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Splits deepen over British minister Johnson's burqa comments


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Just now, Neeranam said:

Have there been any crimes committed when criminals are wearing these things?

 

Yep, from memory a few in the UK and one of the reasons why personally I support the current restrictions based upon requirements for full face helmets.

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3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Yep, from memory a few in the UK and one of the reasons why personally I support the current restrictions based upon requirements for full face helmets.

I agree, they shouldn't be allowed into banks, post offices, etc.

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29 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I'm not at all suprised that you're now 'backing out' - as you have presumably realised by now that your assumption (based on the fact that I support banning the burka/niqab) was entirely wrong.

 

Let's be entirely clear on this point - you have provided zero evidence supporting your allegation against me -  "Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification".

 

Sadly, it comes as no suprise that you are unable to admit or apologise for making an entirely false, personal accusation against a poster (myself in this case) who holds a different opinion on this one, particular subject.

To not be aware of modern day spelling of 'Muslim' aptly demonstrates your lack of knowledge and more than likely your sources.

 

I feel I must reply. Your repeated false denials of your 'likes' and content posting across multiple topics together with accusations regards myself has crossed over a line. As promised I have not reported your rude PM sent to me in contradiction to TV rules. I guess the Mods will be along soon to delete this public disagreement.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, simple1 said:

To not be aware of modern day spelling of 'Muslim' aptly demonstrates your lack of knowledge and more than likely your sources.

 

I feel I must reply. Your repeated false denials of your 'likes' and content posting across multiple topics together with accusations regards myself has crossed over a line. As promised I have not reported your rude PM sent to me in contradiction to TV rules. I guess the Mods will be along soon to delete this public disagreement.

 

 

Have to admit I was taken by suprise when I sent you a p.m. (which only repeated my post on this topic, as I was sure that the thread would be pages down by the time you next entered the forum) - and your response was to tell me my p.m. was unsolicited, rude and that any further p.m's would be reported - and result in my being banned from the forum ?!

 

I've no doubt that you'd love these posts to be deleted by the mods. as you hate being proven to be a liar.

 

I see you've now changed your original 'attack' from "Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification" to:-

 

"Your repeated false denials of your 'likes' and content posting across multiple topics together with accusations regards myself".....

 

Are you finally going to admit that your original accusation was a lie, hence the change in tack?

 

I can entirely understand if the mods. decide to delete these 'exchanges' - but it would be a shame - as your lack of honesty deserves to be named and shamed, so that other posters realise how low you are prepared to stoop to insult others with a different POV to yourself.

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A quote from Sadiq Khan, the muslim Mayor of London, taken from The Guardian.

 

"Khan, said: “When I was younger you didn’t see people in hijabs and niqabs, not even in Pakistan when I visited my family. In London we got on. People dressed the same. What you see now are people born and raised here who are choosing to wear the jilbab or niqab.

“There is a question to be asked about what is going on in those homes. What’s insidious is if people are starting to think it is appropriate to treat women differently or that it has been forced on them. What worries me is children being forced to adopt a lifestyle.” "

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/14/sadiq-khan-question-to-be-asked-about-hijabs-veils-london

 

Yes, these women are being forced to adopt a lifestyle: please read my quotes from Dr Taj Hargey, the imam at the Oxford Islamic Congregation, and Professor Elham Manea, a Swiss-Yemeni citizen and the author of Women and Sharia Law if you really have any interest in the topic.

 

These women have:

> no freedom of religion

> no freedom of marriage partner

> no freedom of sexuality

> no freedom of dress.

There are many other freedoms they are denied too, but  the list would be too long.

 

Sad to see a few people on this forum supporting this abuse of women's rights.

As a lifelong liberal I cannot support this oppression of women - of course, this doesn't mean I am a supporter of Mr Boris Johnson either ?

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2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Sad to see a few people on this forum supporting this abuse of women's rights.

So far as I recall not one member has supported "abuse of women's rights". On the other side of the coin a few members have called out Muslim heritage women as 'stupid' and so on which one can plausible claim as abuse of women

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  I mean, he could've said they reminded him of an inferior,

barbaric culture who'd still be living in bedouin tents if our

western technology hadn't allowed them to access their

oil.Which btw we should've just taken by force of arms in

the first place.

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3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

So far as I recall not one member has supported "abuse of women's rights". On the other side of the coin a few members have called out Muslim heritage women as 'stupid' and so on which one can plausible claim as abuse of women

Then your memory is extremely faulty...

