph from  Dr. Kevin Hall landmark book “Comparative Physiology of Fasting, Starvation, and Food Limitation” it's clear that ketone bodies are providing ample fuel during fasting (and a ketogenic diet to a slightly lesser extent) to effectively maintain metabolism after several days of becoming keto-adapted, and that protein oxidation does not change appreciably.

 

 

So, in essence, Keto and fasting allow the body to survive on lower calories without also lowering metabolism whereas calorie-restricted diets will cause significant metabolic slowdown.

 

 

[robblok]

@wavehunter

 

I send you a book that shows me why i think all diets will switch down your metabolic rate. Reason is leptin. Leptin signals the brain how much bodyfat you have. If you come below a point that the body likes it lowers your MBR. I don't see how it would be different on keto then other diets.

 

We are not talking about fasting here but long term diets where bodyfat slowly decreases.

[ThaiBunny]

1 hour ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Focusing on calories will not resolve your diabetes.

Thanks but I prefer Dr Michael Mosley's advice

[WaveHunter]

.

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Firstly, fasting and longer term ketogenic diets basically have the same effect on metabolism; only the degree will vary, and if carbs are low enough on a keto diet, the degree will almost be the same.  Therefore, the studies on fasting are highly applicable to keto dieting as well.

 

Regarding leptin, I think you are misunderstanding how it works, especially with a keto diet.

 

Normally, Leptin is released from fat cells as they enlarge during a meal and its main function is to signal the brain that we are satisfied and no longer need food.

 

I think one element you are missing is this:  Leptin works in concert with insulin in a negative feedback loop; not all by itself.

 

The way it works is that when you eat, insulin is produced which causes excess energy derived from food to be stored as body fat.  This causes the fat cells to release leptin, which signal our brain that we have enough food and so we stop eating.  This causes insulin go back to baseline.

 

Since both leptin and insulin are part of the same negative feedback loop, one does not change without making the other change as well. (unless leptin and/or insulin receptors have become resistant).

 

In a ketogenic diet (unlike a non-keto calorie-restricted diet) insulin levels will always be very low since carbs will be low.  If insulin is low, leptin will also be low, and neither will have any effect on metabolic rate.  Of course, on a non-keto calorie-restricted diet, the story will be entirely different, and not in a good way at all!

Unless you think you know better than Lyle Mc Donald about leptin then I think your mistaken. You have not checked your messages. I send you an ebook of him with page reference where he explains how leptin works with fat levels. Below the same explanation from a different source.

 

So it seems I am correct, so how do you think Keto goes around this biological certainty ? I think keto can't work around it just like other diets. You told me yourself the last little bit of fat is hardest to lose everyone knows it. This is why.l

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/leptin-101#leptin

 

Quote

The fat cells use leptin to tell your brain how much body fat they carry. High levels of leptin tell your brain that you have plenty of fat stored, while low levels tell your brain that fat stores are low and that you need to eat (9).

 

 

[WaveHunter]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Unless you think you know better than Lyle Mc Donald about leptin then I think your mistaken. You have not checked your messages. I send you an ebook of him with page reference where he explains how leptin works with fat levels. Below the same explanation from a different source.

 

So it seems I am correct, so how do you think Keto goes around this biological certainty ? I think keto can't work around it just like other diets. You told me yourself the last little bit of fat is hardest to lose everyone knows it. This is why.l

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/leptin-101#leptin

 

 

 

From what I remember from McDonald is he talks about leptin resistance.  You do appreciate that leptin resistance puts a completely different spin on this topic, yes?  We're not discussing leptin resistance.

 

Furthermore, assuming there is no resistance, leptin does not work by itself but is part of a negative feedback loop with insulin.  In keto dieting (or fasting), insulin levels are not problematic with respect to metabolic rate since it levels stay low and stable, and therefore, neither should  leptin play any role whatsoever after keto-adaptation has occurred. 

 

Bottom line, for whatever reason, the studies I provided are science-based proof (not conjecture) that metabolic rate is not negatively impacted in a ketogenic state, and certain ways s optimized.  You certainly can not say that about any non-keto calorie-restricted diet.  Show me some science-based proof that is not so if you feel otherwise.

