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UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

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37 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

It would be an interesting economic experiment.

Looking forward to the UK applying for rejoining the EU after a couple of years.

Please don't hold your breath till we do. ???

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37 minutes ago, flossie35 said:

The 2016 referendum was advisory, not mandatory - it decided nothing. Mrs May has acted dishonestly from the start by pretending otherwise - and stupidly having painted herself into a corner where she feels bound to deliver some sort of brexit. A more honest approach would have left a much needed escape route. And escape we must.

No it wasn't, 

 

 

govt-eu-leaflet-promise.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Unfortunately, negotiating with the EU appears to be just one-way traffic.  They insist that we come up with all the proposals so that they can shoot them down.  Exactly what suggestions or proposals have the EU come up with, particularly regarding the Irish border problem, which is one of the major stumbling blocks?   Have they made any suggestions at all, which are not totally negative?

and why should the EU accept a boarder solution that is bad for them?

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As I understand it, Article 50 made no specific mention of a leaving country's continuing, or one-off, legal obligation to pay for some of the EU's future costs, whether budgetted for during membership or not.

 

On the understanding that an offer to pay about 45 billions pounds as a divorce settlement would enable the EU to be reasonable in future trade negotiations, the UK provisionally agreed to pay, on the understanding , as the EU have stated many times, "that nothing is agreed until everything has been agreed". 

 

On that basis, if there is no deal, then the UK should simply withdraw its offer, since goodwill only makes sense when it comes from both sides. 

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8 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Unfortunately, negotiating with the EU appears to be just one-way traffic.  They insist that we come up with all the proposals so that they can shoot them down.  Exactly what suggestions or proposals have the EU come up with, particularly regarding the Irish border problem, which is one of the major stumbling blocks?   Have they made any suggestions at all, which are not totally negative?

So the UK wants to leave but the EU has to come up with proposals and solutions???? Strange logic.

And about the Irish border; the EU did come up with solutions but the UK only with red lines.

 

I would really love to see a hard no deal Brexit so the UK government has to sort out its own mess.

Just feel very sorry for the people that voted remain or could not vote at all and still have to suffer the consequences.

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4 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

and why should the EU accept a boarder solution that is bad for them?

Because they have had no trouble operating similar borders with other countries.  They do not like the UK proposal because it comes from a country that wants to leave their exclusive club and that hurts their ego as well as their finances and, horror of horror, might even encourage other doubters to consider leaving also.  I wonder what the situation would be if all remaining 27 countries were to be offered a "leave or remain" referendum?  I doubt that the result would be a resounding 27 to 0 in favour of staying.  Yes, the leaders seem to be in favour of staying, like Cameron, but what exactly happened to the risk that he took?  Other leaders are too scared to offer their people the same option.

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4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

So the UK wants to leave but the EU has to come up with proposals and solutions???? Strange logic.

And about the Irish border; the EU did come up with solutions but the UK only with red lines.

 

I would really love to see a hard no deal Brexit so the UK government has to sort out its own mess.

Just feel very sorry for the people that voted remain or could not vote at all and still have to suffer the consequences.

A similar situation to any General Election, where you vote for the party of your choice and then you and the opposition voters have to put up with the consequences. People understand that, just as they did with the Brexit referendum.  Many people voted "out" in the referendum, because they understood exactly what the EU stood for and where it was headed, and subsequent events have proved that they were right.

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2 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Because they have had no trouble operating similar borders with other countries.  They do not like the UK proposal because it comes from a country that wants to leave their exclusive club and that hurts their ego as well as their finances and, horror of horror, might even encourage other doubters to consider leaving also.  I wonder what the situation would be if all remaining 27 countries were to be offered a "leave or remain" referendum?  I doubt that the result would be a resounding 27 to 0 in favour of staying.  Yes, the leaders seem to be in favour of staying, like Cameron, but what exactly happened to the risk that he took?  Other leaders are too scared to offer their people the same option.

The EU just wants to prevent that criminals pirates smuggling substandard products duty-free into the EU. That's not difficult to understand.

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Johnny Bull was a member of a club, a quite senior member who was made treasurer.  One day he decided that he didn't like being a member, didn't like paying for membership and didn't like the club's rules. 

"I'm leaving" he said. 

"Oh" said Herman, the club president, "are you sure?  We'll be sorry to see you go". 

"Yes", said Johnny, "I've had enough, I want to form my own club of one.  But, by the way, I still want to be able to come in and use the facilities whenever I choose, and still expect to be treasurer". 

"Well", said Herman, "you can't be treasurer any more if you're not a member. We'll nominate my cousin, Freddy Frankfurter for that job now. You may occasionally use the facilities as a non-member, but we'll have to negotiate some sort of pay-per-usage deal with you in order to do so". 

