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BANGKOK 19 March 2019 12:30
macb

Training Your Dog

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nienke,

u dont need a clicker per se; u can use anything in place of it that is a specific sound or signal so no need to buy one. a bell or a particular whistle or a flashing light or whatever, since u are using it only as a marker ('good') ; even a pen click sound can be used (u know, the ball point pen click )... or the knocking sound of a collar clip (the bigger ones used for atttatching a lead to a collar)...

bina

So, I'm gonna try to reply again. Lost my post 2 days ago and was sooooo pissed off :o

Anyway ... Of course, one don't need a clicker per se. Dolphins and other mammals are trained with a flute, so far I know. And I don't think that one would come far in training a goldfish with a clicker, they use some kind of flashing light.

Some people prefer to use a tongue click, as your tongue is always close by (at least I hope so :D ) I've noticed by myself that I'm better in timing with a clicker than with a tongue click. A pen click should be ok, but again for some reason I'm more comfortable with a clicker than with a pen.

If I think of a bell, I think of such a clock thing with a clapper. That gives too much and too long a sound. Therefore, it's not too clear to the dog. Plus it sometimes doesn't work if the bell is not moved properly (if you understand what I mean).

With the knocking sound of a collar clip, it's difficult to time the 'click' as there is always a long piece of lead in between, and it doesn't work if your dog isn't on the lead. Or you mean you have that clip as a device in your hand, that could be possible.

A flute could be used as well, so far I know they use that in training hunting dogs. But then again, it seems to me not pratical as it's all about the timing. If you have a flute around your neck and then at the right moment need to put the flute in the mouth before you can wistle, you're too late with giving the signal. Or you need to have the flute in your mouth all the time, and then talking becomes difficult, IMO.

It's just that from my experience and the many discussions that I've followed through the years on the use of a clicker vs other devices, I really prefer to work with the clicker. It's because it's fairly easy to use, it has a very neutral, clear and specific sound, and you can time very well with the clicker, and thus easy to understand for the dog.

So, in other words, I prefer to work with the clicker :D .

Nienke

Edited by Nienke

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right, the thing u use to attach a collar to a lead but held in your hand as a clicker; bell - well, we use a small tingling bell like an old fashioned dinner bell that goes in a pocket (it works for goats since they think of bottles of milk or food pellets or ice cream when they here the bell)... and i always felt stupid buying something that 1. gets lost constantly or misplacedc in ithe wrong pocket; b. difficult to replace where i live so actually expensive ...

tongue is good since most people do have them, they dont get lost (the same arguement against using pacifiers and using a thumb instead) break, or have to be preplaced... ::o))

speaking of which, my lhasa likes to use a pacifier!!!

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right, the thing u use to attach a collar to a lead but held in your hand as a clicker; bell - well, we use a small tingling bell like an old fashioned dinner bell that goes in a pocket (it works for goats since they think of bottles of milk or food pellets or ice cream when they here the bell)... and i always felt stupid buying something that 1. gets lost constantly or misplacedc in ithe wrong pocket; b. difficult to replace where i live so actually expensive ...

That's classical or 'Pavlovian 'conditioning allright, but IMO it is not handy when training for certain behaviors and you need to catch a moment within 1/3 of a second that the desired behavior is shown. And that's why I prefer the clicker which has the same problems though with getting lost, wrong pocket and for those who don't have a box full of clickers at home, yep, it is also not that easy to replace here in Thailand :o

But again this is MY preference and from those who are way much better than I am.

Nienke

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I have a few questions.

I am having my first (own) dog soon.Had plenty whe i was a kid....

And i want her to be well behaved.

But how old should a dog be before you can start training it.

And is there something you can do already as a small pup.

She will be 2 months when i get her.

Thanks

Nicolai

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I have a few questions.

I am having my first (own) dog soon.Had plenty whe i was a kid....

And i want her to be well behaved.

But how old should a dog be before you can start training it.

And is there something you can do already as a small pup.

She will be 2 months when i get her.

Thanks

Nicolai

Hi Nicolai,

Education of a dog starts as soon as it enters its new house, whether that's a young puppy or an older dog. And there is an awfull lot you can do and have to do with such a young puppy.

Actually you start already BEFORE the puppy arrives:

* make your house and garden puppy proof. A puppy only knows what's safe and dangerous through learning experience. Think similar as if it's a toddler ... swimming pool/fishpond, poisonous liquids, electrical wiring. But also, puppies chew, play and explore. Think of the laundry, shoes, paws of chairs and tables. Forget about a beautifull garden for the first year of puppies life, or fence parts of.