 

Meanwhile, I'm running my own experiment on fasting and am into my 3rd day.  I feel like sh*t LOL!!!  However, that that is to be expected since my body is still struggling with the production of ketone bodies and I still have another day or so to go before glycogen stores are totally depleted.

 

I'm not looking forward to the next 24 hours, but afterwards I expect to feel my metabolism start to ramp up.  That is what is supposed to happen so...we'll see.  To me, that's going to be the real acid test. ????  

 

 

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

From what I remember from McDonald is he talks about leptin resistance.  You do appreciate that leptin resistance puts a completely different spin on this topic, yes?  We're not discussing leptin resistance.

 

Furthermore, assuming there is no resistance, leptin does not work by itself but is part of a negative feedback loop with insulin.  In keto dieting (or fasting), insulin levels are not problematic with respect to metabolic rate since it levels stay low and stable, and therefore, neither should  leptin play any role whatsoever after keto-adaptation has occurred. 

 

Bottom line, for whatever reason, the studies I provided are science-based proof (not conjecture) that metabolic rate is not negatively impacted in a ketogenic state, and certain ways s optimized.  You certainly can not say that about any non-keto calorie-restricted diet.  Show me some science-based proof that is not so if you feel otherwise.

 

Meanwhile, I'm running my own experiment on fasting and am into my 3rd day.  I feel like sh*t LOL!!!  However, that that is to be expected since my body is still struggling with the production of ketone bodies and I still have another day or so to go before glycogen stores are totally depleted.

 

I'm not looking forward to the next 24 hours, but afterwards I expect to feel my metabolism start to ramp up.  That is what is supposed to happen so...we'll see.  To me, that's going to be the real acid test. ????  

 

 

We are NOT discussing leptin resistance. We are talking about leptin signalling how much bodyfat you have stored and adjusting your appetite and BMR to cope with low bodyfat. This has nothing to do with insulin. The article is about leptin resistance but I am talking about leptin signaling the brain that our bodyfat is getting too low. That is mentioned in that article too and in Lyle Mc Donalds article. 

 

I guess its not really a problem unless you get to say sub 15% or so (or if your body has an other set point). But point being that keto also does not help with that. 

 

I showed you evidence of a experiment in a lab for 30 days with keto and non keto and the both lost the same amount of fat (wish it was longer). Controlled lab experiments with test subjects living there is the gold standard. So its a pretty good test (downside is that it was too short for some)

[WaveHunter]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

We are NOT discussing leptin resistance. We are talking about leptin signalling how much bodyfat you have stored and adjusting your appetite and BMR to cope with low bodyfat. This has nothing to do with insulin. The article is about leptin resistance but I am talking about leptin signaling the brain that our bodyfat is getting too low. That is mentioned in that article too and in Lyle Mc Donalds article. 

 

I guess its not really a problem unless you get to say sub 15% or so (or if your body has an other set point). But point being that keto also does not help with that. 

 

I showed you evidence of a experiment in a lab for 30 days with keto and non keto and the both lost the same amount of fat (wish it was longer). Controlled lab experiments with test subjects living there is the gold standard. So its a pretty good test (downside is that it was too short for some)

I don' think you understand; if you are talking about leptin, you are also talking about insulin.  The two are intimately connected!  You can't discuss one without the other.  They are both part of feedback loop and effect each other.

 

I make a big deal about this because insulin response is critical in how the body handles excess energy from food, and by association so is leptin.   

 

And I will say it again; In keto dieting (or fasting), insulin levels are always low and relatively stable since carbs are low.  Therefore, leptin behaves the same way.  Both are a non-factor with regard to metabolic rate on a keto diet. 

 

Conversely, both ARE are huge negative factor in a non-keto diet that involves large changes in insulin and leptin levels.  Don't you agree?  I mean, don't you acknowledge that on a calorie-restricted diet, metabolism will slow down, or do you believe that does not actually happen?

[FracturedRabbit]

I am starting a poll to guess on which page of this thread WaveHunter and Robblok will agree on something. Place your bets!

[robblok]

13 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

I am starting a poll to guess on which page of this thread WaveHunter and Robblok will agree on something. Place your bets!