 

I have not been alone in pointing out that brit. women have fought long and hard for equal rights, and that the misogynistic burka is a physical demonstration supporting a misogynistic POV, that can only encourage the extremists to insist that 'their own women' wear the same ridiculous piece of cloth when out in public.

 

As for the rest of your comment.... I pointed out that three Muslim young women gave an interview to 'explain' why they chose to wear the burka.  I pointed out why their 'reasoning' was ridiculous - at best.....

 

Once again, you're more than exaggerating.....

 

Never mind ?, as I'm still awaiting a response to your outright lie that:-

"Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification" . ?

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3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

women have fought long and hard for equal rights, and that the misogynistic burka is a physical demonstration supporting a misogynistic POV,

One could argue the Burka supports feminism as it removes both age and looks from the equation.

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Just now, BritManToo said:

One could argue the Burks is a feminist tool as it removes both age and looks from the equation.

True to a certain exetent I suppose, if the female prefers to be so odd that nobody quite knows how to look/respond/behave - as would be the case in the uk.

 

It would certainly not be a "feminist tool" - and I've no idea why you would say this?

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9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Then your memory is extremely faulty...

 

I have not been alone in pointing out that brit. women have fought long and hard for equal rights, and that the misogynistic burka is a physical demonstration supporting a misogynistic POV, that can only encourage the extremists to insist that 'their own women' wear the same ridiculous piece of cloth when out in public.

 

As for the rest of your comment.... I pointed out that three Muslim young women gave an interview to 'explain' why they chose to wear the burka.  I pointed out why their 'reasoning' was ridiculous - at best.....<snip>

I am returning to Pattaya in early November. We have a house in the predominantly Sunni Muslim area and have known a number of the local Thai Muslim families for 20 years plus. As a self identified warrior of women's rights for Muslims I extend an invitation to you to meet with some of the Muslim women (my wife will act as translator) and you can have an opportunity to express your forceful opinions and see what they have to say. If you would like to accept my offer please PM on this matter only, late October, to make arrangements

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19 minutes ago, simple1 said:

I am returning to Pattaya in early November. We have a house in the predominantly Sunni Muslim area and have known a number of the local Thai Muslim families for 20 years plus. As a self identified warrior of women's rights for Muslims I extend an invitation to you to meet with some of the Muslim women (my wife will act as translator) and you can have an opportunity to express your forceful opinions and see what they have to say. If you would like to accept my offer please PM on this matter only, late October, to make arrangements

I'm hardly about to p.m. you as you made it very clear that if I dared send you a p.m. again you would get me banned from the forum ?!

 

I live in Rawai, Phuket.  MANY Muslims,  and I haven't met one that I didn't like.  They all make their faith clear by wearing a headscarf, and we freely chat - re-inforcing my belief (from earlier experience in the uk) that ordinary Muslims are just the same as the rest of us.

 

I was a bit worried a couple of years ago when a Muslim pharmacist enquired about 'natural tears' (or something) that I was buying for my dog - knowing that Muslims aren't keen on dogs....  Much to my suprise, she was lovely about it, and helped me throughout the years of various 'dog problems' when my vet had run out of medications, and told me they could be supplied by a pharmacist.

 

I'm still waiting for you to apologise for your lie that "Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification"......

 

I've no doubt that you're still trying to get these posts deleted as they prove you to be a liar ?.

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38 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm hardly about to p.m. you as you made it very clear that if I dared send you a p.m. again you would get me banned from the forum ?!

 

I'm still waiting for you to apologise for your lie that "Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification"......

 

I've no doubt that you're still trying to get these posts deleted as they prove you to be a liar ?.

I gave you permission to PM on my invite.

 

No I will not apologise as you're in denial.. You have even been insulting in this topic. 

 

Nope no report by me to the Mods.

 

Now stop the nonsense.

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51 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm hardly about to p.m. you as you made it very clear that if I dared send you a p.m. again you would get me banned from the forum ?!

 

I live in Rawai, Phuket.  MANY Muslims,  and I haven't met one that I didn't like.  They all make their faith clear by wearing a headscarf, and we freely chat - re-inforcing my belief (from earlier experience in the uk) that ordinary Muslims are just the same as the rest of us.

 

I was a bit worried a couple of years ago when a Muslim pharmacist enquired about 'natural tears' (or something) that I was buying for my dog - knowing that Muslims aren't keen on dogs....  Much to my suprise, she was lovely about it, and helped me throughout the years of various 'dog problems' when my vet had run out of medications, and told me they could be supplied by a pharmacist.