* set rules on what the dog is allowed to do and what not. For example, jumping up is often learned by the puppy and unconciously taught by the owner during puppyhood. If you don't mind a 40 pound dog jump up at you after having danced through the mud, then there's is no problem. But if you don't be aware that you avoid this problem from developing from the moment the pup arrives. Plus, that everybody in your household has to follow the same rules.

* and that brings me to the following point, train yourself and your family member in being consistent, as consistency is a keypoint in a dog's (and human's) education.

* gather information, books, DVD's and info from the net on how to take care and educate a pup.

Puppy arrived:

* toilet training

* socialization with all sorts of people and children, other dogs and animals, traffic, and all the different environments and circumstances the dog can possibly encounter in its life. All experience should be positive ones in the mind of the puppy.

* puppy basic obedience course in a playful but clear and consistent way and in a dog friendly manner.

Contrary to a general believe, very young puppies do learn and they learn very fast. Many of the undesired behavior has their roots in early puppyhood, where it easily could ahve been avoided or guided in desired behavior.

I'll hope this gets you started :o

Nienke

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I have a few questions.

I am having my first (own) dog soon.Had plenty whe i was a kid....

And i want her to be well behaved.

But how old should a dog be before you can start training it.

And is there something you can do already as a small pup.

She will be 2 months when i get her.

Thanks

Nicolai

Hi Nicolai,

Education of a dog starts as soon as it enters its new house, whether that's a young puppy or an older dog. And there is an awfull lot you can do and have to do with such a young puppy.

Actually you start already BEFORE the puppy arrives:

* make your house and garden puppy proof. A puppy only knows what's safe and dangerous through learning experience. Think similar as if it's a toddler ... swimming pool/fishpond, poisonous liquids, electrical wiring. But also, puppies chew, play and explore. Think of the laundry, shoes, paws of chairs and tables. Forget about a beautifull garden for the first year of puppies life, or fence parts of.

* set rules on what the dog is allowed to do and what not. For example, jumping up is often learned by the puppy and unconciously taught by the owner during puppyhood. If you don't mind a 40 pound dog jump up at you after having danced through the mud, then there's is no problem. But if you don't be aware that you avoid this problem from developing from the moment the pup arrives. Plus, that everybody in your household has to follow the same rules.

* and that brings me to the following point, train yourself and your family member in being consistent, as consistency is a keypoint in a dog's (and human's) education.

* gather information, books, DVD's and info from the net on how to take care and educate a pup.

Puppy arrived:

* toilet training

* socialization with all sorts of people and children, other dogs and animals, traffic, and all the different environments and circumstances the dog can possibly encounter in its life. All experience should be positive ones in the mind of the puppy.

* puppy basic obedience course in a playful but clear and consistent way and in a dog friendly manner.

Contrary to a general believe, very young puppies do learn and they learn very fast. Many of the undesired behavior has their roots in early puppyhood, where it easily could ahve been avoided or guided in desired behavior.

I'll hope this gets you started :o

Nienke

It certainly will.

Thanks.

I will post more when i most propably need more help:-)

Cheers

Nicolai(soon with thailands first bichon havanese)

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I have a puppy about 5 months old. It needs training. It has attached itself to my girlfriend. It has very clearly understood and exploits the fact that she never insists on obedience. She simply coddles and indulges it.

I want to train the pup; beginning with basic obedience. By that I mean simply to come when called. At present he won't unless he feels like it, or if he finds he can't run to my girlfriend instead. If he senses any insistence/frustration in my voice he simply looks to run away or to seek refuge with my girlfriend.

For the most part I can get my girlfriend to cooperate in at least not interfering with my training.

The pup is a miniature pinscher and very intelligent. Maybe this breed isn't a trainable one.

I'd really appreciate advice on the random thoughts below - or otherwize.

Should I refrain from training for now, spend a month or so spoiling it so it becomes as much at ease and secure with me as with my girlfriend - and then start the training?

Should I do bouts of obedience training where 1) the pup has nowhere to run away to, and 2) my girlfriend is not in sight?

Should I simply use friendly repetition and reward the response? Or should there be a degree of authority/insistence in my voice?

Should I insist that my girlfriend change her ways with the pup, or is it possible for the pup to adopt a dominat role with her but accept an obedient role with me?

Sometimes I'm tempted to give up, get another pup which I keep the gf away from, and which I can train from the outset. (This one spent its early monthsw with her.) But is it possible for an obedient, trained pup to live happily in the same house with a spoilt disobedient one?