We agree on most major things:

- Low carb is good for people who are obese and have metabolic problems

- Low carb is good for people who are diabetic

- Low carb is good for endurance athlethes

 

I just don't agree that its magical and has metabolic advantages as a higher BMR as i seen in house (so people locked in an labratory) studies that show no difference in fat loss between high carb and low carb. 

 

However I seen tests that show more fat loss but then its usually when they used test subjects that had metabolic problems real obese people. But for people who are not obese and have no problems there is no advantage at all. (fat loss wise).

 

I also don't believe that low carb is so magical it overcomes the leptin problem (leptin signaling that bodyfat is low and slowing metabolic rate down).

 

But it keeps the discussion interesting. It would be nice if they could do some in house tests for longer then a month say 6 months. Too bad that is so expensive that it probably won't be done. But that would settle the debate once and for all. I trust only in house tests because those are the gold standard of test most reliable. 

[robblok]

16 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I don' think you understand; if you are talking about leptin, you are also talking about insulin.  The two are intimately connected!  You can't discuss one without the other.  They are both part of feedback loop and effect each other.

 

I make a big deal about this because insulin response is critical in how the body handles excess energy from food, and by association so is leptin.   

 

And I will say it again; In keto dieting (or fasting), insulin levels are always low and relatively stable since carbs are low.  Therefore, leptin behaves the same way.  Both are a non-factor with regard to metabolic rate on a keto diet. 

 

Conversely, both ARE are huge negative factor in a non-keto diet that involves large changes in insulin and leptin levels.  Don't you agree?  I mean, don't you acknowledge that on a calorie-restricted diet, metabolism will slow down, or do you believe that does not actually happen?

Again I trust Lyle Mc Donald over you any day as  he is far more knowledgeable. I send you his book with page reference and you just ignore it.

 

Leptin has a signalling function about how much bodyfat there is it signals this to the brain (no insulin needed to give that signal). There are leptin receptors that control appetite and metabolic rate (according to Lyle Mc Donald).

 

He actually says that taking carbs can help counter the problems leptin causes while on a diet can be countered with taking carbs. 

 

Your right they are inter connected but the whole signaling is done by leptin, the changes are made by leptin.

 

Quote

 More accurately, leptin is an anti-starvation hormone, 

that tells your brain and body how and when to adapt in the face of reduced calories or 
increased activity (12).  Anything that causes you to burn more calories than you’re
eating makes leptin go down, telling your brain and body what’s going on.

 

from Lyle Mc Donald.

 

 

In all calorie restricted diets your metabolism will slow down low carb too. I am living proof of this. I was high carb before and now low carb and guess what fat rate drops at the same speed. (great to have a scales with 5!! years of memory)

 

The only thing that is different is that i think i am far less hungry and low carb is easier (or at least right now)

[WaveHunter]

16 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

I am starting a poll to guess on which page of this thread WaveHunter and Robblok will agree on something. Place your bets!

LOL...you made me laugh ????  Robblok is a good guy; he strongly believes in his view, as I do in mine.  IMO, Nothing is more productive than two people with diametrically opposing views slugging it out.  Best way to learn when you’re exploring uncharted territory such as this topic I think.

 

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

We agree on most major things:

- Low carb is good for people who are obese and have metabolic problems

- Low carb is good for people who are diabetic

- Low carb is good for endurance athlethes

 

I just don't agree that its magical and has metabolic advantages as a higher BMR as i seen in house (so people locked in an labratory) studies that show no difference in fat loss between high carb and low carb. 

 

However I seen tests that show more fat loss but then its usually when they used test subjects that had metabolic problems real obese people. But for people who are not obese and have no problems there is no advantage at all. (fat loss wise).

 

I also don't believe that low carb is so magical it overcomes the leptin problem (leptin signaling that bodyfat is low and slowing metabolic rate down).

 

But it keeps the discussion interesting. It would be nice if they could do some in house tests for longer then a month say 6 months. Too bad that is so expensive that it probably won't be done. But that would settle the debate once and for all. I trust only in house tests because those are the gold standard of test most reliable. 

My perspective is “each to their own”.  I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind on keto vs non-keto; I’m simply sharing science-based information.    It’s up to the reader to interpret the facts and make up their own mind.

 

All I’m saying is you have to view the information with an open mind.  All of the revolutionary concepts that changed the world started out being ridiculed as total BS, yet we take them for granted as truth today.