 

I'm still waiting for you to apologise for your lie that "Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification"......

 

I've no doubt that you're still trying to get these posts deleted as they prove you to be a liar ?.

 

14 minutes ago, simple1 said:

I gave you permission to PM on my invite.

 

No I will not apologise as you're in denial.. You have even been insulting in this topic. 

 

Nope no report by me to the Mods.

 

Now stop the nonsense.

Thank you for your 'permission" ....

 

I've made it abundantly clear that I have nothing against Muslims - which is why I took exception to your outright lie:-

 

"Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification".

 

I've also made it abundantly clear that living in Rawai, Phuket I already talk (and get on with)  many Muslims (not to mention those in the uk) that wore a headscarf (making it clear that they were Muslims), and we got on very well.

 

It's only you that tries to slur others by pretending that they are Islamophobic - with zero evidence - other than that they disagree with your opinion on the burka/nikab.

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On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:47 PM, My Thai Life said:
On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 10:30 AM, 7by7 said:

BTW, neither the burka nor the niqab are compulsory anywhere.

Do you mind telling us where you got that wisdom from? Could you send some evidence for this assertion

Lot's of sources; which would you believe?

 

In the two strictest countries, Iran and Saudi Arabia, women are required to cover their bodies and hair, but not their faces. Even this is becoming more relaxed and less enforced.

 

Iran and Saudi Arabia race to pass gender reforms as Tehran relaxes headscarf arrests

 

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:47 PM, My Thai Life said:

Have you lived in muslim countries? Which ones?

Have you ever lived in the UK? If so, where?

 

Although not lying about where you live in the UK in some small way does you credit, refusing to confirm or deny your earlier assertion that you do at least live here throws serious doubt upon all of your assertions. So I have to wonder if you have actually ever lived in Saudi; especially as many of your claims about that country have been refuted by members who have done so and by other, independent evidence!

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@dick dasterdly, on Thursday I said to you

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 10:24 AM, 7by7 said:

A straight question, to which I hope you will give a straight answer: do you believe in a woman's right to choose, even if you disagree with that choice?

 

Here we are on Sunday, and you have made numerous posts in this topic since Thursday; yet no answer.

 

Does that mean 'No' is your actual answer?

 

I ask, because everything you have posted on this matter indicates that you do believe in a woman's right to choose, but only when you approve of that choice.

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6 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

A quote from Sadiq Khan, the muslim Mayor of London, taken from The Guardian.

 

"Khan, said: “When I was younger you didn’t see people in hijabs and niqabs, not even in Pakistan when I visited my family. In London we got on. People dressed the same. What you see now are people born and raised here who are choosing to wear the jilbab or niqab.

“There is a question to be asked about what is going on in those homes. What’s insidious is if people are starting to think it is appropriate to treat women differently or that it has been forced on them. What worries me is children being forced to adopt a lifestyle.” "

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/14/sadiq-khan-question-to-be-asked-about-hijabs-veils-london

 

Actually the Guardian are quoting an interview he gave to the Evening Standard during the London mayoral campaign in 2016.

 

Nice cherry picking. Notice he says choosing to wear, not forced to wear. Read the rest of the article, he is not saying what you want us to believe he is saying.

 

See also Khan on the Burkini ban: I don't think anyone should tell women what they can and can't wear. Full stop. 

 

Also Sadiq Khan criticises call for Muslim women to be fined for wearing burkas or face veils in public.

 

As for you quotes from other Muslims; so what? Some Muslims are in favour of banning the burka, others are not.

 

Me? I'm in favour of giving women the free choice to wear one or not as they see fit.

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8 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

It's only you that tries to slur others by pretending that they are Islamophobic - with zero evidence - other than that they disagree with your opinion on the burka/nikab.

Another falsehood

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One of the assumptions that supporters of the burga ban make is that it will actually help the women who wear them. In fact it may endanger them. It can also encourage non burga-wearing women to adopt that article of clothing. And it can actually increase the isolation of these women.

Banning Muslim Veils Tends to Backfire—Why Do Countries Keep Doing It?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/denmark-burqa-veil-ban/566630/

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7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Actually the Guardian are quoting an interview he gave to the Evening Standard during the London mayoral campaign in 2016.

 

Nice cherry picking. Notice he says choosing to wear, not forced to wear. Read the rest of the article, he is not saying what you want us to believe he is saying.

