U.N. refugee boss concerned over U.S. separating children from families

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, bushdoctor said:

 

Wake up. It’s not necessary to enter the country illegally to apply for asylum. This is a false narrative.

Your narrative is false. This is not about legal or illegal entry. And entered legally or illegally, they are still allowed to apply for asylum.

 

And quite a few of them are fully legal, but children are separated.

 

Deplorable.

[bushdoctor]

Here are the facts: 

 

Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum are not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. It’s when they enter illegally and break the law that causes a problem. From there, if they choose deportation, they aren’t separated from their kids, but if they choose to apply for asylum and they stay in the country longer than 20 days, their kids have to be removed by operation of law.

 

Here are some good suggestions:

 

If you want to apply for asylum do it the legal way.

 

If you attack an agent, expect high odds of being shot. 

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

Here are the facts: 

 

Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum are not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. It’s when they enter illegally and break the law that causes a problem. From there, if they choose deportation, they aren’t separated from their kids, but if they choose to apply for asylum and they stay in the country longer than 20 days, their kids have to be removed by operation of law.

 

Here are some good suggestions:

 

If you want to apply for asylum do it the legal way.

 

If you attack an agent, expect high odds of being shot. 

Your facts are exactly that, your facts, not THE facts.

 

But you're saying that if they enter legally they are not and should not be separated?

[bushdoctor]

Look it up for yourself, those are the facts. 

[stevenl]

10 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

Look it up for yourself, those are the facts. 

Avoiding the question I see.

 

And no, your facts are not THE facts.

[bushdoctor]

18 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Avoiding the question I see.

 

And no, your facts are not THE facts.

 

Not avoiding the question at all. An agreement called the Flores Act was made in 1997 that stated unaccompanied illegal immigrant children could not be held in custody longer than 20 days. Look it up. Later the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that was also to include accompanied illegal immigrant children. So what that means is the government has to either release whole families, or seperate children from parents. The key word in both accompanied and unaccompanied illegal immigrant children is the word “illegal”. 

So no, they are not separated if they do it legally, as long as the parent can show the child is actually theirs. However they can separate children if there is a child safety or identification issue. 

[Scott]

There have been reports of children being separated at the border, but that is largely unsubstantiated and most likely if it occurs, there are other factors in play.

 

Those seeking asylum at the border are mostly reported as not being separated from their children.

 

A detention holding facility for a family is not the same as a jail, but it's questionable if they are removed from their family if you can hold them.   As I understand it, some of them have now been held for considerably longer than 20 days.

 

Unaccompanied minors are a little different situation.   They must have a guardian appointed.   Generally they are moved out of locked facilities into a less restrictive setting pending a state licensed placement, whether it is a facility, a foster home or with relatives who have been approved as appropriate as guardians.  

[stevenl]

23 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

 

Not avoiding the question at all. An agreement called the Flores Act was made in 1997 that stated unaccompanied illegal immigrant children could not be held in custody longer than 20 days. Look it up. Later the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that was also to include accompanied illegal immigrant children. So what that means is the government has to either release whole families, or seperate children from parents. The key word in both accompanied and unaccompanied illegal immigrant children is the word “illegal”. 

So no, they are not separated if they do it legally, as long as the parent can show the child is actually theirs. However they can separate children if there is a child safety or identification issue. 

Still no answer, unless you think 'can not according to the law's and 'are not' are the same.

 

No matter, the facts clearly state you're wrong. Can not be held longer than 20 days but are being held longer. Illegal entry doesn't mean they can not apply for asylum.

 

But most of all: it is deplorable, illegal entry or not, acting legally or not. 

[bushdoctor]

I don’t think I said illegal immigrants can’t apply for asylum. 

 

Please show me where detaining accompanied illegal immigrant children for more than 20 days has taken place. I haven’t been able to verify that. 

[Scott]

I follow the issue so I will see what I can find in writing.   ABC Evening News showed an interview with the foster parents of a boy who has been in care for 8+ months.   His father was detained and has since been deported to Honduras, leaving him stranded in the US.  

 

[bushdoctor]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

I follow the issue so I will see what I can find in writing.   ABC Evening News showed an interview with the foster parents of a boy who has been in care for 8+ months.   His father was detained and has since been deported to Honduras, leaving him stranded in the US.  

 

Thank you.

As a rule they don’t do it. It’s not procedure. I wouldn’t count a few incidents with extenuating circumstances such as improper documentation for the child etc. There will always be exceptions. 