 

Take the case of Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis.  Most people don’t know who he is but he is the doctor who discovered bacteria, disease and infection back in the mid-1800’s. He is considered the father of infection control today but back then was considered with ridicule for his beliefs, even though today, people can hardly imagine a doctor performing surgery...without washing hands beforehand!  Yet that was how it was back then!

 

Semmelweis observed that if the doctors washed their hands, the number of infections of puerperal fever could be reduced.

 

He was a young physician just out of medical school when he discovered this and was mocked for his “outrageous” views that doctors should wash their hands before surgery, by fellow doctors, but he could not prove his findings, because bacteria had not been discovered yet.

 

In 1870, Robert Koch proved that bacteria can cause disease. People such as Louis Pasteur proved what is known as the  germ theory of disease only after Semmelweis' death.

 

Science is full of examples like this.  What seem outrageous today is often proved as fact tomorrow.  

 

Twenty years ago the accepted treatment for diabetes type-2 was insulin injection, and Diabetes (Dt2) was considered an irreversible disease, and that certain people were simply predisposed to it.  In other words, the patient had no no way of avoiding the disease or any ability to cure it.

 

It’s only been during the last couple of years that science is proving that this is not an irreversible disease, and more importantly, that it is completely self-induced by poor nutrition!  Some will still argue this is false, but science strongly backs this viewpoint now.

 

Excessive carbohydrates are ABSOLUTELY the root cause of Diabetes Type-2.  Some still argue otherwise but science is increasingly in favor of this position.  

 

I think it’s important to realize that people are not born with Dt2; they acquire the condition.  So, the fact that a person might not have the condition today is no guarantee they won’t develop it tomorrow.

 

Nowhere is this fact more striking than with elite world class athletes who go on to develop Dt2 in later life.  There are MANY instances of this happening. 

 

Many of them took nutrition incredibly seriously since their performance depended on it, and the conventional wisdom for several decades has placed an emphasis on a carb rich diet and carb-loading for maximum performance.

 

The link between carbs and Dt2 became very clear with those athletes, who upon being diagnosed, switched to low carb diets.  In most cases, their insulin insensitivity quickly improved and they became symptom free WITHOUT meds!

 

The reason this is such a important topic is because insulin insensitivity and Dt2 IS reversible...but only within a certain window of time!  If the condition is allowed to progress to the point where hormonal receptors become destroyed, then the condition becomes irreversible!

 

So, I don’t know about anyone else, but my view is that it’s better to take pre-emptive action now and control carbs in my diet than wait for problems to develop.

 

How hard is that to do?  Not very hard at all.  Does it mean you have to take a hit on athletic performance but limiting carbs?  Not at all!  Science and anecdotal accounts of elite keto-adapted athletes (as well as my own person experience) is that you can have the same level of performance on a low carb diet as you can on a high carb diet for almost all physical activities...PROVIDED YOU HAVE TRAINED YOUR BODY TO BE ADAPTED TO EFFICIENTLY USING KETONES.  

 

Becoming “keto-adapted” is far different than simply being in ketosis during a short term keto diet, and you should explore facts and know exactly what that term really means.

 

Becoming keto-adapted doesn’t happen by simply doing a keto diet to lose a few pounds. It’s more involved than that and takes months to accomplish, but it is well worth the effort.

 

So my view is, “What’s the big f*ggin deal anyway?”  Just do it!  Becoming keto-adapted doesn’t mean giving up carbs; it simply means training your body to be just as efficient using fat as fuel, as it is using carbs as fuel.

 

Keto should not be thought of as a weight loss diet.  It is MUCH MORE!  It is a lifestyle, and a very healthy one at that.

 

My favorite analogy of Keto is the Hybrid engine that’s capable of efficiently using either gasoline or electricity as fuel, depending on which is best for a given circumstance.

 

There are so many reasons for EVERYONE, not just the obese, sick, or endurance athletes to embrace a keto lifestyle over a glucose-dominant lifestyle.  If a person does their due diligence with an open mind, I can’t imagine them not reaching the same conclusions as I have.

 

There is nothing “magical” about it.  When you explore the facts, it just makes sense.

 

[WaveHunter]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

Again I trust Lyle Mc Donald over you any day as  he is far more knowledgeable. I send you his book with page reference and you just ignore it.