"What?" said Johnny, "How dare you!  I demand to be able to still walk in whenever I like!  My great grandfather was a man of substance, I'll have you know!" 

"If you don't like it", said Herman, "then you can leave without any rights to the facilities, though we'd like you to settle your bill before doing so". 

"But they're the only facilities in town" moaned Johnny.  I have a right to use them". 

"Come back when you have a reasonable offer to pay for their use then" said Herman.  "While we're at it, you must also promise to keep your back garden gate unlocked so little Seamus O'Reilly can get his ball back whenever he kicks it over the fence".

 

And here we are...

 

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1 hour ago, smedly said:

what deal ? - they didn't vote for a deal they voted to leave period, that was what the referendum was for - leave the EU or stay in, nothing about a deal, nothing about soft/hard they voted to leave the EU period

 

If a trade deal can be sorted out with the EU after we leave then fine - do they get a vote on that ? do they get a vote on trade deals with China - USA - Australia - India - Japan ?????? are you proposing there is a referendum every time the UK negotiates a trade deal with another country ?

 

A trade deal with the EU is not and never should have been part of the leaving process - it is exactly what has confused the issue, there is nothing in ART 50 that requires any sort of trade deal, the referendum did not say "leaving the EU with a trade deal" or staying in, of course certain divisive people continue to say the people didn't know what they voted for - that is a fundamental lie, everyone knew exactly what leaving meant, we have people like Anna Soubry constantly trying to justify themselves by making this claim - it is absolute nonsense - she was elected by her constituents on the CON manifesto that clearly stated leaving the EU - she was elected and now stands in the house doing the exact opposite and her constituents that voted her in to that seat cannot remove her until another General Election - politically she is finished along with her band of supporters in the house

 

Those MP's across the house that refuse to accept the will of the people and the clear result of the referendum should have joined the Libdems 

 

People keep referring to Mogg and the other leave supporters in the house as rebels when in fact all they are doing is supporting the result of the referendum - they are hardly rebels, it is the other crew that are ignoring the result are the ones causing all the problems in the house. and there is equal confusion in the LAB party it just doesn't get exposed so much because they are not in government.  

It’s quite simple. 

 

People should have the right to vote on any final brexit deal. 

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1 hour ago, Rally123 said:

Errr we had it. We voted to leave. So really we cant have another referendum on it until we've left. Good look with that Remoaners. 

Since the start of this charade it's clear that a hard Brexit would be the final result. 
So carry on Remoaners. Waaaa waaaa waaaa.

Err...there was a vote. 

 

That does not preclude another, especially one where the full consequences of leaving are clear. 

 

Why be so scared?

 

Surely you believe you’ll win again 

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1 hour ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

So there will never be a decision on whether to leave or to stay, as the referenda cycle would go on for ever, thereby achieving your preferred option by default?

If you bother to read the thread, you’ll see I have made clear that as i do not live in the U.K., I do not feel I should vote either way. 

 

However, I cannot comprehend authoritarian brexiteer thinking that precludes any further votes.  

 

Especially ones on a final deal. 

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1 hour ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Unfortunately, negotiating with the EU appears to be just one-way traffic.  They insist that we come up with all the proposals so that they can shoot them down.  Exactly what suggestions or proposals have the EU come up with, particularly regarding the Irish border problem, which is one of the major stumbling blocks?   Have they made any suggestions at all, which are not totally negative?

The Irish government from the moment brexit was voted on tried to negotiate a deal with the U.K. govt over the border. 

 

The uk govt did nothing to settle this issue until it was too late. 

 

They knew there were huge concerns in Eire. 

 

They were offered the chance to have a temporary/ad hoc arrangement where issues could be settled on a case by case basis. 

 

Yet they did nothing. 

 

Not a thing. 

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44 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

It’s quite simple. 

 

People should have the right to vote on any final brexit deal. 

what deal ? you keep talking about a deal, the only deal being discussed is a trade deal, that has nothing to do with leaving the EU, like I said already - do you think there should be a referendum every time the UK negotiates a trade deal ? that would be an awful lot of referendums, you really are talking nonsense 

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1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What has the EU offered - nothing. Not one suggestion other than threats and demanding large (and unsubstantiated) sums of money. 

 

The biggest (and most neglected by the media) area of contention is law. The attempted imposition of EU law on the UK after Brexit kills it - and the EU know it.

eg if. a uk fruit trader imports chemically contaminated fruit into the uk and then sells it unchecked in the eu, and i get seriously ill, i want to be able to sue the trader in the eu for damage money and under eu law. Under uk law i have to prove the intent of the deliberate intention.

 

I'm surprised that many believe the uk would have better consumer protection laws.

This is an erroneous belief.

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