 

See also Khan on the Burkini ban: I don't think anyone should tell women what they can and can't wear. Full stop. 

 

Also Sadiq Khan criticises call for Muslim women to be fined for wearing burkas or face veils in public.

 

As for you quotes from other Muslims; so what? Some Muslims are in favour of banning the burka, others are not.

 

Me? I'm in favour of giving women the free choice to wear one or not as they see fit.

Children do not have choice. They are forced to wear it  to teach them body shame and male superiority so by the time they grow up they are psychologically and emotionally dependant on it. It damages eye sight and leads to vitamin D deficiency.  

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2 hours ago, The manic said:

Children do not have choice. They are forced to wear it  to teach them body shame and male superiority so by the time they grow up they are psychologically and emotionally dependant on it. It damages eye sight and leads to vitamin D deficiency.  

The topic of discussion is the dress of some Muslim ‘women’.

 

Nothing to do with children.

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16 hours ago, The manic said:

Children do not have choice. They are forced to wear it  to teach them body shame and male superiority so by the time they grow up they are psychologically and emotionally dependant on it. It damages eye sight and leads to vitamin D deficiency.

I quote, yet again, from Boris Johnson's burka jibe: Why do some Muslim women wear the veil?

Quote

Ms Noor has four daughters none of whom wear a burka.

How is the wearers eyesight damaged?

 

Muslim women who wear a burka or niqab are not the only ones who cover themselves in public. Many Orthodox Jewish women do, some even wearing the burka or niqab, and some Christian sects also cover themselves in public; and, of course, many men in various religions also cover most of their bodies. Many workers wear clothing which covers most of their body; office workers, who also spend all day indoors out of the sun, railway workers, road workers and similar in full PPE etc.. Many people, women in particular, who work outside in hot climates cover themselves, including their faces, to prevent their skin from getting too dark for their taste; look around you in Thailand.

 

Would you ban all this to prevent vitamin D deficiency? Especially as a well balanced diet can give you all the vitamin D you need. 

 

That you have resorted to such ridiculous arguments for removing a woman's freedom to choose what to wear shows how desperate you have become.

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:28 PM, naboo said:

In the UK, where BJ's comments were published:

 

 

 

 

 

So more restricted than your example of shouting "fire" in an auditorium. An offence is committed in many circumstances, but there is a fine line. Abuse of religion is fine, so long as it is not with the intention of stirring up religious hatred, or if what is written or said is likely to stir up racial hatred. What BJ wrote has been taken well out of context and I don't think crosses that fine line, but he needs to be careful because repetition could be deemed to become guilty under "having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby".

Works both ways. By wearing such clothing it causes religious hatred. Ask a westerner that has worked in Saudi how they feel when they see that clothing.

 

Including racial hatred is irrelevant as Islam is not a race.

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On 8/16/2018 at 4:24 PM, 7by7 said:

 Their reasons for their choice are irrelevent; it is a choice they made of their own free will.

 

A choice you labled "stupid and/or uninformed -and definitely ridiculous on this subject" and would deny them in the name of women's rights and equality!

 

A straight question, to which I hope you will give a straight answer: do you belive in a woman's right to choose, even if you disagree with that choice?

 

On 8/19/2018 at 10:20 PM, 7by7 said:

@dick dasterdly, on Thursday I said to you

 

Here we are on Sunday, and you have made numerous posts in this topic since Thursday; yet no answer.

 

Does that mean 'No' is your actual answer?

 

I ask, because everything you have posted on this matter indicates that you do believe in a woman's right to choose, but only when you approve of that choice.

I apologise for the delay in replying.  It is a very good, interesting question, and even though I didn't have the time to respond at the time of reading, I thought about it quite a lot whilst busy doing other things!

 

Unfortunately, by the time I next came onto TV I forgot about your interesting question as I was so annoyed at another poster's false accusation that "Many times in topics concerning Muslims you have indulged in generalised vilification".....

 

Even having given your question quite a lot of thought, I still find it very difficult to answer for various reasons.

 

As an example, my immediate reaction would obviously be to deny that I only believe in a woman's right to choose - if I agree with that choice.

 

But I  then realised that I wouldn't agree with either women or men being allowed to walk around naked in public - and not because it is illegal - but because I disagreed with that 'choice' for various other reasons!  That line of thought made me realise that there are a few other 'free choice' issues (for both men and women) with which I would not agree.