[Srikcir]

While the debate on the humanity of separating children from their parents seeking asylum continues on, the United Methodist Church has issued a complaint against UMC member Attorney General Sessions charging in part that his "zero tolerance" may constitute child abuse, immorality and racial discrimination.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/19/politics/sessions-church-complaint/index.html

Apparently the UMC was not impressed with Sessions citing Romans 13 from the New Testament nor with Trump's leadership regarding morality and racial bias.

 

[johnnybangkok]

4 hours ago, bushdoctor said:

Here are the facts: 

 

Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum are not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. It’s when they enter illegally and break the law that causes a problem. From there, if they choose deportation, they aren’t separated from their kids, but if they choose to apply for asylum and they stay in the country longer than 20 days, their kids have to be removed by operation of law.

 

Here are some good suggestions:

 

If you want to apply for asylum do it the legal way.

 

If you attack an agent, expect high odds of being shot. 

•  

 

Your 'facts' are not 'facts' at all. They are what you are being fed by the Trump administration and Fox news.  I posted this earlier in the thread but let me explain it once again:  

The Trump administration decided on a 'zero tolerance policy' to charge everyone crossing the border with illegal entry even if they are asylum seekers (which the vast majority are). Human rights organizations, including the United Nations, have argued that this violates international law as this allows his administration to charge them in criminal court rather than waiting to see if they qualify for asylum. Even with all this, however there is still no law that requires immigrant families to be separated, however because migrants who’ve been referred for criminal prosecution get sent to a federal jail and brought before a federal judge, that’s where the separation happens — because you can’t be kept with your children in federal jail. 

So you are completely wrong about 'Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum are not arrested'. Unlike the previous Obama administration, Trump’s is treating all people who have crossed the border without authorization as subject to criminal prosecution, even if they tell the officer apprehending them that they are seeking asylum based on fear of returning to their home country, and whether or not they have their children in tow.  This then allows the rest of the fiasco to unfold and for the children to be separated.  

These sir are the facts.

[bushdoctor]

They can make whatever ridiculous charges they want. Get back to me when there’s a conviction.

 

I would sooner support charging the parent with child endangerment

[bushdoctor]

3 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

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Posted 18 hours ago

  21 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

 No idea why the Trump administration is getting heat over this. If migrant parents don't want to be separated from their kids, then get a passport and proper visas. It seems like a no-brainer.

 

Your 'facts' are not 'facts' at all. They are what you are being fed by the Trump administration and Fox news.  I posted this earlier in the thread but let me explain it once again:  

The Trump administration decided on a 'zero tolerance policy' to charge everyone crossing the border with illegal entry rather even if they are asylum seekers (which the vast majority are). Human rights organizations, including the United Nations, have argued that this violates international law as this allows his administration to charge them in criminal court rather than waiting to see if they qualify for asylum. Even with all this, however there is still no law that requires immigrant families to be separated, however because migrants who’ve been referred for criminal prosecution get sent to a federal jail and brought before a federal judge, that’s where the separation happens — because you can’t be kept with your children in federal jail. 

So you are completely wrong about 'Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum are not arrested'. Unlike the previous Obama administration, Trump’s is treating all people who have crossed the border without authorization as subject to criminal prosecution, even if they tell the officer apprehending them that they are seeking asylum based on fear of returning to their home country, and whether or not they have their children in tow.  This then allows the rest of the fiasco to unfold and for the children to be separated.  

These sir are the facts.

 Sorry that’s incorrect. There is no law being broken if someone applies for asylum. The problem comes from entering illegally. 

The immigration laws are not new. The main difference between the current and past administration is that Trump is actually prosecuting offenders that break those laws. Only Congress can pass laws. 

Could Trump stop separating families by himself? If he writes an executive order to ignore and stop enforcing the laws. He has said he will not be implementing catch and release like the previous president.  

What Is Asylum?

Seeking asylum means asking the U.S. to accept you — legally — because of persecution you are facing in your home country.

Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor; for a person who has already been deported once, it's a felony. Both types of crimes are currently being prosecuted with no exceptions, even if a person later requests asylum.

Seeking asylum at a port of entry, however, is not a crime at all.

 

You mentioned the seperation comes when you are referred for prosecution because you can’t keep the children in a federal jail with the parents. Now ask yourself why not? .......Because it’s a law.