 

Leptin has a signalling function about how much bodyfat there is it signals this to the brain (no insulin needed to give that signal). There are leptin receptors that control appetite and metabolic rate (according to Lyle Mc Donald).

 

He actually says that taking carbs can help counter the problems leptin causes while on a diet can be countered with taking carbs. 

 

Your right they are inter connected but the whole signaling is done by leptin, the changes are made by leptin.

 

 

from Lyle Mc Donald.

 

 

In all calorie restricted diets your metabolism will slow down low carb too. I am living proof of this. I was high carb before and now low carb and guess what fat rate drops at the same speed. (great to have a scales with 5!! years of memory)

 

The only thing that is different is that i think i am far less hungry and low carb is easier (or at least right now)

You keep ignoring two things I am saying:

 

1) Becoming keto-adapted is NOT the same thing as simply limiting carbs on a low carb diet.  It’s actually a day vs night difference.  When McDonald made that observation you referred to, keto-adaptation was not even a concept yet.  He had no way of knowing.

 

2)  when you are keto-adapted, and carb intake is not inducing an insulin response, leptin is NOT a factor because leptin response is controlled by the negative feedback loop that it shares with insulin.

 

Both of these factors are part of nutritional science that are only just now becoming understood.  You need to explore current up-to-date information sources like PubMed to learn about these things.

 

Nothing against McDonald.  His writings are what got me interested in ketosis in the beginning,   Back when he was performing fasting experiments on himself and wrote his first paper on ketosis, most people thought he was out of his mind!  I embraced it!

 

He would be the first person to admit that this topic is one where knowledge and understanding are highly in flux.

 

What was conventional wisdom a year ago can be completely debunked and outdated today when it comes to this topic.

 

Maybe I’m not expressing my position properly but KETO-ADAPTATION IS THE KEY; NOT SIMPLY BEING LOW-CARB.  It’s all about ketones, not carbs or fat or proteins.  

 

Being keto-adapted is a UNIQUE hormonal state, and it does not happen simply by being on a keto diet for a few days or even a few weeks.  It takes months for the metabolic pathways to be defined in the body and brain.

 

When it is achieved though, the body and brain become adapted to using BOTH carbs and fats equally efficiently!  THAT is what I’m talking about!

 

It’s a completely unique HORMONAL state, even when you are ingesting carbs.  In other words, you can still stay keto-adapted even when you eat carbs!

 

It’s simply the best if both worlds.  I can understand anyone being skeptical, but in the words of the Nike advertisements, “Just Do It”, and find out for yourself like I have.  What do you have to lose?

 

 

[WaveHunter]

ENDING MY 5 DAY FASTING EXPERIMENT TOMORROW

Physical hunger and any discomfort associated with the fast were gone by yesterday, and all the positive aspects that I hoped for seem to have happened.  I only have a psychological desire for food but it can be pretty intense at times and I watch the food channel a lot to soothe myself LOL!

 

I normally do a 3 day fast once a month (mainly for autophagy reset) but wondered if there would be any advantage to 5 days.  I'm still on the fence about that though it seems to be true that I started feeling more energy once I got beyond 3 days. 

 

I think I'd have to go for 10 days to really know if my metabolism ramps up as much as a lot of the studies I've read seem to indicate, but 10 days is along commitment, so I probably will not attempt it.  Even 5 days is longer than I care for so I'll probably just stick with 3 days for future fasts.  HOWEVER, I don't think 10 days would be any harder than 5 days.  You basically pay your dues on days 2-3, and then it's pretty much smooth sailing after that, form what many people who have done it say.  Nonetheless, I thin I'll just take their word for that ????

 

One thing I am certain of though is that my metabolism has not gone down to the point where I have a problem jogging 6km nightly, which I've done every night during this fast.  I was a little tired on day 2 but had no problem with my run. 

 

That was the one thing in particular I wanted to find out since in all my previous 3-day fasts I purposely avoided any exercise type activity since that was the accepted thinking on how to do an extended fast.

 

I now think that avoiding exercise during a prolonged fast is wrong.  I think staying sedentary causes a metabolic slow-down, and staying active prevents it!.   Not that you should go and do a Cross-Fit workout, but some moderate exercise is important IMO.  I felt noticeably better by exercising through the fast compared with staying sedentary.

