Kiwi tourists urged not to ride elephants in Thailand

[webfact]

Kiwi tourists urged not to ride elephants in Thailand

Alex Baird

 

Working elephants in Thailand are often subjected to severe abuse.

Credits: Newshub.video screenshot

 

New Zealand travellers are being told to steer clear of elephant riding due to the severe abuse the animals face.

 

Intrepid Travel co-founder Geoff Manchester released shocking footage on Sunday - which happens to be World Elephant Day - to show tourists the dark side of elephant riding in Thailand.

 

"A female elephant will be shot and then its baby is captured," Mr Manchester says. "That baby is then tortured until it's willing to submit to humans and it's then trained to do elephant riding."

 

Full story: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/08/kiwi-tourists-urged-not-to-ride-elephants-in-thailand.html

 

-- Newshub 2018-2018-08-13

[ChrisY1]

Hopefully, moves like this will expand, and force the closure of this insidious tourist novelty.

Tripadvisor need to get onto this, as do governments on their travel advisories. 

[AsianAtHeart]

I'm taking this allegation of animal torture with a grain of salt.  There are many animal-rights activists in the world today who would like even to see such things as experimentation on laboratory mice to end--perhaps without thinking through the results that it would mean experimenting on humans instead whenever a new drug is to be tried, etc.  In the case of the elephants, they are well able to defend themselves.  We saw only a year or two ago in Thailand how one killed his trainer, probably by accident, when angered by a tourist.  All the elephant did was to swing his trunk.  The trainer just happened to be in the way, trying to protect the rude and unruly tourist.  These animals are massively powerful, they have massively good memories, they are intelligent, and, if truly they were being treated cruelly, they would almost certainly strike back.  Furthermore, we live in a harsh world where being "out in the wild" may be less safe for elephants these days than living in captivity.  I, for one, would not covet the position of elephant trainer, and I have some respect for those who do the job.

[Cabradelmar]

Little know fact... Elephant handler/trainer is the most dangerous profession in the world (deaths per active handlers). But to the point of the article, the animals used as entertainment for foreigners is a sad state. I will never forget my first trip to BK and there was an elephant walking down the sidewalk. I felt sorry for the poor beast.

[AsianAtHeart]

3 minutes ago, Cabradelmar said:

Little know fact... Elephant handler/trainer is the most dangerous profession in the world (deaths per active handlers). But to the point of the article, the animals used as entertainment for foreigners is a sad state. I will never forget my first trip to BK and there was an elephant walking down the sidewalk. I felt sorry for the poor beast.

Certainly, people should treat animals kindly, but what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk?  People lead their dogs down sidewalks every day, all over the world, on a freedom-depriving leash, even, and I don't see people upset about it.  I've been places where people ride horses down the street, and I've seen oxen yoked up to pull a plow--are these also cases of animal cruelty or torture?  Do people ride horses without first training them?  Is the sound of a whip cracking, or the spur of the cattleman's boot torture?  And I suppose parents should never so much as slap their wayward child either.

 

It is my understanding that most of the elephant trainers are kind to their elephants, and form a life-long bond.  An elephant may only obey their own trainer, not someone else whom they do not know.  Without question, cases of torture can be found--I'm certain of that.  I simply haven't seen enough evidence to claim it is the norm, and not the exception.  When I visited an elephant camp in northern Thailand, the animals seemed quite happy, and interacted with humans far more than serving merely as rides.  Granted, some years have passed since then, but it seems hard to believe things would have changed so much.

[kevvy]

11 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Certainly, people should treat animals kindly, but what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk?  People lead their dogs down sidewalks every day, all over the world, on a freedom-depriving leash, even, and I don't see people upset about it.  I've been places where people ride horses down the street, and I've seen oxen yoked up to pull a plow--are these also cases of animal cruelty or torture?  Do people ride horses without first training them?  Is the sound of a whip cracking, or the spur of the cattleman's boot torture?  And I suppose parents should never so much as slap their wayward child either.

 

It is my understanding that most of the elephant trainers are kind to their elephants, and form a life-long bond.  An elephant may only obey their own trainer, not someone else whom they do not know.  Without question, cases of torture can be found--I'm certain of that.  I simply haven't seen enough evidence to claim it is the norm, and not the exception.  When I visited an elephant camp in northern Thailand, the animals seemed quite happy, and interacted with humans far more than serving merely as rides.  Granted, some years have passed since then, but it seems hard to believe things would have changed so much.