[bushdoctor]

In case you’re not familiar with a port of entry, those are the designated areas where you go in order to cross legally. Going there is not crossing illegally, and asking for asylum there is not illegal. It’s things like avoiding the ports of entry and sneaking into the country without permission that’s violating the law, and people who do that will be prosecuted. 

[Scott]

45 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

Thank you.

As a rule they don’t do it. It’s not procedure. I wouldn’t count a few incidents with extenuating circumstances such as improper documentation for the child etc. There will always be exceptions. 

Here's one link:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/us-foster-parents-separated-immigrant-children-dont-know-193304502--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[Srikcir]

8 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

If most of the asylum seekers are not from Mexico, aren't they supposed to seek asylum at the first "safe country"? The UNHCR guy should certainly know that.

There are exceptions and exclusions.

http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain/opendocpdf.pdf?reldoc=y&docid=4bab55da2

 

[Srikcir]

Trump has decided now that the US is withdrawing from the UNHRC, accusing the body in part of a failure to hold human rights abusers accountable. This just after the UNHRC accused the US of human rights abuse at the Mexican border with asylum seekers.

Ambassador Haley: "The world's most inhumane regimes continue to escapes its scrutiny"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZMcZhtFlDk

But Trump says accused human rights abuser Kim Jong Un 'loves his people' and refuses to discuss human rights abuses in Russia with Putin. 

This is beyond irony and into the realm of insanity.

[johnnybangkok]

9 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

 Sorry that’s incorrect. There is no law being broken if someone applies for asylum. The problem comes from entering illegally. 

The immigration laws are not new. The main difference between the current and past administration is that Trump is actually prosecuting offenders that break those laws. Only Congress can pass laws. 

Could Trump stop separating families by himself? If he writes an executive order to ignore and stop enforcing the laws. He has said he will not be implementing catch and release like the previous president.  

What Is Asylum?

Seeking asylum means asking the U.S. to accept you — legally — because of persecution you are facing in your home country.

Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor; for a person who has already been deported once, it's a felony. Both types of crimes are currently being prosecuted with no exceptions, even if a person later requests asylum.

Seeking asylum at a port of entry, however, is not a crime at all.

 

You mentioned the seperation comes when you are referred for prosecution because you can’t keep the children in a federal jail with the parents. Now ask yourself why not? .......Because it’s a law.

I'm not sure what you want me to say when you are willfully ignoring the facts. 

The whole point is even if you want to claim asylum you cannot as the Trump administration doesn'rt want any immigrants, irrespective of whether they are a legitimate asylum seekers or not.   

'Could Trump stop separating families by himself?' - Yes of course he could. All he needs to do is accept that some of the people are legitimate asylum seekers and stop throwing them all in the hole together.

 'Seeking asylum means asking the U.S. to accept you — legally — because of persecution you are facing in your home country.' - this is the very definition of asylum but what is currently being ignored by the Trump administration who are choosing to charge people with illegal entry rather than accept they may be legitimate asylum seekers. This is what everyone has a problem with including the UN (side note - do you think it's sheer coincidence that the Trump administration has confirmed they are leaving the UN Human Rights Council?)

'You mentioned the seperation (sic) comes when you are referred for prosecution because you can’t keep the children in a federal jail with the parents. Now ask yourself why not? .......Because it’s a law'. 

That's the whole point. It's only the law IF you DON'T choose to classify people as legitimate asylum seekers, hence why the Trump administration are calling everyone illegal immigrants, making it particularly difficult for people  to plead their case as asylum seekers. 

An excerpt from the New York times - The government has been seeking to hold more migrants in detention to speed up their removal. It is also discouraging people from applying for asylum, immigrant advocates and lawyers say, by criminally prosecuting those applicants who enter the country illegally rather than letting them turn themselves in at an official border station. These people can only apply for asylum once their criminal case has been heard and they have served time.

Some migrants who have presented themselves at a port of entry to claim asylum have had their children taken from them, though that was only supposed to happen to those being prosecuted for illegally crossing the border, according to several immigrant advocacy organizations, as well as the American Civil Liberties Union, which is challenging such family separations in court.

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this catch 22 that Trump has created. If you don't want to face these undeniable facts that even the Trump administration themselves happily admit then that is entirely your choice but these are the facts and is why everyone is rightfully indignant about the whole fiasco. If you had an ounce  of humanity and a sense of fair play, you too should be up in arms.  

 

[Srikcir]

45 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

They can make whatever ridiculous charges they want. Get back to me when there’s a conviction.

