Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[faraday]

Robblok's post # 27 in response the GK's post # 25, is quite correct.

 

Too address a few points of #25.

 

I most certainly do not have a cavalier attitude to any drug, & my knowledge comes from direct medical advice, & my own knowledge from here:

 

http://www.bssm.org.uk/resources/

 

and also from the correct medical sources.

 

However, I have seen & read some people on some bodybuilding sites who take big doses of Anabolic steroids, who then get alot of problems.

 

Those sites are well moderated, & the advice is given by people who also have medical knowledge, & experience with Steroids.

 

Buying & using Steroids is not to be undertaken lightly, & especially not to get "steroids off big Dave" at the gym.

 

I have over 30 years working for the NHS, in a senior clinical position.

 

While it is appreciated your concern about the correct supervised use of drugs, please don't dilute your insufficient knowledge with scaremongering.

 

Lastly, low Testosterone is not a hyped up myth, & TRT available in the UK from the NHS & private medical clinics.

 

NB. I'm not attacking you, or trying to "put you right" ok?

 

 

 

 

[catman20]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

Like all things there are always people who over do stuff. I read bodybuilder sites they are talking about 1-2 grams of the stuff per week. While a normal starter dose (for bodybuilders) would be 500mg. Thing is yes its dangerous, but the dangers can be manageable if you don't take too much and take an anti aromatase with it. But plenty of people think more is better, forgetting the side effects gets worse too.

ok fine agreed but for a guy of i think he said he was 54 i dont think its a good road to be going down at that age.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, catman20 said:

ok fine agreed but for a guy of i think he said he was 54 i dont think its a good road to be going down at that age.

I was talking about TRT for him, many people do that. The response you are quoting was meant to counter stuff about the death of bodybuilders. I was just showing how some people really overdo things and so get into trouble. I would not advise a 54 year old to start to pump bodybuilder doses of steroids in his system. But if he is interested in TRT he should do a lot of research and many start of with a DR familiar with TRT. I am doing TRT as I had low T. I do it myself after having done all the tests needed before. I still regularly do blood tests and store them all for future reference. 

 

Not everyone is an idiot and some people can manage things quite well on their own after having studied an issue for a long time.

[Justfine]

https://www.healthline.com/health/testosterone-and-zinc

 

 

[robblok]

3 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Unless I have missed something. Can you please explain what you mean by juicing?

Juicing is an other word for the misuse of steroids.

[NoshowJones]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

Juicing is an other word for the misuse of steroids.

Thanks Rob, I thought juicing had something to do with health drinks, hence the name juice.

[Tacuisse]

It's a shame there isn't a chemical we can ingest to improve brain function. If we did, this thread would have died stillborn.

[tropo]

8 hours ago, Bob12345 said:

With other words: if you are average by nature you should stay average the rest of your life.

 

Luckily medical science evolved: if you want to be "super-human" you can become "super-human".

But the choice to stay average or become above average is for everyone to make by themselves.

 

@catman20: i have the feeling that topic-starter is not a WWE star.

There's no need to twist my words around. If a person has low testosterone levels, then improving that with TRT will most certainly be a big aid for him to improve his physique at age 54. You cannot become superhuman at age 54 no matter what you take. That boat left long ago.

 

Apart from that, if a person is "average" at age 54, it's most likely not a problem. At that age, health should be more of a concern than body aesthetics.

 

 

[robblok]

39 minutes ago, Tacuisse said:

It's a shame there isn't a chemical we can ingest to improve brain function. If we did, this thread would have died stillborn.

 At least your reply would not be here because you would know enough about the subject not to make foolish remarks.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29066571/  (low test leads to dead)

 

http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/2/6/e000272  (more risks of low test)

 

That does not mean that injecting test is the answer but its not as bad as many people make it out to believe it might actually be good. A lot depends of course on the dose and if the person has any underlying health issues.

 

I am not talking here about body builder doses of test.

 

We all do know that we now got a lot less testosterone then our grandfather and before that test levels might even been higher. 

 

 

[Justfine]

5-3-1 programs are aimed at people under 40yo. Older people should do higher reps. Less strain on joints and less chance of injury.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Justfine said:

5-3-1 programs are aimed at people under 40yo. Older people should do higher reps. Less strain on joints and less chance of injury.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/lifters-over-30-need-to-get-real

 

Im crying with I read it but there is quite a bit of truth in it. There are more ways then one to make things heavy.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Can you provide a citation?