Wild elephants won’t let humans ride on top of them. So in order to tame a wild elephant, it is tortured as a baby to completely break its spirit. The process is called Phajaan, or “the crush”.

It involves ripping baby elephants away from their mothers and confining them in a very small space, like a cage or hole in the ground where they’re unable to move. The baby elephants are then beaten into submission with clubs, pierced with sharp bull-hooks, and simultaneously starved and deprived of sleep for many days.

 

[canopy]

1 hour ago, AsianAtHeart said:

if truly they were being treated cruelly, they would almost certainly strike back. 

if??? Did you really say "if"??? You are ignorant of what happens to domesticate these elephants. Watch a video clip of what happens when the elephant "strikes back" as you say. It gets the living s*** kicked out of it. And they must endure this cruelty over and over. Every single one of them. Please educate yourself.

 

13 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk? 

Elephants belong in healthy forests with their own kind living in peace and nature, not pathetically begging on filthy roads like cambodian beggars. Forcing them out of the forests away from their own kind and into this cruel life style for the sole purpose of making a little pocket money for the handler is cruel beyond words. And just take a look what happens when an elephant gets hit by car which is sadly common.

 

[worrab]

I think that most of you are all missing one crucial point. An elephant's back/spine is not designed to carry one of those chairs or whatever you want to call them. Riding bareback is acceptable but not those chair devices with up to 4 people sitting in. This is what should be stopped not only in Thailand but worldwide as it is cruel to the elephants in training and when the rides actually take place.

[kevvy]

36 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Certainly, people should treat animals kindly, but what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk?  People lead their dogs down sidewalks every day, all over the world, on a freedom-depriving leash, even, and I don't see people upset about it.  I've been places where people ride horses down the street, and I've seen oxen yoked up to pull a plow--are these also cases of animal cruelty or torture?  Do people ride horses without first training them?  Is the sound of a whip cracking, or the spur of the cattleman's boot torture?  And I suppose parents should never so much as slap their wayward child either.

 

It is my understanding that most of the elephant trainers are kind to their elephants, and form a life-long bond.  An elephant may only obey their own trainer, not someone else whom they do not know.  Without question, cases of torture can be found--I'm certain of that.  I simply haven't seen enough evidence to claim it is the norm, and not the exception.  When I visited an elephant camp in northern Thailand, the animals seemed quite happy, and interacted with humans far more than serving merely as rides.  Granted, some years have passed since then, but it seems hard to believe things would have changed so much.

 

 

Kind???Just look on google and you will hundreds of acts of violence on these beautiful animals.

[AsianAtHeart]

 

19 minutes ago, kevvy said:

Wild elephants won’t let humans ride on top of them. So in order to tame a wild elephant, it is tortured as a baby to completely break its spirit. The process is called Phajaan, or “the crush”.

I appreciate that people are concerned for the welfare of the animals, and yet, kevvy, people can do similar torturous things with horses.  On the other hand, there are other ways to "break in" a horse that are kinder.  That a case for torture has been found does not establish it as the norm.  As one who has moderate experience with horses, including wild horses and "green broke" horses, I believe there is more to the story than this singularly horrible example of torture which you have pointed out (and your example is horrible).  For example, at the elephant camp I visited in Northern Thailand, a "baby" (small, but not newborn) elephant was roaming the place near its mother, with neither of them alarmed at the tourists thronging around the baby to pet it, feed it, and the like.  I was surprised to see how stiff the hairs on the baby were, almost like a wire brush--pet carefully!  But it was happy, and unafraid of us.  I saw an elephant in a zoo once with the look of desolation in its eyes--the elephants at this camp had nothing of the sort.

 

3 minutes ago, canopy said:

Elephants belong in healthy forests with their own kind living in peace and nature, not pathetically begging on filthy roads like cambodian beggars. Forcing them out of the forests away from their own kind and into this cruel life style for the sole purpose of making a little pocket money for the handler is cruel beyond words. And just take a look what happens when an elephant gets hit by car which is sadly common.

Where do horses, oxen, and dogs belong?  What about the smaller animals, like chickens, rabbits, parakeets, and hamsters?  Horses, cows, moose, and deer can be hit by cars too--and the latter two were living "in peace and nature."  In Thailand, wild elephants face a significant risk from poaching.  Some of them have even been killed by stepping in the hot springs north of Chiangmai.  Being "wild" does not always equate with being "safe."