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I have a puppy about 5 months old. It needs training. It has attached itself to my girlfriend. It has very clearly understood and exploits the fact that she never insists on obedience. She simply coddles and indulges it.

I want to train the pup; beginning with basic obedience. By that I mean simply to come when called. At present he won't unless he feels like it, or if he finds he can't run to my girlfriend instead. If he senses any insistence/frustration in my voice he simply looks to run away or to seek refuge with my girlfriend.

For the most part I can get my girlfriend to cooperate in at least not interfering with my training.

The pup is a miniature pinscher and very intelligent. Maybe this breed isn't a trainable one.

I'd really appreciate advice on the random thoughts below - or otherwize.

Should I refrain from training for now, spend a month or so spoiling it so it becomes as much at ease and secure with me as with my girlfriend - and then start the training?

Should I do bouts of obedience training where 1) the pup has nowhere to run away to, and 2) my girlfriend is not in sight?

Should I simply use friendly repetition and reward the response? Or should there be a degree of authority/insistence in my voice?

Should I insist that my girlfriend change her ways with the pup, or is it possible for the pup to adopt a dominat role with her but accept an obedient role with me?

Sometimes I'm tempted to give up, get another pup which I keep the gf away from, and which I can train from the outset. (This one spent its early monthsw with her.) But is it possible for an obedient, trained pup to live happily in the same house with a spoilt disobedient one?

All dogs are trainable : reading your post I get the impression that you have not read my training guide which start at the Top :

Read this first it covers all aspects of training :

If you have read my apologies, then it means you have not understood : Let me know then we will take it from there

Cheers

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i have found it a lot easier to train bitches than dogs ,anyone else found this

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All dogs are trainable : reading your post I get the impression that you have not read my training guide which start at the Top :

Read this first it covers all aspects of training :

If you have read my apologies, then it means you have not understood : Let me know then we will take it from there

Cheers

I did read your initial training posts. But I thought that before getting even to the first lesson on walking the dog on a leash I needed to teach him to come when he is called. But thinking about it now I think you will say the basic obedience comes as part and parcel of the specific lessons - walking, sitting, etc.

Ok. So I'll do that.

The dog is tiny, just 5 months old and of a nervous disposition (miniature pischer breed characteristic perhaps).

Shall I wait till he's older or start the training now?

Can I buy the appropriate chain easily at a thai shop?

Given that he's a nervous and completely unaccustomed to training and a leash how short/long should the sessions be?

I appreciate your interest. But I will go through your posts again carefully and try to apply them to the pup.

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Hi,

I would certainly start training, or better, educating him straight away. Do not wait. Because if you wait, chances are that undesired behavior develops more and roots in, making it more difficult to change it into desired behavior. What behavior is desired and undesired depends fully on the owner.

I definitely do not suggest to use a (choke) chain, but to use a good fitting leather or nylon collar and a 1.5 to 2 meter lead. Sometimes, I even start with a 5 meter lead, depending on the dog.

The most important part of training/education is having the attention of your dog. The way a dog pays attention can differ: in general, a) a dog keeps a close eye on the handler afraid for the next correction, jerk on the lead, or punishment, :o a dog keeps a close eye on the handler for the next exciting and enjoyable move.

Under A, the dog will show avoidence behavior. He keeps a good eye on the handler in order to avoid an unpleasant feeling, which is the correction. All to often a dog learns that off lead it can avoid this unpleasant behavior by keeping safe distance as soon as the handler signals irritation or worse.

At my kennel, I work according option B. I focus on desired behavior. For example, when my dogs come when I call them I ALWAYS reinforce this behavior by giving them a pet and or praise them. When I started the recall training I would give them a delicious treat as reward. Now, once their behavior has become reliable I mainly praise and/or pet, but on occasion they still get a treat, just to remind them that they better can come quickly when I call, as they never never know if something nice is awaiting them.

The treat needs to be delicious in the dog's mind which can differ under the circumstances, such as in the house he may find a piece of cheap hotdog something he really likes to come for but outside with loads of distraction it may be he won't come for that, but he may come for cheese, boiled chicken or salami. It is important, though, not to use the treat as a lure, meaning don't to show it to the dog. You give it only once he has come close enough to hand it over to him.

In the beginning you ALWAYS need to reward his coming with a delicious treat, making yourself reliable in the mind of the dog. Over time, and keep in mind that this is a step-by-step process, once the dog starts coming immediately on the recall you can start with only praising and petting, with sometimes the treat.