Thanks

See my link, personally I like to train hard. I like to train heavy.. Its a bad trait but I do realize that low reps puts a lot of extra strain on the joints. I admit I still go heavy but I seldom go below 8 reps. I admit I did 5 x 5 a while back and I am 44 so even as over 30 i still went low in reps. .

 

https://www.t-nation.com/training/lifters-over-30-need-to-get-real

[Tacuisse]

13 minutes ago, robblok said:

 At least your reply would not be here because you would know enough about the subject not to make foolish remarks.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29066571/  (low test leads to dead)

 

http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/2/6/e000272  (more risks of low test)

 

That does not mean that injecting test is the answer but its not as bad as many people make it out to believe it might actually be good. A lot depends of course on the dose and if the person has any underlying health issues.

 

I am not talking here about body builder doses of test.

 

We all do know that we now got a lot less testosterone then our grandfather and before that test levels might even been higher. 

 

 

I know enough about the subject to realize Mother Nature has a way of kicking back when we ingest the wrong chemicals.

Most of the testosterone decline since our grandfather's day has been caused by the commonplace chemicals developed by the chemical industry. E.g. PFAS, nonionic surfactants.

For people in their 60's and 70's, regular walking and swimming is the best form of exercise. Biking also, provided one can avoid Thai traffic. Personally, I consider bike riding to be too dangerous.

I'm 75. If you happen to get to my age, perhaps you won't be so quick to judge a post as foolish.

 

 

 

[Justfine]

Quite a bit of discussion on T Nation for older trainers. Personally I got better results in the 6 to 12 rep range when young as well.

 

5-3-1 is for strength but a number of guys said their strength dropped after short breaks cause that training doesn't build much size.

 

You can build a good combo of strength and size in the 6 to 12 rep range anyway.

 

5-3-1 boosts 1rm but really building your strength over 10 reps is more practical for living.

 

Also certain muscles do better off 10 to 20 reps. Back and biceps for instance as slow twitch muscles grow better off higher reps.

 

 

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, Tacuisse said:

I know enough about the subject to realize Mother Nature has a way of kicking back when we ingest the wrong chemicals.

Most of the testosterone decline since our grandfather's day has been caused by the commonplace chemicals developed by the chemical industry. E.g. PFAS, nonionic surfactants.

For people in their 60's and 70's, regular walking and swimming is the best form of exercise. Biking also, provided one can avoid Thai traffic. Personally, I consider bike riding to be too dangerous.

I'm 75. If you happen to get to my age, perhaps you won't be so quick to judge a post as foolish.

 

 

 

Rowing is also good.

[moe666]

9 hours ago, dotpoom said:

I had a blood test and my testerone level was low. The doctor recommended one injection 250mg every 30 days, I'm 68 yrs. old. This was costing me 500 Bt. a go, so I bought a packet myself (containing about 20 viles) at the pharmacy and pay the same clinic 100 Baht a go to inject it for me. The result after all this..."Not a blind bit of difference"....feel exactly the same as before (and look the same too, methinks)

   Would I bother again...."No".

  When this lot is finished....no more for me.

 

 

 

 

At your age more testosterone usually means more estrogen as well. There is more to it than taking a shot once a month. As we age testosterone converts to estrogen a east fix is zine but no more than 90 milgrams a day. This blocks the conversion. Do some research plenty out there

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, moe666 said:

At your age more testosterone usually means more estrogen as well. There is more to it than taking a shot once a month. As we age testosterone converts to estrogen a east fix is zine but no more than 90 milgrams a day. This blocks the conversion. Do some research plenty out there

If you meant to say zinc you should stay under 40mg a day.

 

 

[moe666]

7 hours ago, poanoi said:

lol, i checked blood when i tested testosterone,

and it turned out i had same estrogen level as a woman right before she menstrate

Start taking zinc but no more than 90milgrams a day, your test. is being converted to estrogen. I use a liguis zinc from Iherb about a 15 milgram dose works great

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Tacuisse said:

I know enough about the subject to realize Mother Nature has a way of kicking back when we ingest the wrong chemicals.

Most of the testosterone decline since our grandfather's day has been caused by the commonplace chemicals developed by the chemical industry. E.g. PFAS, nonionic surfactants.

For people in their 60's and 70's, regular walking and swimming is the best form of exercise. Biking also, provided one can avoid Thai traffic. Personally, I consider bike riding to be too dangerous.

I'm 75. If you happen to get to my age, perhaps you won't be so quick to judge a post as foolish.