8 minutes ago, worrab said:

I think that most of you are all missing one crucial point. An elephant's back/spine is not designed to carry one of those chairs or whatever you want to call them. Riding bareback is acceptable but not those chair devices with up to 4 people sitting in. This is what should be stopped not only in Thailand but worldwide as it is cruel to the elephants in training and when the rides actually take place.

We don't have the saying "strong as an elephant" for nothing.  I'm not sure about the spine question, but I have a difficult time believing it.  I have witnessed elephants do a head stand, pick up a very heavy log with their tusks and/or trunk, etc., and that weight had to be supported somewhere.  I think the platform on the elephant with three or four people on it is quite easily within its strength--not even close to pushing the limits.  Let's not forget that for a baby elephant to come along, one elephant climbs up onto another.  If the elephant can hold the weight of another elephant . . . .

[DM07]

38 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Certainly, people should treat animals kindly, but what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk?  People lead their dogs down sidewalks every day, all over the world, on a freedom-depriving leash, even, and I don't see people upset about it.  I've been places where people ride horses down the street, and I've seen oxen yoked up to pull a plow--are these also cases of animal cruelty or torture?  Do people ride horses without first training them?  Is the sound of a whip cracking, or the spur of the cattleman's boot torture?  And I suppose parents should never so much as slap their wayward child either.

 

It is my understanding that most of the elephant trainers are kind to their elephants, and form a life-long bond.  An elephant may only obey their own trainer, not someone else whom they do not know.  Without question, cases of torture can be found--I'm certain of that.  I simply haven't seen enough evidence to claim it is the norm, and not the exception.  When I visited an elephant camp in northern Thailand, the animals seemed quite happy, and interacted with humans far more than serving merely as rides.  Granted, some years have passed since then, but it seems hard to believe things would have changed so much.

"Certainly, people should treat animals kindly, but what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk?  People lead their dogs down sidewalks every day, all over the world, on a freedom-depriving leash, even, and I don't see people upset about it"

 

There is so much BS here, I don't even know where to start!

But let's start with this: if you can not see the difference between an Elephant and a dog...you are wholy unfit to have a discussion about this subject!

[kevvy]

1 minute ago, AsianAtHeart said:

 

I appreciate that people are concerned for the welfare of the animals, and yet, kevvy, people can do similar torturous things with horses.  On the other hand, there are other ways to "break in" a horse that are kinder.  That a case for torture has been found does not establish it as the norm.  As one who has moderate experience with horses, including wild horses and "green broke" horses, I believe there is more to the story than this singularly horrible example of torture which you have pointed out (and your example is horrible).  For example, at the elephant camp I visited in Northern Thailand, a "baby" (small, but not newborn) elephant was roaming the place near its mother, with neither of them alarmed at the tourists thronging around the baby to pet it, feed it, and the like.  I was surprised to see how stiff the hairs on the baby were, almost like a wire brush--pet carefully!  But it was happy, and unafraid of us.  I saw an elephant in a zoo once with the look of desolation in its eyes--the elephants at this camp had nothing of the sort.

 

Where do horses, oxen, and dogs belong?  What about the smaller animals, like chickens, rabbits, parakeets, and hamsters?  Horses, cows, moose, and deer can be hit by cars too--and the latter two were living "in peace and nature."  In Thailand, wild elephants face a significant risk from poaching.  Some of them have even been killed by stepping in the hot springs north of Chiangmai.  Being "wild" does not always equate with being "safe."

We don't have the saying "strong as an elephant" for nothing.  I'm not sure about the spine question, but I have a difficult time believing it.  I have witnessed elephants do a head stand, pick up a very heavy log with their tusks and/or trunk, etc., and that weight had to be supported somewhere.  I think the platform on the elephant with three or four people on it is quite easily within its strength--not even close to pushing the limits.  Let's not forget that for a baby elephant to come along, one elephant climbs up onto another.  If the elephant can hold the weight of another elephant . . . .

so when did you become a veterinary doctor and an expert on elephants .Oh that is right you went to an elephant camp .. 