When I teach basic obedience at the kenel or as a dog-with-owner lesson program I always start with attention training. Without the attention of your dog, it is very difficult to get him/her to obey. Once I've taught the dog to pay full attention and to follow me where ever I go, it is actually a piece of cake to teach the dog to follow on the lead, as it is just a change of positioning yourself, not the dog. With punishment based training it is often the dog who is put/dragged into position, which is quite unpleasant to the dog.

With positive reinforcement training the dog will follow because it WANTS to follow, not because it has to follow.

Teaching a dog to obey does not occur only during training sessions on the training field. The most important part occurs during daily life and through a proper interaction with the owner, that is build on mutual respect and trust. For a proper interaction the owner needs to learn the basics about dog behavior (development), -language, hierarchy (in the dog's mind), etc.

Over the years I've trained several Min Pin's and they certainly are trainable. However, the younger you start the better.

Oh, and in answer to part of your question "if it is possible for the pup to adopt a dominant role with your gf": yes, that's certainly possible but not advisable, because if the dog gets a dominant role over your gf he can show this one day by aggression. After all, it is the right of a dominant one to protect that what he thinks is his, to protect his privileges, to ignore commands and tell the lower rank to back off when challenged.

And to the whole question "if it is possible for the pup to adopt a dominant role with your gf but accept an obedient role with me'': yes, that's also very possible. But as you can read the reason above, it is much better when the dog learns to accept the lowest rank in your household.

Nienke

Certified dog trainer

LuckyDogs

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Thanks Nienke for your full and very helpful reply.

I would appreciate your time in clarifying some general preliminary queries that come to mind as I read your post:

1) How do I teach the all-important 'paying attention'? Is this done on the leash, so that pretty much ensures I have his attention? How long should this go on at a time? Should I aim to succeed in this first step before attempting anything else? Or can this be done as part of the walking training (as per McB's first lesson)?

2) Is it helpful to the training (or likely to be traumatic) to keep the dog on a leash and under training for as long as possible during the day?

3) How can my girlfriend be most helpful to me? For example shall I tell her to ignore the dog if it runs to her for refuge? Or even to ignore him all the time until he is trained? (The latter will be hard to implement). And when I'm away, what then?

4) If the pup doesn't come when called - eg when he is outside - how do I respond? Ditto if he doesn't respond when he is indoors - ie when I could simply go across and get him?

5) Should one choose a purely reward based method? Is there any harm in mixing in the very occasional admonition with it? Only carrot, never stick?

6) How long should the training - at least the 100% coming when called - take? For a MinPin - such a nervous dog!! Not really my choice - she got it in my absence!! But I need to now train it to make it a normal household member.

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Thanks Nienke for your full and very helpful reply.

I would appreciate your time in clarifying some general preliminary queries that come to mind as I read your post:

1) How do I teach the all-important 'paying attention'? Is this done on the leash, so that pretty much ensures I have his attention? How long should this go on at a time? Should I aim to succeed in this first step before attempting anything else? Or can this be done as part of the walking training (as per McB's first lesson)?

2) Is it helpful to the training (or likely to be traumatic) to keep the dog on a leash and under training for as long as possible during the day?

3) How can my girlfriend be most helpful to me? For example shall I tell her to ignore the dog if it runs to her for refuge? Or even to ignore him all the time until he is trained? (The latter will be hard to implement). And when I'm away, what then?

4) If the pup doesn't come when called - eg when he is outside - how do I respond? Ditto if he doesn't respond when he is indoors - ie when I could simply go across and get him?

5) Should one choose a purely reward based method? Is there any harm in mixing in the very occasional admonition with it? Only carrot, never stick?

6) How long should the training - at least the 100% coming when called - take? For a MinPin - such a nervous dog!! Not really my choice - she got it in my absence!! But I need to now train it to make it a normal household member.

1. Rewarding with treats is part of what is called shutzun training, it never used to be acceptable in training Police dogs but now it is, I would find a play thing that the dog likes and would become possessive over ie for tug of war etc, once the little fella enjoys playing when you have the play article maybe an old rag your dog will come to you for play or toget his property.

2 You need to get the dog used to being on a lead, but not all the time used the lead in training sessions and for friendly fun walks, not leave on all the time ,you might want to leave a collar on for a while if the dog is not used to this.

3. You and your girlfriend need to bond with the dog together, if your away it is understandable that the dog will be closer to your girlfriend, really if your away for long periods then the main handler should be your g/f, sit together and play with the dog

4 It all takes time dont try to run before you can walk. the recall comes with the heel work, with you little dog you have got to scale down my training guide to suit him be gentle as he is nervous, you need to bond with him first.

