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UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

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21 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

It is like it is.
If you no longer want to be a member of a club and do not like the club rules anymore, you step out.
Finished.

Fine. No problems with that. But don't whine about the consequences.

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14 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I won't argue with you but I'd love to see how the UK will be striking up all those trade deals. After a no deal Brexit they will have to start from scratch so a lot to catch up with.

How long do you think it will take for just one deal (with whatever country/trade bloc you like)? And how will the UK manage to do a lot of trade negotiations simultaneously?

So far, the UK doesn't seem that good in negotiating....

"So far, the UK doesn't seem that good in negotiating...."

 

Takes both parties to negotiate. If one just keeps saying "no" and offering no real contribution into discussing and resolving things then there is no negotiation.

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The 2016 referendum was advisory, not mandatory - it decided nothing. Mrs May has acted dishonestly from the start by pretending otherwise - and stupidly having painted herself into a corner where she feels bound to deliver some sort of brexit. A more honest approach would have left a much needed escape route. And escape we must.

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2 hours ago, vogie said:

Remainers don't like Joe Public voting, best leave it as it is and just leave.

The trouble with "leaving it as it is" is that no two people seem to agree precisely on what "as it is" means. Yes, the majority agreed to leave the EU. But that could mean anything from, on one hand, a very hard brexit with no bedding in period under WTO rules and no membership of institutions through various stages on the spectrum to, on the other hand, remaining within the single market and in most of the institutions (medicines, air traffic control, EU arrest warrant etc etc) but not as a member of the EU. Within this space there are probably a million positions. Throw in the Irish border and ways and means of safeguarding it and you have yet another dimension to argue over.

 

This is why no political party has a unified position on brexit (Lib Dems have at least a remainer position although I doubt you will find unanimity if you probe that too). The problem with asking Joe Public is the following:

a. you ask Joe Public whether he still wants to leave the EU and you engage the wrath of those who say that the question is not nuanced enough. It still does not get you around what kind of brexit he wants anyway.

b. you pick out several options for Joe Public to chose in a referendum (leaving out the remain option based on the first referendum and this yields no clear majority in favour of any. Besides you will have plenty of wrath from those who say that you missed out on some nuance or other. Besides the remainers will hate you for that too.

c. you include the remain option in b but you get remain winning but no clear majority.

 

This could go on and on.

My guess is that the government will fudge it but this will depend on when the economic bad news comes and we will get whatever comes out of that, anything from a hard brexit under WTO rules to a softer than Checkers brexit, depending on how it comes out the in parliamentary shuffle or if there is an election. But there will be no second referendum for the reasons given above, at least if the conservatives stay in power. If a Corbyn government takes over, all bets are off!

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19 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

Errr we had it. We voted to leave. So really we cant have another referendum on it until we've left. Good look with that Remoaners. 

Since the start of this charade it's clear that a hard Brexit would be the final result. 
So carry on Remoaners. Waaaa waaaa waaaa.

 

Yes the "advisory" referendum that Cameron brilliantly constructed.

 

Interesting to wonder what the whines of the Brexiters have been had to vote gone the other way. "Unfinished business" as Farage said.

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5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

"So far, the UK doesn't seem that good in negotiating...."

 

Takes both parties to negotiate. If one just keeps saying "no" and offering no real contribution into discussing and resolving things then there is no negotiation.

So what has the UK offered so far apart from cherry picking and trying to divide the 4 freedoms??

If you're not even remotely realistic you cannot expect much in negotiations. A deal has to be beneficial to the EU as well.

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5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

 

Takes both parties to negotiate. If one just keeps saying "no" and offering no real contribution into discussing and resolving things then there is no negotiation.

I think you are talking about Barnier

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3 minutes ago, flossie35 said:

The 2016 referendum was advisory, not mandatory - it decided nothing. Mrs May has acted dishonestly from the start by pretending otherwise - and stupidly having painted herself into a corner where she feels bound to deliver some sort of brexit. A more honest approach would have left a much needed escape route. And escape we must.

 

Indeed she did. Even trying to circumvent parliamentary procedure and wasting tax payers money by going through the courts to the Supreme Court to try and achieve her aim.

 

The results of the 'advisory" referendum should have been debated and voted on by our representative MP's.

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28 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Fine. No problems with that. But don't whine about the consequences.

I agree.
The problems will be huge. But the brexiters have foreseen that. Therefore, the loudes speakers (boris, nigel) have also immediately pinched there tails and leave TM the dirty job.

Real heroes the brexit leaders.

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3 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

So what has the UK offered so far apart from cherry picking and trying to divide the 4 freedoms??

If you're not even remotely realistic you cannot expect much in negotiations. A deal has to be beneficial to the EU as well.

 

What has the EU offered - nothing. Not one suggestion other than threats and demanding large (and unsubstantiated) sums of money. 

 

The biggest (and most neglected by the media) area of contention is law. The attempted imposition of EU law on the UK after Brexit kills it - and the EU know it.

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4 minutes ago, sungod said:

I think you are talking about Barnier

 

He was specifically picked as a known obstinate anti British French politician who would follow Juncker's instructions.

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1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

So be it. 

 

Thats what democracy is. 

So there will never be a decision on whether to leave or to stay, as the referenda cycle would go on for ever, thereby achieving your preferred option by default?

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I hope the UK makes another referendum on the abolition of all taxes. I think there is also a majority. Would certainly be more exciting than Brexit in the implementation. 

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45 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I won't argue with you but I'd love to see how the UK will be striking up all those trade deals. After a no deal Brexit they will have to start from scratch so a lot to catch up with.

How long do you think it will take for just one deal (with whatever country/trade bloc you like)? And how will the UK manage to do a lot of trade negotiations simultaneously?

So far, the UK doesn't seem that good in negotiating....

Unfortunately, negotiating with the EU appears to be just one-way traffic.  They insist that we come up with all the proposals so that they can shoot them down.  Exactly what suggestions or proposals have the EU come up with, particularly regarding the Irish border problem, which is one of the major stumbling blocks?   Have they made any suggestions at all, which are not totally negative?

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21 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What has the EU offered - nothing. Not one suggestion other than threats and demanding large (and unsubstantiated) sums of money. 

 

The biggest (and most neglected by the media) area of contention is law. The attempted imposition of EU law on the UK after Brexit kills it - and the EU know it.

The UK voted to leave, not the EU. And if the UK still wants to keep part of the benefits yes, they would be subject to the ECJ.

The EU wants a deal, but not one that is good for the UK but bad for the EU.

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