 

Which then started me thinking about my 'ambiguity' over 'free speech' issues!

 

I apologise for this long (badly-expressed ☹️) post - but hope you realise that I'm not trying to avoid your question, it's just that there are always so many variables!  But yes, I do agree that personal opinion always plays a part in our thought processes.

 

Finally (everyone will be pleased to hear!) I'll end this post by repeating another of my posts:-

 

On 8/16/2018 at 3:13 PM, dick dasterdly said:

If we could be 100% sure that only the following are wearing burkas (forget the nikab - which is even more stupid):-

 

1)  adult women that have only attended non-Moslem schools (dressed in school uniform and participating in all classes) throughout their education

2) they were entirely free to make such a (pointless) personal choice

 

then I'd be be far less likely to argue against this manifestation of misogyny.

 

Admittedly, I'd still think they were incapable of independent, intelligent, logical thought.

 

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12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Works both ways. By wearing such clothing it causes religious hatred. Ask a westerner that has worked in Saudi how they feel when they see that clothing.

 

Including racial hatred is irrelevant as Islam is not a race.

I’ve worked in Saudi Arabi, seeing Muslim women wearing  wild or Burqa’s doesn’t bother me in the least.

——

 

You need to run your beliefs about what is regarded as ‘a race’ with respect to ‘race hate’ or ‘hate crimes’ within U.K. law past a competent lawyer.

Until you do, don’t ever rely on your own definition as a defence, not of yourself or of others.

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11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I quote, yet again, from Boris Johnson's burka jibe: Why do some Muslim women wear the veil?

How is the wearers eyesight damaged?

 

Muslim women who wear a burka or niqab are not the only ones who cover themselves in public. Many Orthodox Jewish women do, some even wearing the burka or niqab, and some Christian sects also cover themselves in public; and, of course, many men in various religions also cover most of their bodies. Many workers wear clothing which covers most of their body; office workers, who also spend all day indoors out of the sun, railway workers, road workers and similar in full PPE etc.. Many people, women in particular, who work outside in hot climates cover themselves, including their faces, to prevent their skin from getting too dark for their taste; look around you in Thailand.

 

Would you ban all this to prevent vitamin D deficiency? Especially as a well balanced diet can give you all the vitamin D you need. 

 

That you have resorted to such ridiculous arguments for removing a woman's freedom to choose what to wear shows how desperate you have become.

The main crux of the Johnson quote is really about inappropriate dress in the UK and the fact that it has no resemblance to UK living or attire . If these immigrants want to live and conform to UK standards they would not be segregating themselves by wearing alien clothes and if it means that much to them I suggest they go back to their home lands where they can practice their customs to their hearts content . The majority of them are in the UK only because it is a land of easy handouts compared to their mother countries . The burqa has become a symbol of all Muslims and I have to tell you they are not a popular people throughout Europe , in case you did not know because of their religious beliefs ,treatment to women and terrorism across the globe . They truly believe that they will rule the UK in the near future and are told to produce as many off spring as possible to enable this .

I appreciate  immigrants who have truly integrated to the UK , studied hard , gained respected qualifications and made a good contribution to the country , especially those within the medical field . They live among the local community and dress in normal western fashion and even pop down to the local pub for a pint and chat . They are people who are thankful , respectful and appreciate the chance they have been given by the UK .

Would you like to live next door to a mosque ? 

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17 minutes ago, superal said:

The main crux of the Johnson quote is really about inappropriate dress in the UK and the fact that it has no resemblance to UK living or attire . If these immigrants want to live and conform to UK standards they would not be segregating themselves by wearing alien clothes and if it means that much to them I suggest they go back to their home lands where they can practice their customs to their hearts content . The majority of them are in the UK only because it is a land of easy handouts compared to their mother countries . The burqa has become a symbol of all Muslims and I have to tell you they are not a popular people throughout Europe , in case you did not know because of their religious beliefs ,treatment to women and terrorism across the globe . They truly believe that they will rule the UK in the near future and are told to produce as many off spring as possible to enable this .

I appreciate  immigrants who have truly integrated to the UK , studied hard , gained respected qualifications and made a good contribution to the country , especially those within the medical field . They live among the local community and dress in normal western fashion and even pop down to the local pub for a pint and chat . They are people who are thankful , respectful and appreciate the chance they have been given by the UK .

Would you like to live next door to a mosque ? 

Replete with derogatory generalizations and muddled thinking.

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