[Cabradelmar]

44 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Certainly, people should treat animals kindly, but what's wrong with having one walk down a sidewalk?  People lead their dogs down sidewalks every day, all over the world, on a freedom-depriving leash, even, and I don't see people upset about it.  I've been places where people ride horses down the street, and I've seen oxen yoked up to pull a plow--are these also cases of animal cruelty or torture?  Do people ride horses without first training them?  Is the sound of a whip cracking, or the spur of the cattleman's boot torture?  And I suppose parents should never so much as slap their wayward child either.

 

It is my understanding that most of the elephant trainers are kind to their elephants, and form a life-long bond.  An elephant may only obey their own trainer, not someone else whom they do not know.  Without question, cases of torture can be found--I'm certain of that.  I simply haven't seen enough evidence to claim it is the norm, and not the exception.  When I visited an elephant camp in northern Thailand, the animals seemed quite happy, and interacted with humans far more than serving merely as rides.  Granted, some years have passed since then, but it seems hard to believe things would have changed so much.

You are out of touch. Elephants do not naturally live or belong on a sidewalk in Bangkok. Surprised I have to explain that to you. And there is clear evidence that many of these elephans are in fact abused for the shear entertainment of others (ie. Paid rides). It's wrong. Someone should put a leash on you and let others ride your back for 100 baht.

[stanleycoin]

7 minutes ago, kevvy said:

 

 

Kind???Just look on google and you will hundreds of acts of violence on these beautiful animals.

They could have at least used the correct paint touch up colour

bunch of cowboys  

[canopy]

1 minute ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Where do horses, oxen, and dogs belong? 

The animals you speak of are domesticated animals. Elephants are not. They are wild animals. Huge difference.

 

5 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Being "wild" does not always equate with being "safe."

No one said being wild is 100% safe for any animal, anywhere. What was said is elephants belong in nature with their family, not having their mom shot to death in front of them, taken to a cage, and tortured to teach them how to live with humans and spending the rest of their lives a slave in unhealthy conditions begging for pocket change to please man. There is no better example of animal cruelty than this.

 

[Wilsonandson]

A lot of misinformation about elephants is being circulated online. One major myth that many people accept without thinking is that "riding an elephant is harmful to their spine." Not only is there ZERO scientific proof to support this, it defies logic.

[SmartyMarty]

2 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I'm taking this allegation of animal torture with a grain of salt.  There are many animal-rights activists in the world today who would like even to see such things as experimentation on laboratory mice to end--perhaps without thinking through the results that it would mean experimenting on humans instead whenever a new drug is to be tried, etc.  In the case of the elephants, they are well able to defend themselves.  We saw only a year or two ago in Thailand how one killed his trainer, probably by accident, when angered by a tourist.  All the elephant did was to swing his trunk.  The trainer just happened to be in the way, trying to protect the rude and unruly tourist.  These animals are massively powerful, they have massively good memories, they are intelligent, and, if truly they were being treated cruelly, they would almost certainly strike back.  Furthermore, we live in a harsh world where being "out in the wild" may be less safe for elephants these days than living in captivity.  I, for one, would not covet the position of elephant trainer, and I have some respect for those who do the job.

I think then that you will likely die of a salt overdose. The torture of animals is well documented. Try Google Search.

[Wilsonandson]

Dr Gerardo has bought his method of elephant training through positive reinforcement to Thailand via his 'Gerardo's Wall' in the Golden Triangle. We invited the Thai Elephant Conservation Centre to come and view during his September '11 visit - imagine our surprise to learn they had incorporated it into their own training course for all their elephants. These are the people nominally in charge of training all elephants in Thailand.

[Happyman58]

On the light side, Nz gov warns Nz tourists not to ride elephants due to cruelty But did suggest to Nz males riding Thai ladies is safer and more enjoyable.

[CGW]

What happens to these Elephants if nobody is paying for their food? Years back they were working animals, there were complaints that they were fed amphetamines to make them work harder!

As time progressed in the off season they were allowed into cities to beg for food, in Bangkok at one time they used to get free transportation into the center as they caused so many traffic jams when walking, eventually they were banned from city centers due to the sheer havoc they created! A lot of these Elephant ride centers were set up then, which have become popular, they may not be ideal but the alternative is what? Can hardly just set them free to wander.... ?

[ratcatcher]

1 hour ago, worrab said:

I think that most of you are all missing one crucial point. An elephant's back/spine is not designed to carry one of those chairs or whatever you want to call them. Riding bareback is acceptable but not those chair devices with up to 4 people sitting in. This is what should be stopped not only in Thailand but worldwide as it is cruel to the elephants in training and when the rides actually take place.

