UK to warn public every week over 'no-deal Brexit': The Times

[vogie]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

And why is it a poisoned chalice? That's because there is no good outcome for the UK. Just some that are less bad than others.

As I've said before, she (May) is trying to please everybody and she is pleasing no-one, but whilst we have people like JRM we have a little hope.

[bristolboy]

Just now, vogie said:

As I've said before, she (May) is trying to please everybody and she is pleasing no-one, but whilst we have people like JRM we have a little hope.

You called it a poisoned chalice. You praised JRM's intelligence for staying out of it. Why is that intelligent. Presumably, if he were in charge the most likely outcome would be a hard brexit. Unless that's a bad thing, why characterize it as a "poisoned chalice"?

[zaphod reborn]

59 minutes ago, evadgib said:

When did a state ever try leaving the union?

I want UK to get on with it.

California has attempted a succession referendum and a referendum to split it into 3 states.  Both have failed to pass constitutional muster.  Just prior to the Civil War, 11 states passed succession referendums and 2 failed.  In Texas v. White (1869) SCOTUS essentially ruled that the Texas referendum was unconstitutional as it required a nation-wide referendum as well. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

You called it a poisoned chalice. You praised JRM's intelligence for staying out of it. Why is that intelligent. Presumably, if he were in charge the most likely outcome would be a hard brexit. Unless that's a bad thing, why characterize it as a "poisoned chalice"?

I could hardly call it a pomander.

With JRM on the back benches it could still be an hard brexit, do you think he has no influence from where he is sat.

[bristolboy]

Just now, vogie said:

I could hardly call it a pomander.

With JRM on the back benches it could still be an hard brexit, do you think he has no influence from where he is sat.

I have no doubt he could influence that. And being on the back bench he could avoid the blame. But why would he want to avoid taking the credit for something he sees as vastly preferable to staying in the single market, or the customs union or...You and I agree. It's a poisoned chalice. And whoever is held to be responsible for it is not going to have much of a political career afterwards.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

I have no doubt he could influence that. And being on the back bench he could avoid the blame. But why would he want to avoid taking the credit for something he sees as vastly preferable to staying in the single market, or the customs union or...You and I agree. It's a poisoned chalice. And whoever is held to be responsible for it is not going to have much of a political career afterwards.

Yes I actually agree with you, May has messed up from day one, and her career will be over, unless she changes her stance on brexit and leaves the EU without one foot stuck in the EU door.

[bristolboy]

52 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes I actually agree with you, May has messed up from day one, and her career will be over, unless she changes her stance on brexit and leaves the EU without one foot stuck in the EU door.

Well, since in your opinon a hard brexit is a good thing that will be good for May's career, why doesn't JRM go for it himself?

[Retiredandhappyhere]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Well that is all very well to say but nobody is prepared to take on Brexit.  The whinging Rees Mogg and his chums won't do it because they know that getting the Brexit you are talking about is unachievable.  A leadership challenge would see her out of the door in a heartbeat but nobody will take on the impossible to deliver a "positive" Brexit.  All they could  achieve would be no deal and none of them will put their name to that.  Johnsons pathetic resignation speech suggested that May should change tack but not a word about stepping aside.

 

It is looking more and more like a simple "No Deal" or "No Brexit" but both sides have said that a no deal scenario would be bad news!

There will be a deal at the eleventh hour.  That is how the EU does  its business.  All this "no deal" nonsense is just bluff and counter-bluff.  Both parties NEED a deal.  There will be no real winners and no real losers.   No-one will be completely happy, but the UK will be OUT.

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The law that was enacted to facilitate the referendum clearly described it as "advisory".

 

But some want to insist it was a once and for all, can never be reversed or challenged, first past the post, binding vote. Strangely there the ones who happen to like the result! 

 

Joke in a representative democracy.

Under UK law a referendum outcome cannot impose the government to act on it. It would have to be agreed by parliament and receive the Queen's permission, which is what TM achieved. Why? is most likely her gung-ho ambition to outdo Thatcher and to prove she would go down in history as wonder-woman in the eyes of her Tory party.