 

I've done a lot of thinking and reading on current research into autophagy, and I really think the critical period is day 2 and 3 since that is when the body is using ketones but still targeting "bad" proteins, and they are really the important culprits as far as I'm concerned.  Beyond 3 days, they aren't being as targeted as much for gluconeogenesis since ketone bodies have populated enough to provide enough fuel to the brain and fatty acid release for the body , so I still think the sweet spot really is 3 days.

 

I have my fast-breaking plan ready to go but with a 5 fay fast I'm not anticipating any issues, but still plan for it to be conservative with vegetable juices, then salads, before moving on to regular food by post day 3.  

 

Though I'm dreaming of eating like this guy, I won't (that picture just makes me smile for some reason ????

 

 

[robblok]

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

You keep ignoring two things I am saying:

 

1) Becoming keto-adapted is NOT the same thing as simply limiting carbs on a low carb diet.  It’s actually a day vs night difference.  When McDonald made that observation you referred to, keto-adaptation was not even a concept yet.  He had no way of knowing.

 

2)  when you are keto-adapted, and carb intake is not inducing an insulin response, leptin is NOT a factor because leptin response is controlled by the negative feedback loop that it shares with insulin.

 

Both of these factors are part of nutritional science that are only just now becoming understood.  You need to explore current up-to-date information sources like PubMed to learn about these things.

 

Nothing against McDonald.  His writings are what got me interested in ketosis in the beginning,   Back when he was performing fasting experiments on himself and wrote his first paper on ketosis, most people thought he was out of his mind!  I embraced it!

 

He would be the first person to admit that this topic is one where knowledge and understanding are highly in flux.

 

What was conventional wisdom a year ago can be completely debunked and outdated today when it comes to this topic.

 

Maybe I’m not expressing my position properly but KETO-ADAPTATION IS THE KEY; NOT SIMPLY BEING LOW-CARB.  It’s all about ketones, not carbs or fat or proteins.  

 

Being keto-adapted is a UNIQUE hormonal state, and it does not happen simply by being on a keto diet for a few days or even a few weeks.  It takes months for the metabolic pathways to be defined in the body and brain.

 

When it is achieved though, the body and brain become adapted to using BOTH carbs and fats equally efficiently!  THAT is what I’m talking about!

 

It’s a completely unique HORMONAL state, even when you are ingesting carbs.  In other words, you can still stay keto-adapted even when you eat carbs!

 

It’s simply the best if both worlds.  I can understand anyone being skeptical, but in the words of the Nike advertisements, “Just Do It”, and find out for yourself like I have.  What do you have to lose?

 

 

You still ignoring the science completely. I guess its best i stop this topic. 

 

I quoted word for word that leptin signals the brain how much fat it has and controls metabolism. Has nothing to do with insulin. Your magical keto state won't get around that and you believing so won't change the science. 

 

Leptin is what slows our metabolic rate down no matter what diet you are on because its not about carbs insulin ect... but how much fat it measures your body has. This comes straight from Lyle Mc Donalds and many other sites.

 

Keto adaptation or not it wont override the signaling system. If you don't want to believe the science so be it. Quoted proof from 2 different sources and you still wont buy it. Maybe you should read the leptin book like I have it might open  your eyes.

[WaveHunter]

22 hours ago, robblok said:

You still ignoring the science completely. I guess its best i stop this topic. 

 

I quoted word for word that leptin signals the brain how much fat it has and controls metabolism. Has nothing to do with insulin. Your magical keto state won't get around that and you believing so won't change the science. 

 

Leptin is what slows our metabolic rate down no matter what diet you are on because its not about carbs insulin ect... but how much fat it measures your body has. This comes straight from Lyle Mc Donalds and many other sites.

 

Keto adaptation or not it wont override the signaling system. If you don't want to believe the science so be it. Quoted proof from 2 different sources and you still wont buy it. Maybe you should read the leptin book like I have it might open  your eyes.

First of all, you’ve got it ass backwards with regard to leptin!  Leptin's primary functions is as a feedback mechanism that signals the brain to suppress food intake.  Its' possible role in affecting resting metabolic rates is strongly debated and is the subject of ongoing research BUT the debated question is whether it may INCREASE rates, not decreases them.