 

 

 

You were the one who started it by demeaning others so you don't even practice what you preach (you judged other posts foolish without you having much knowledge) . For the record in most cases testosterone is not ingested (just in case you thought it.. could also be a reference to us ingesting other chemicals that lower our test so I am not sure what you meant). 

 

You don't seem to know much about the subject more like an grandfather who is a bit opinionated but with little lack of knowledge. 

 

Don't get me wrong the decision to do TRT is not one that should be taken lightly. Blood tests and best a DR appointment should be undertaken. Own research should be done (not do it because someone says you should... find out for yourself). 

 

As for what kind of exercise is good for people of  60 and 70.. even weight lifting is good.. a bit of weight on the bones to keep them strong is good. But in the end ANY exercise they can do and keep up doing is good in my book. Too often do you see older people turn in complete vegetables. (not always caused by disease). I believe in exercise for quality of life.

 

 

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, moe666 said:

Start taking zinc but no more than 90milgrams a day, your test. is being converted to estrogen. I use a liguis zinc from Iherb about a 15 milgram dose works great

I am not sure that zinc will help you the moment you inject testosterone. It might help naturals combat estrogen but I have never read on any bodybuilder site about zinc to combat estrogen (when juicing). Arimidex and others are used to combat estrogen, if zink could do the job it would be perfect of course. (not saying it wont work.. just never read about it for people who inject the estrogen response might be much higher)

[Bob12345]

1 hour ago, tropo said:

There's no need to twist my words around. If a person has low testosterone levels, then improving that with TRT will most certainly be a big aid for him to improve his physique at age 54. You cannot become superhuman at age 54 no matter what you take. That boat left long ago.

 

Apart from that, if a person is "average" at age 54, it's most likely not a problem. At that age, health should be more of a concern than body aesthetics.

 

 

Depending on your background and definition of "superhuman" of course, but yes you can.

Just google "over 50 bodybuilding", or "over 60 bodybuilding", or even "over 70 bodybuilding".

Or google for "over 50 powerlifting".

 

The question is more if you are willing to "pay the price" to get that far, and I am not referring to money.

[Tacuisse]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

You were the one who started it by demeaning others so you don't even practice what you preach (you judged other posts foolish without you having much knowledge) . For the record in most cases testosterone is not ingested (just in case you thought it.. could also be a reference to us ingesting other chemicals that lower our test so I am not sure what you meant). 

 

You don't seem to know much about the subject more like an grandfather who is a bit opinionated but with little lack of knowledge. 

 

Don't get me wrong the decision to do TRT is not one that should be taken lightly. Blood tests and best a DR appointment should be undertaken. Own research should be done (not do it because someone says you should... find out for yourself). 

 

As for what kind of exercise is good for people of  60 and 70.. even weight lifting is good.. a bit of weight on the bones to keep them strong is good. But in the end ANY exercise they can do and keep up doing is good in my book. Too often do you see older people turn in complete vegetables. (not always caused by disease). I believe in exercise for quality of life.

 

 

I was making the point we ingest enough crap without pumping it into our bodies as well by injection. Everyone is different in their physiology, and this obsession with steroids, testosterone etc. does not end well for some. For example, as a painkiller morphine has zero effect on me. My body loves endone, a synthetic opioid.

Just because you think your opinion is right, does not mean my opinion is wrong.

"Little lack of knowledge"? What do you mean? Perhaps the stuff you are injecting is interfering with your thought processes.

 

 

[The Theory]

"Those will put a heavy burden on your kidneys and liver, especially the oral types. Yes, you will build muscle, but at a cost to your health.”

 

That was a great advice,

dont forget body adjust amonth of hormones by age. You push it, you will damage yourself. 

The best is right diet for your age. Add white duck meat to your diet. Collagen would work too. I preafer sea collagen. Some other grass fed. 

[robblok]

10 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Every time I make a  gain on one of the Big 3, I feel like I am  kicking  the Grim  Reaper in the  nuts.

Yes there is nothing more fun than gaining on the big 3 I love it.. Too bad there is not much for me to improve on. Though I could still improve (and am) on squat and dead lift, bench-press is dead. I don't do singles or anything like that I just try to go up with my sets. 

 

For me its not even the weights I am lifting, but progress and progress is most easily seen by higher numbers on the bar.

[Justfine]

https://www.t-nation.com/living/keep-kicking-ass-after-40

 

Some useful stuff on hormones at the bottom of article

[tropo]

4 minutes ago, Bob12345 said:

Depending on your background and definition of "superhuman" of course, but yes you can.