 

I would sooner support charging the parent with child endangerment

How about a lawsuit, maybe two?

The ACLU filed a class-action lawsuit in March over family separations and a judge has ruled the case can go forward to the courts.

Now NY Gov. Cuomo will be filing a lawsuit asserting that the Trump administration "is violating the Constitutional rights of thousands of immigrant children and their parents who have been separated at the border."

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/09/politics/aclu-lawsuit-separating-immigrant-families/index.html

Specifically, Trump will be accused violating the 1997 Flores Settlement Agreement, which binds federal authorities to specific standards about the detention of minors. The settlement requires children be released without unnecessary delay first to parents or other adult relatives.

http://fortune.com/2018/06/19/new-york-plans-to-sue-trump-over-child-separation-at-border/

Trump's fake 'facts' and misdirection will not help him in a Court of Law.

[bushdoctor]

50 minutes ago, Scott said:

Here's one link:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/us-foster-parents-separated-immigrant-children-dont-know-193304502--abc-news-topstories.html

 

Scott, the story doesn’t say why that happened. Maybe they deemed the child to be in some sort of danger, maybe the ‘father’ didn’t have documentation and couldn’t prove he was the parent. I’m sure you are aware that the media likes to sensationalize things. Either way this isn’t the norm. 

[bushdoctor]

32 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

I'm not sure what you want me to say when you are willfully ignoring the facts. 

The whole point is even if you want to claim asylum you cannot as the Trump administration doesn'rt want any immigrants, irrespective of whether they are a legitimate asylum seekers or not.   

'Could Trump stop separating families by himself?' - Yes of course he could. All he needs to do is accept that some of the people are legitimate asylum seekers and stop throwing them all in the hole together.

 'Seeking asylum means asking the U.S. to accept you — legally — because of persecution you are facing in your home country.' - this is the very definition of asylum but what is currently being ignored by the Trump administration who are choosing to charge people with illegal entry rather than accept they may be legitimate asylum seekers. This is what everyone has a problem with including the UN (side note - do you think it's sheer coincidence that the Trump administration has confirmed they are leaving the UN Human Rights Council?)

'You mentioned the seperation (sic) comes when you are referred for prosecution because you can’t keep the children in a federal jail with the parents. Now ask yourself why not? .......Because it’s a law'. 

That's the whole point. It's only the law IF you DON'T choose to classify people as legitimate asylum seekers, hence why the Trump administration are calling everyone illegal immigrants, making it particularly difficult for people  to plead their case as asylum seekers. 

An excerpt from the New York times - The government has been seeking to hold more migrants in detention to speed up their removal. It is also discouraging people from applying for asylum, immigrant advocates and lawyers say, by criminally prosecuting those applicants who enter the country illegally rather than letting them turn themselves in at an official border station. These people can only apply for asylum once their criminal case has been heard and they have served time.

Some migrants who have presented themselves at a port of entry to claim asylum have had their children taken from them, though that was only supposed to happen to those being prosecuted for illegally crossing the border, according to several immigrant advocacy organizations, as well as the American Civil Liberties Union, which is challenging such family separations in court.

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this catch 22 that Trump has created. If you don't want to face these undeniable facts that even the Trump administration themselves happily admit then that is entirely your choice but these are the facts and is why everyone is rightfully indignant about the whole fiasco. If you had an ounce  of humanity and a sense of fair play, you too should be up in arms.  

 

I think you’re ignoring facts. Immigrants absolutely can apply for asylum. 

[bushdoctor]

30 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

How about a lawsuit, maybe two?

The ACLU filed a class-action lawsuit in March over family separations and a judge has ruled the case can go forward to the courts.

Now NY Gov. Cuomo will be filing a lawsuit asserting that the Trump administration "is violating the Constitutional rights of thousands of immigrant children and their parents who have been separated at the border."

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/09/politics/aclu-lawsuit-separating-immigrant-families/index.html

Specifically, Trump will be accused violating the 1997 Flores Settlement Agreement, which binds federal authorities to specific standards about the detention of minors. The settlement requires children be released without unnecessary delay first to parents or other adult relatives.

http://fortune.com/2018/06/19/new-york-plans-to-sue-trump-over-child-separation-at-border/

Trump's fake 'facts' and misdirection will not help him in a Court of Law.

Yes, I thought we had just been through this. Charges can be filed, convictions are another thing. 

[johnnybangkok]

6 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

I think you’re ignoring facts. Immigrants absolutely can apply for asylum. 