"An elephant's back/spine is not designed to carry one of those chairs or whatever you want to call them."

 

Howdah hell can you say that when elephants have been used for thousands of years as war machines and hunting platforms, particularly in India during the Raj when it was fashionable for British royalty to go on tiger shoots.

It is part of Thailand's history and glory. However, in this so-called enlightened modern age, this is  unacceptable as a form of entertainment,and  not as gory as bull fighting.

 

https://www.google.co.th/search?biw=1350&bih=612&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=cfRwW6CmA9jprQHQ8bSYBA&q=howdah&oq=howdah&gs_l=img.3..0j0i30k1l9.106710.108633.0.109243.6.5.0.1.1.0.183.608.2j3.5.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.6.619...0i67k1.0.EFsGD0dYidw#imgrc=OZCfiovGYEtMlM:

 

 

[Oziex1]

Using animals for entertainment is primitive behavior, there will come a time when we no longer have horse racing, dog racing and and other forms of animal exploitation. 

 

When we improve our respect for animals we will also improve our respect for each other.

[Chassa]

Is keeping a dog or cat in an apartment not cruel ?

Most of the elephants you see are born and bred in captivity. You can see the wild ones in the national parks.

[DM07]

1 hour ago, Wilsonandson said:

A lot of misinformation about elephants is being circulated online. One major myth that many people accept without thinking is that "riding an elephant is harmful to their spine." Not only is there ZERO scientific proof to support this, it defies logic.
 

I am no vetenarian but...maybe look at HOW people usually ride on elephants!

Usually it's not bareback, but with bench for two or more people, tied to their backs.

 

[DM07]

43 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

"An elephant's back/spine is not designed to carry one of those chairs or whatever you want to call them."

 

Howdah hell can you say that when elephants have been used for thousands of years as war machines and hunting platforms, particularly in India during the Raj when it was fashionable for British royalty to go on tiger shoots.

It is part of Thailand's history and glory. However, in this so-called enlightened modern age, this is  unacceptable as a form of entertainment,and  not as gory as bull fighting.

 

https://www.google.co.th/search?biw=1350&bih=612&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=cfRwW6CmA9jprQHQ8bSYBA&q=howdah&oq=howdah&gs_l=img.3..0j0i30k1l9.106710.108633.0.109243.6.5.0.1.1.0.183.608.2j3.5.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.6.619...0i67k1.0.EFsGD0dYidw#imgrc=OZCfiovGYEtMlM:

 

 

a ) because it has been done for hundreds of years it is good or acceptable? Bring back the witch- hunt, then!

b ) Who is glorifying bullfighting?

c ) I don't give a flying frog, if it is part of any countries "history and glory"! It is wrong!

[ratcatcher]

1 minute ago, DM07 said:

a ) because it has been done for hundreds of years it is good or acceptable? Bring back the witch- hunt, then!

b ) Who is glorifying bullfighting?

c ) I don't give a flying frog, if it is part of any countries "history and glory"! It is wrong!

"However, in this so-called enlightened modern age, this is  unacceptable as a form of entertainment,and  not as gory as bull fighting."

Try reading my comment fully please.

 

[stanleycoin]

43 minutes ago, Chassa said:

Is keeping a dog or cat in an apartment not cruel ?

Most of the elephants you see are born and bred in captivity. You can see the wild ones in the national parks.

No.

But if you keep an elephant in your apartment, i would say its a bit cruel.

[Stargeezr]

Africa elephants are shot for their ivory, is that better? Fake news is also

everywhere. 

[lvr181]

2 hours ago, kevvy said:

Wild elephants won’t let humans ride on top of them. So in order to tame a wild elephant, it is tortured as a baby to completely break its spirit. The process is called Phajaan, or “the crush”.

It involves ripping baby elephants away from their mothers and confining them in a very small space, like a cage or hole in the ground where they’re unable to move. The baby elephants are then beaten into submission with clubs, pierced with sharp bull-hooks, and simultaneously starved and deprived of sleep for many days.

 

Does that happen to all elephants or is this being "selective" reporting/comment?

[Vacuum]

2 hours ago, kevvy said:

The baby elephants are then beaten into submission with clubs, pierced with sharp bull-hooks, and simultaneously starved and deprived of sleep for many days.

B.S. I don't believe this. Please show some reliable links to this.