Just google "over 50 bodybuilding", or "over 60 bodybuilding", or even "over 70 bodybuilding".

Or google for "over 50 powerlifting".

 

The question is more if you are willing to "pay the price" to get that far, and I am not referring to money.

None of those guys started at 54.

 

All of what you call superhuman are using an extreme amount of chemicals. Anyone in a superhuman category didn't get there from drugs alone, but very good genetics and an extreme amount of training and dietary effort.

 

It's not really a valid point for a guy who's considering taking something at age 54.

[moe666]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am not sure that zinc will help you the moment you inject testosterone. It might help naturals combat estrogen but I have never read on any bodybuilder site about zinc to combat estrogen (when juicing). Arimidex and others are used to combat estrogen, if zink could do the job it would be perfect of course. (not saying it wont work.. just never read about it for people who inject the estrogen response might be much higher)

Check out life extension foundation they have been advocates in lowering estrogen levels for years, they recommend zinc. I also know it works as well. I had been taking zinc in tablet form for years and thought it was working but went to a natural path who preformed muscle test on me and determined I needed zinc. When I explained I was already taking zinc she explained it was not being absorbed. She did a taste test of some liquid and ask me what it taste like, like water I explained. She said she had given me a mixture of water and zinc and if I had said it tasted like crap she would have been happy with my taste test but since it tasted like water I was low in zinc. I took a bottle and started dosing in about 3 days my testosterone levels were sky hi, I will not go into details but was wishing I was back in Thailand to work off the testosterone. I was in my middle 60s then 73 now and still taking zinc and estrogen levels low every blood test, I also use testosterone gel.

[Justfine]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes there is nothing more fun than gaining on the big 3 I love it.. Too bad there is not much for me to improve on. Though I could still improve (and am) on squat and dead lift, bench-press is dead. I don't do singles or anything like that I just try to go up with my sets. 

 

For me its not even the weights I am lifting, but progress and progress is most easily seen by higher numbers on the bar.

I enjoy not doing squats or bench ?

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, Tacuisse said:

I was making the point we ingest enough crap without pumping it into our bodies as well by injection. Everyone is different in their physiology, and this obsession with steroids, testosterone etc. does not end well for some. For example, as a painkiller morphine has zero effect on me. My body loves endone, a synthetic opioid.

Just because you think your opinion is right, does not mean my opinion is wrong.

"Little lack of knowledge"? What do you mean? Perhaps the stuff you are injecting is interfering with your thought processes.

 

 

Not really my IQ (tested) of 134 gives me a good idea of things. I am accountant / fiscal adviser by trade and use my brain a lot. So it does not seem to be impaired. (not the average muscle monkey)

 

To clear something up we are NOT talking here about bodybuilder doses of steroids but HRT (keeping low levels higher). That is totally different from bodybuilders injecting massive amounts of the stuff. Surely you must understand that the higher a dose of something you take the worse the side effects get. We are talking her about doses that are quite low that bring you to a natural high.

 

That not everyone is the same, is something I have advocated for years you won't get any disagreement there. Once can process carbs good.. others can't some are suited for weight lifting others not, some are great at biking others not. We are all individuals but some things stay the same.

 

My opinion was build by quotes from medical research, and the fact that millions and millions of people are on TRT. 

 

Do i think that injecting huge amounts of steroids in the body is dangerous... YES... do i think HRT is dangerous if there are no underlying health problems and you monitor your blood works and blood pressure.. no then I don't think its dangerous.

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, moe666 said:

Check out life extension foundation they have been advocates in lowering estrogen levels for years, they recommend zinc. I also know it works as well. I had been taking zinc in tablet form for years and thought it was working but went to a natural path who preformed muscle test on me and determined I needed zinc. When I explained I was already taking zinc she explained it was not being absorbed. She did a taste test of some liquid and ask me what it taste like, like water I explained. She said she had given me a mixture of water and zinc and if I had said it tasted like crap she would have been happy with my taste test but since it tasted like water I was low in zinc. I took a bottle and started dosing in about 3 days my testosterone levels were sky hi, I will not go into details but was wishing I was back in Thailand to work off the testosterone. I was in my middle 60s then 73 now and still taking zinc and estrogen levels low every blood test, I also use testosterone gel.

Interesting, as I do take test for HRT its quite easy for me to try zinc for a month instead of anastazole and do a blood test. I mean the proof is of course in a blood test. I would much rather take something like zinc than anastazole.