 

See The role of leptin and ghrelin in the regulation of food intake and body weight in humans: a review

 

FYI, it is leptin resistance, not leptin that is the culprit in obesity.  Leptin’s role in obesity is only when its’ receptors in the hypothalamus become desensitized to leptin (leptin intolerance) due to over-eating, just the same way that insulin receptors become desensitized from excessive  carbohydrates.

 

See Response of leptin to short-term and prolonged overfeeding in humans

 

Furthermore, every scientific study I have ever seen finds no incidence of a decrease in resting metabolic rate in cases of leptin deficiency or receptor intolerance, even though numerous researchers note that they find this to be an unusual finding:

Energy expenditure

Although leptin plays a key role in thermogenesis in rodents, we were unable to demonstrate a major acute effect of leptin administration on basal metabolic rate as measured by indirect calorimetry, total energy expenditure using chamber calorimetry, or free-living energy expenditure using the doubly-labelled water method in leptin-deficient humans after adjusting for body composition (Farooqi et al. 2002). However, as weight loss by other means is associated with a decrease in basal metabolic rate, the fact that energy expenditure did not fall in leptin-deficient subjects is an unusual finding. In keeping with these findings, Ravussin et al. showed that before weight loss, leptin-deficient adults and matched controls had similar energy expenditures (Galgani et al. 2010). Whilst energy expenditure did not change after leptin-deficient patients were treated with leptin, controls who lost a comparable amount of weight on an energy-restricted diet had lower energy expenditures than expected for their new weight and body composition (Galgani et al. 2010). This response is often referred to as the metabolic adaptation to weight loss, i.e. a decrease in metabolic rate beyond that expected on the basis of the decrease in fat-free mass and fat mass. Furthermore, Ozata et al. (1999) reported abnormalities of sympathetic nerve function in leptin-deficient adults. Cumulatively, these findings are consistent with defects in the efferent sympathetic limb of thermogenesis. Body composition measurements show that leptin deficiency is characterised by the preferential deposition of fat mass (compared with lean mass), and weight loss leads to a preferential loss of fat mass (Farooqi et al. 1999). In rodents, leptin stimulates fatty acid oxidation in skeletal muscle via the stimulation of AMP kinase activity (Minokoshi et al. 2002). In leptin-deficient adults, impaired fat oxidation has been measured by chamber calorimetry (Galgani et al. 2010).

 

With regard to McDonald's comment that you quoted on low metabolic rate associated with low carb diets:

 

"...In all calorie restricted diets your metabolism will slow down low carb too...."

 

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CALORIE RESTRICTED LOW CARB DIETS!  How many times do I have to say this? I mean, c'mon, listen to what I am saying!

 

First of all, a ketogenic diet is a means to becoming "keto-adapted".  So, it is not really even a weight loss diet.  Becoming keto-adapted will result in fat loss if that is the goal. 

 

Because it is less calorie-restricted than a non-keto diet, it is far less likely to reduce resting metabolic rate.  What level of decrease does occur is countered by the release of norepinephrine.  This occurs in a keto-adapted person  It does NOT occur in a non-keto calorie restricted diet.

 

See: Resting energy expenditure in short-term starvation is increased as a result of an increase in serum norepinephrine

 

Nothing against McDonald.  You have to understand that when he did his low-carb fasts, little if anything was known about how the body reacts to the fasted or ketogenic state, and adaptation to ketone metabolism was not even a concept then! 

 

Yes, resting metabolic rate will drop big time on a ketogenic diet just as much as any other diet initially, but norepinephrine will counter this in a keto-adapted person, and then once ketones are providing ample fuel, resting metabolic rate will stay high because the ketones are tapping into fat metabolism in a way that a non-keto restricted calorie diet simply can not do.

 

The whole purpose of keto-adaptation is to train the body in how to deal with ketone metabolism.  Back in ancient times when there were no refrigerators or fast food, people had to go for long periods of time with no food, and they were naturally adapted to using ketones.  That's what allowed the to survive!  In modern times, we've lost that ability to effectively use ketones.  So, that's what keto adaptation is really all about.  It is NOT a diet!  It is a way to restore fat and carbohydrate metabolic pathways to the way they were meant to be!