No one is saying that they absolutely can't as US and international law strictly forbids it (much to the annoyance of the Trump administration no doubt) BUT the Trump administration is going out of their way to make it so difficult as to be nigh on impossible. 

The removal of children was an express policy to deter asylum seekers as well as illegal immigrants (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-discussed-separating-moms-kids-deter-asylum-seekers-feb-n884371).

Even if immigrants try to do it 'the right way, they still can't do it (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17428640/border-families-asylum-illegal).

They are being actively discouraged through prolonged detention, being separated from their children and being kept in inhumane conditions (https://www.thenation.com/article/ice-is-sending-a-message-to-the-worlds-asylum-seekers-the-us-is-no-place-of-refuge/).

No one is saying that people with spurious asylum claims shouldn't be deterred BUT Trumps administration is throwing the baby out with the bath water and desperately trying to prove that EVERYONE is an illegal immigrant regardless of their status. Whether it's Sessions overturning a rule for those fleeing domestic and gang violence to ICE detaining asylum seekers as illegal immigrants, it is very obvious what the Trump administration wants; zero immigrants allowed into the US, regardless of the legality of the situation.  

[bushdoctor]

I am within walking distance of the San Ysidro Port of Entry right now. I’m from this area. At times there are literally too many people at this crossing to process. I myself have had to wait over three hours just to walk through and I have a RFID passport card, which allows me into a special line called the “ready lane”, which is supposed to be quicker than the general line. 

 

The US allows a certain number of refugees in every year, but they are under no obligation to accept unlimited numbers. 

 

Don’t think most immigrants are refugees. About 20% might be trying for asylum and many of them are doing it because they think that gives them a better shot. But most don’t qualify. 

 

“Asylum has three basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country.^[3] Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group. Third, an applicant must establish that the government is either involved in the persecution, or unable to control the conduct of private actors.”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_United_States

 

Those who choose to break the law and sneak in are prosecuted. Why is this so hard to understand? 

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

I am within walking distance of the San Ysidro Port of Entry right now. I’m from this area. At times there are literally too many people at this crossing to process. I myself have had to wait over three hours just to walk through and I have a RFID passport card, which allows me into a special line called the “ready lane”, which is supposed to be quicker than the general line. 

 

The US allows a certain number of refugees in every year, but they are under no obligation to accept unlimited numbers. 

 

Don’t think most immigrants are refugees. About 20% might be trying for asylum and many of them are doing it because they think that gives them a better shot. But most don’t qualify. 

 

“Asylum has three basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country.^[3] Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group. Third, an applicant must establish that the government is either involved in the persecution, or unable to control the conduct of private actors.”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_United_States

 

Those who choose to break the law and sneak in are prosecuted. Why is this so hard to understand? 

Because there's ample evidence that the Trump administration is purpose making it harder to do so legitimately.

[bushdoctor]

Meanwhile Angela Merkel is given an ultimatum and may lose her job. Her allies are demanding she start turning away asylum seekers....

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/18/europe/merkel-seehofer-migration-intl/index.html

[johnnybangkok]

2 minutes ago, bushdoctor said:

I am within walking distance of the San Ysidro Port of Entry right now. I’m from this area. At times there are literally too many people at this crossing to process. I myself have had to wait over three hours just to walk through and I have a RFID passport card, which allows me into a special line called the “ready lane”, which is supposed to be quicker than the general line. 

 

The US allows a certain number of refugees in every year, but they are under no obligation to accept unlimited numbers. 

 

Don’t think most immigrants are refugees. About 20% might be trying for asylum and many of them are doing it because they think that gives them a better shot. But most don’t qualify. 

 

“Asylum has three basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country.^[3] Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group. Third, an applicant must establish that the government is either involved in the persecution, or unable to control the conduct of private actors.”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_United_States

 

Those who choose to break the law and sneak in are prosecuted. Why is this so hard to understand? 

I think I've tried to explain myself on numerous occasions so if you want to continue and justify the unjustifiable then who am I to stand in the way of your delusion. 

But just remember America once extolled "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free.' 

If you think that's the America that Trump is trying to achieve then he's got a very funny way of going about it.   

[bushdoctor]

The inscription you refer to isn’t a law. It also didn’t ask it to be done illegally, and it was in a different era. Much has changed since then. 

 

Look what out of control immigration has done to Europe. The current US president doesn’t want to make the same mistake.