5 command a praise verbally and with petting for reassurance with the hand, any light correction is done with the lead remeber your dog is nervous any over correction could make your dog worse and a step backwards command praise command praise with gentle voice and gentle petting

6 How long is a piece of string my friend, training should be little and often, but I think you got to Bond first because you have a nervous little dog, bitches I have found are not more difficult to train no more difficult than males but then I have never found over the years that training a dog was difficult anyway because of the reward and enjoyment I get from it

Hope this helps pal

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1. Rewarding with treats is part of what is called shutzun training, it never used to be acceptable in training Police dogs but now it is, I would find a play thing that the dog likes and would become possessive over ie for tug of war etc, once the little fella enjoys playing when you have the play article maybe an old rag your dog will come to you for play or toget his property.

2 You need to get the dog used to being on a lead, but not all the time used the lead in training sessions and for friendly fun walks, not leave on all the time ,you might want to leave a collar on for a while if the dog is not used to this.

3. You and your girlfriend need to bond with the dog together, if your away it is understandable that the dog will be closer to your girlfriend, really if your away for long periods then the main handler should be your g/f, sit together and play with the dog

4 It all takes time dont try to run before you can walk. the recall comes with the heel work, with you little dog you have got to scale down my training guide to suit him be gentle as he is nervous, you need to bond with him first.

5 command a praise verbally and with petting for reassurance with the hand, any light correction is done with the lead remeber your dog is nervous any over correction could make your dog worse and a step backwards command praise command praise with gentle voice and gentle petting

6 How long is a piece of string my friend, training should be little and often, but I think you got to Bond first because you have a nervous little dog, bitches I have found are not more difficult to train no more difficult than males but then I have never found over the years that training a dog was difficult anyway because of the reward and enjoyment I get from it

Hope this helps pal

Thanks Macb

I'll keep all that in mind too. Will try to get my gf on board too - as much as possible. But at present the dog is very attached to her and rather wary of me. So I don't want her there too much or the dog will not bother bonding with me at all.

le

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first:

having mostly worked with large animals and large dogs, i have been 'reprogrammed' in training ideas with our newest and most spoiled addition: foofoo the lhasa apso....

i am petite but am very dominant (size is all in the mind): so i learned to 'tone down' my voice, actions, etc: i got down to foofoo's eye level and spent time (15 minutes is a long time for a young dog) playing and gently handling him every day; i used nienke's treats method (i always keep something small and tasty in the pocket) and would call out: foofoo and when he would look at me, he got the snack (remember: dinky small pieces... the dog never notices if its a lot or a little, as long as he got the tasty tidbit, i mean fingernail size pieces) -- thats the start of attention training. to get him to notice u.

training is a daily minute by minute thing. it is not like u program the dog, and then it works. it is an ongoing forever process like raising a child. even a well behaved dog needs to have reinforcements for good behaviors and all dogs learn (from us usually) bad habits that have to be reshaped.

if u are calm, then the dog will calm down...

as for u and your girlfriend: agree ahead of time on some rules: is the dog allowed on the sofa? is he allowed outside offlead? can he sit at the dinner table or should he wait in his bed until u finish eating? once u decide on a few rules, u should both stick to them, although dogs very early learn who has which rules.

example: my husband refuses to have foofoo in the bed. foofoo has learned that when anon is in the shower, foofoo can come in to the bedroom, sit on the bed (bed is on the floor) and say hi to me. when he hears the shower turned off, he runs off and waits outside the bedroom.

speak with your dog, in a calm low voice using his name: foofoo wants to go for a walk? where's foofoo's leash? foofoo, lets walk.

u may sound like a baby talker, but it helps the dog and u bond. this baby talk babble is not for use when giving instructions... in which case u will use a firm, calm tone: foofoo, lets go (for when going on the leash). remember that both u and your girlfriend must use the same words/cues when giving instructions, although most dogs learn quickly, several words in whatever languages are spoken at home for most things. foofoo speaks thai and hebrew. nala the boxer speaks hebrew and english. nero (rip) spoke finish and hebrew.

foofoo being a very small dog and a one person dog, i found harder to work with then the boxer and he is much more 'mine' then anon's.

good luck

bina

forgot: try playing, then a short training session in an enclosed area at first, then a play session... u have to see what makes the dog tick: he likes to chase balls? then play ball. he likes walks, then walk and talk. he likes to be brushed, thats good , use that as a reward after a session EVEN IF HE DIDNT DO THINGS LIKE U THINK HE SHOULD.

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