 

I fear she will go down in history, for the morass Brexit will cause, and why no Tory minister or backbencher would try and usurp her until the morass happens. Then it will get interesting.

[stephenterry]

38 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

There will be a deal at the eleventh hour.  That is how the EU does  its business.  All this "no deal" nonsense is just bluff and counter-bluff.  Both parties NEED a deal.  There will be no real winners and no real losers.   No-one will be completely happy, but the UK will be OUT.

That's one outcome - and probably the most pragmatic. But don't bet your house on it. Particularly, for the UK if parliament's meaningful vote rejects it, and possibly if Spain rejects Gibraltar from leaving the EU, or the Irish border situation is not resolved. 

 

There are many hurdles to overcome, yet.

[Basil B]

Please remember 48% of those who voted did not vote for this crap...

[bristolboy]

45 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Please remember 48% of those who voted did not vote for this crap...

Nigel Farage is with you on that one.

[Basil B]

27 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Nigel Farage is with you on that one.

Are you saying he did not vote leave?

[bristolboy]

14 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Are you saying he did not vote leave?

No.I'm saying he specifically said that if Brexit lost by 52 to 48 he wouldn't accept that as definitive.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

There will be a deal at the eleventh hour.  That is how the EU does  its business.  All this "no deal" nonsense is just bluff and counter-bluff.  Both parties NEED a deal.  There will be no real winners and no real losers.   No-one will be completely happy, but the UK will be OUT.

 

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

That's one outcome - and probably the most pragmatic. But don't bet your house on it. Particularly, for the UK if parliament's meaningful vote rejects it, and possibly if Spain rejects Gibraltar from leaving the EU, or the Irish border situation is not resolved. 

There are many hurdles to overcome, yet.

The EU has not been the problem in the negotiations. The problem is that the UK has not been able to get its act together to put together a coherent set of positions. Most of the problems have been internal to the UK government which has been negotiating with itself and then putting up suggestions which were dead on arrival but at least allowed the UK to kick its own cans down the road until time starts to run out. It is because the UK has been consistently falling over itself that the EU (and the BoE) has had to make plans for a no-agreement. A last minute agreement? Maybe, but I am not betting on this one.

[SheungWan]

No deal means the pound gets a really bad kicking. That is the immediate impact for expats just as it was when the Brexit vote came through. Those who are able to hedge the outcome may be advised to do so while the markets have not discounted the outcome. Its an 'up-to-you' scenario.

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

Whatever you think of JRM, he is a very clever man and doesn't deserve to be called "whinging." Why would JRM take over the 'poison chalice' when he can control May from the back benches. He is the one that added the amendments to the white paper, with a little help from his friends of course. It made the white paper more of a realistic brexit and what we voted for. I can understand why you don't like him though, he must be to the remainers what Gina Millar is to the leavers.

Cynical bastard who will push for Dickensian standards as long as he and his pals make a shilling.

[Guest]

Where are the UK leaders who can put stop to this madness?

 

[nontabury]

On 7/20/2018 at 10:23 AM, oilinki said:

Remember to stock up essential supplies like food and medicine for next year's brexit.

 

Some smaller and middle sized companies might fall, but the big companies should be able to handle the exit turmoil. 

 

On the other side, people will be missing your excellent Scottish whiskeys. Red wine it is then.

Well as a citizen of another E.U. country, I’m not at all surprised that you want the U.K to remain in the hated E.U. £££££

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Well as a citizen of another E.U. country, I’m not at all surprised that you want the U.K to remain in the hated E.U. £££££

I'm Finnish, where are you from? Russia?

 

[Nigel Garvie]

9 hours ago, Small Joke said:

I made airfix spitfires, I'm a boomer from a former right wing background, and I voted remain.  

Fair play to you. As I'm sure you guessed my over simplified characterisation of the ageing Brexiteer was tongue in cheek, and intended to be more in humour than disdain. Indeed the Spitfire was a fine plane in it's day, and I also made Airfix models in my youth. For many years I have made musical instruments in my workshop, so possibly the experience was informative!