 

A ketogenic diet that is low in carbs is simply the means to induce ketosis, nothing more.  The goal is not to lose weight on a ketogenic diet, though that is what the internet and youtube gurus promote it as.

 

A ketogenic diet is also NOT intended to banish carbs from you your long-term nutrition either.  Many people who become keto-adapted, will incorporate carbohydrates back into their diet and they do fine BECAUSE they are now adapted to using fat as an ADDITIONAL PRIMARY FUEL SOURCE, so I am hardly saying that carbs are bad when you have become keto-adapted.

 

The real goal is simply to redefine the metabolic pathways of carbohydrate and fat metabolism.  Once that is achieved, your body will then be able to use BOTH fats AND carbohydrates more efficiently. 

 

The end result is that you will not have to go on any sort of calorie-restricted diets again because your body will maintain proper body fat levels properly on its' own by being able to tap into BOTH fats and carbohydrates much more efficiently.

 

What I am saying is that if your body does not know how to use ketones, your fat metabolism will be grossly sub-optimal, and any sort of non-keto calorie restricted diet is only going to have short-term success at best.

 

I have no idea why you have this knee-jerk negative reaction to keto-adapatation. You seem to be compelled to play "devil's advocate" with everything I say! The scientific research being conducted into keto-adaptation and autophagy are being led by well-respected  scientists, some of them Nobel-prize winners, not just internet hacks or YouTube gurus trying to market fad diets !   

 

For you to claim that I am promoting a fad diet or something akin to magical beans from Jack and the Bean Stock is just plain nonsense.  You should not be criticizing keto-adapatation when you simply do not understand the science behind it.

 

What’s more, I’d think you’d be interested in keto-adaptation since you trust Lyle McDonald and he is actually a proponent of keto-adaptation. 

 

In fact, in the first book of his I read, he cited a study that showed that body builder’s muscles were more like those of endurance athletes than strength & power athletes!  And, I have seen scientific studies that reiterate that body builders require very little "explosive" power in workouts, and that they really require very little in the way of carb supplementation in spite of the many believing that they need to rely on carbs for their workouts.  Keto adaptation is thus ideal for them! 

 

Point being, I think people put vastly too much emphasis on glucose-based metabolism, and not enough on fat metabolism. 

 

Becoming keto-adapted is simply a way to balance things out.  It is not a matter of carbs OR fats.  It is all about optimizing the metabolic of BOTH.  In other words, the hybrid engine analogy we discussed previously.

 

All of this is not some sort of magical mumbo jumbo fad thing as you seem to believe.  It is simply well founded science.

 

[THAIPHUKET]

I find this discourse highly informative.

Thanks to both of you!

[WaveHunter]

3 minutes ago, THAIPHUKET said:

I find this discourse highly informative.

Thanks to both of you!

Thanks I appreciate your comment.  Both robblok and I have varying opinions on this topic to say the least but I think we both bring a lot to the table in positive way.  I may ramble on too much on the subject but I happen to feel pretty passionate about it, and I'm guessing robblok does too.

 

Glad you find it useful ????

 

[Destiny1990]

How about the 5:2 diet anyone tried it?

[THAIPHUKET]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Thanks I appreciate your comment.  Both robblok and I have varying opinions on this topic to say the least but I think we both bring a lot to the table in positive way.  I may ramble on too much on the subject but I happen to feel pretty passionate about it, and I'm guessing robblok does too.

 

Glad you find it useful ????

 

What would be helpful to the audience=

Short summary and conclusion how to apply the info

[whitemouse]

On 6/15/2018 at 9:47 AM, Justfine said:

Wrong. My numbers proved you can't eat that stuff.

 

Who eats a teaspoon of rice or potato?

 

Stop being silly.

 

 

 

Who eats 1 potato? People on keto diet. You seem surprised people eat very little carbs, is it really so strange to limit yourself to 1 potatoe per day? It is 20g of carbs per day. Why does this mystify you?

[whitemouse]

On 6/15/2018 at 12:44 PM, Justfine said:

Surplus is better than deficit.

 

Your white carb diet isn't much good.

Poster says he eats 2 spoonful of rice per day, easily under 30g, and to you this is 'white carb diet' lol. Willfully misinterpreting what is being said is what children do