[nontabury]

12 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Where are the UK leaders who can put stop to this madness?

 

You will not find them in Finland,that’s for sure.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You will not find them in Finland,that’s for sure.

Is this your way of saying that you are Russian?

 

If you are, there is nothing to be ashamed about it. I like russian people. Well I like their honesty and logical thinking. I don't like their way of behaving like lost children of violent generation.

[nauseus]

13 hours ago, zaphod reborn said:

Civil War, 11 states passed

 

13 hours ago, zaphod reborn said:

California has attempted a succession referendum and a referendum to split it into 3 states.  Both have failed to pass constitutional muster.  Just prior to the Civil War, 11 states passed succession referendums and 2 failed.  In Texas v. White (1869) SCOTUS essentially ruled that the Texas referendum was unconstitutional as it required a nation-wide referendum as well. 

We had a nationwide referendum. What is your point?

[zaphod reborn]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

We had a nationwide referendum. What is your point?

In America, the courts have set up standards and requirements with respect to referendums and issues of succession.  The Brexit vote was inherently flawed because it provided no direction as to how the government was supposed to handle issues of trade and governance post-Brexit.  That's why Brexit will fail, because no one knows whether it was supposed to be a hard-Brexit or soft-Brexit.

[geriatrickid]

On 7/20/2018 at 4:11 PM, Laughing Gravy said:

Great Project fear ever week. No surprise there from TM Remainer. Get her out. Get someone who believes in Brexit or keep with TM who will do her best to endure the UK stays in the EU or will do the EUs bidding and go for another referendum until they get the right result.

The government has a moral and legal obligation to warn the public. In this way the public can be prepared. To not do so would be irresponsible.  The brexit lobby must accept the fact that  the departure was never going to be smooth and without significant cost. 

[geriatrickid]

4 minutes ago, zaphod reborn said:

In America, the courts have set up standards and requirements with respect to referendums and issues of succession.  The Brexit vote was inherently flawed because it provided no direction as to how the government was supposed to handle issues of trade and governance post-Brexit.  That's why Brexit will fail, because no one knows whether it was supposed to be a hard-Brexit or soft-Brexit.

It was always going to be a hard exit. It's just that no one on the pro brexit side wanted to discuss it. There will be benefits, but they will come later and after some  very hard times. Unfortunately, in today's world, people will not accept  hardship for a few years. On the other hand, the screwing over of the UK by the parasites of the EU like Belgium , Romania and Luxembourg could not continue.

[zaphod reborn]

3 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

It was always going to be a hard exit. It's just that no one on the pro brexit side wanted to discuss it. There will be benefits, but they will come later and after some  very hard times. Unfortunately, in today's world, people will not accept  hardship for a few years. On the other hand, the screwing over of the UK by the parasites of the EU like Belgium , Romania and Luxembourg could not continue.

Please point out any language in the referendum that proves the electorate were given a choice as to how Brexit was supposed to be aministered.  The problem is the UK has a very short history of referendums and the parliament and courts allowed a defective vote to proceed

Quote

Major referendums have been rare in the UK, and have only been held on major constitutional issues. Before Tony Blair's Labour government came to power in 1997, only four such referendums had been held. Historically referendums within the United Kingdom were opposed on the supposition that they violate the principle of parliamentary sovereignty.

 

[stevenl]

On 7/20/2018 at 3:11 PM, Laughing Gravy said:

Great Project fear ever week. No surprise there from TM Remainer. Get her out. Get someone who believes in Brexit or keep with TM who will do her best to endure the UK stays in the EU or will do the EUs bidding and go for another referendum until they get the right result.

With the referendum people didn't know what exactly they were voting for, and you now propose to keep them uninformed.

It is one of the government's jobs to make sure people know what is going to happen and give them a chance to prepare.

[Rimmer]

A derogatory post generalizing about Russians has been removed