Pedigrees - Are they important?

[Smithson]

I'm looking for a German Shepherd pup, health and temperament are most important, I'm not so fussed about appearance. Considering this, how important are pedigrees? I'm getting conflicting information, one breeder said that while both parents were pedigree, they couldn't supply a pedigree certificate. I've been dogs with pedigree have had health checks, vaccinations etc and the parents are from different bloodlines.

 

If this is the case, then buying without the certificate could be risky. How can I check that the pup they are selling, is the one the pedigree was issued for and that everything is above board?

 

Thanks

[bprinceuk]

German Shepherds are prone to hip problems, a reputable breeder will have had the parents hip scored and should be able to give you the readings

[bprinceuk]

5 minutes ago, bprinceuk said:

German Shepherds are prone to hip problems, a reputable breeder will have had the parents hip scored and should be able to give you the readings

A hip score is a measure of evidence of hip dysplasia (abnormal development). Scores for each hip are added together to get an overall hip score for a dog. Scores range from 0 to 106, with the lower the score the better. The advice to breeders is to ideally breed only from dogs which score below the breed average.

 

What is a good hip score for GSD?

The lower the total score indicates the better hip conformation. Each hip can score from 0 (best) to a maximum of 53 (worst) and the hip score is the total of each hip added together. Therefore the best possible score is 0:0 and the worst 53:53. The average hip score for the German Shepherd is at present a total of 18.

[jak2002003]

Good advise from above posters already.  

 

Pedigree registered dogs....

 

Means nothing in terms of health and temperament.  In fact the majority of pedigree dogs are more unhealthy and have more genetic diseases than mix breed dogs, due to restricted gene pool.... and MOST breeders are breeding for the LOOK of the dog... the shape and colour to meet the set breed standard 'perfection', and not for health.... so they can win prizes in shows and charge more money for the pedigree registered puppies they produce.

 

A dog from pedigree parents will be just the same, with or without papers.  Only value of the papers and the dog registered is if you want to breed from it in the future and sell the puppies.

 

If you really want a German Shepherd dog then go to as many breeders as you can.  

 

You should look closely for the following most important things:

 

See BOTH the puppies parents AND how the dogs are housed and cared for.

See the health of the adult dogs.

Check temperament of both the parents

Check how many litters the bitch as had (overbreeding is cruel and shows the owners don't care about the dogs welfare).

Ideally get some references from other people who have bought dogs off the breeder if you can.

See what state of health the oldest dogs are in.  Many of the genetic diseases don't show up until the dog is several years old.

 

German Shepherds are far removed form the dogs they used to be.  Just look at these photos.  In my opinion, these beautiful dogs are getting ruined and diseases inflicted upon them by breeders.  It's up to you, but I would choose a non pedigree dog.. maybe mixed breed.. that looked similar to the old style German Shepherd, which is likely to be far more healthy and better temperament than a inbred show dog.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NCC1701A]

1 hour ago, Smithson said:

I'm getting conflicting information, one breeder said that while both parents were pedigree, they couldn't supply a pedigree certificate.

are you talking about in Thailand?

[Smithson]

Thanks for all the helpful info.

 

Jack, I agree with everything you've written, if I was at home I'd look for a shelter pup that was mixed breed, GSD and something else. We had a Thai dog x with GSD, was a really great dog. I'd love to get another like her.

 

The problem is here the shelter dogs are all Thai dogs, nothing against them, we already have one. The temperament isn't the same and they are a bit small.  I spend a lot of time away from home, a GSD is a decent watchdog and great family member.

 

Regarding the pedigree, my thoughts were it would at least prove the dog wasn't inbred and you'd see the parents hip score.

[wildewillie89]

I was under the impression papers mean nothing unless they are DNA. If both 'parents' are registered, I think all it takes for the pup to be registered is the fee (which is why backyard breeders have two prices - with and without papers). So what happens is they have a couple of registered dogs, but breed in other dogs and tell you that the pups came from the registered dogs. If that is the case and you want a pedigree dog then never buy a pup if they do not offer papers from the beginning or offer the dog at two different prices. Should be one price with papers and nothing else. None of this we are finding the papers or can get the papers, one price with papers from the start. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. 

As Arjen says, a Malinois has a higher chance to be better all round dog if can find one. 

[Crossy]

25 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

As Arjen says, a Malinois has a higher chance to be better all round dog if can find one. 

Very nice creatures.

 

 

[Smithson]

^ Thanks, I've been looking for a Malinois, but they don't seem available. Could only find one place, waiting for a response.

 

Regarding papers and DNA testing, to me I can't see how they could be genuine without DNA testing. What's to stop breeders from claiming the pups are from certain parents? This may be unlikely back home, but we all know it's different here...'reputable' breeders most likely means they're wealthy and have won competitions.

 

So much of the advice for choosing a pup just doesn't work here. None of the reputable breeders we've contacted have asked about the home their pups may go to. Similarly, they're not too keen on lots of questions, as if we're questioning their integrity. Most of the pups shown for sale are in cages, almost none show the parents/pups with people or in a home situation. Knowing that the dog has spent it's first few weeks socialized around people is important.

 

One ex-breeder we spoke to said he'd given up as he'd seen so much suffering. His advice was to get pups with imported parents, but how to be sure?

[jak2002003]

21 minutes ago, Smithson said:

^ Thanks, I've been looking for a Malinois, but they don't seem available. Could only find one place, waiting for a response.

 

Regarding papers and DNA testing, to me I can't see how they could be genuine without DNA testing. What's to stop breeders from claiming the pups are from certain parents? This may be unlikely back home, but we all know it's different here...'reputable' breeders most likely means they're wealthy and have won competitions.

 

So much of the advice for choosing a pup just doesn't work here. None of the reputable breeders we've contacted have asked about the home their pups may go to. Similarly, they're not too keen on lots of questions, as if we're questioning their integrity. Most of the pups shown for sale are in cages, almost none show the parents/pups with people or in a home situation. Knowing that the dog has spent it's first few weeks socialized around people is important.

 

One ex-breeder we spoke to said he'd given up as he'd seen so much suffering. His advice was to get pups with imported parents, but how to be sure?

Wow that is bad.  When I went to choose my dogs we had no problems going to the breeders houses and seeing at least the dogs mother and all the puppies in a home environment.  

 

I would never advise to  buy from just seeing puppies in a cage!!!  Perhaps take a bit longer in your search.  Better to take more time then rush and get a dog with problems now.  

[jvs]

I have worked and certified dogs in Canada,France and Holland.

Worked with all kind of breeds and imo you can not find a better working dog then a Malinois(belgian shepherd).

Siam Crown kennels in Bangkok imported very good Dutch dogs,i do not know if they have the knowledge to breed good ones but worth a try i guess.

They also do KNPV which is a very good program to test working dogs.

Certified KNPV dogs are being sold all over the world and work as PSD and security.

Siam Crown also does IPO which is not as demanding but is a sport and you can compete in this all over the world.KNPV is certified only in the Netherlands and is a pretty difficult program compared to IPO.

There was a guy from Holland in Hua hin not so long ago who had a nice litter of Malinois puppies.I have inmported some Malonois myself but i do not train with them anymore,getting too old.Buying a pup always is like byuing a lottery ticket,you just never know but good line breeding can somewhar predict what a dog wil turn into.Of course you need to know how to raise a pup properly,training it is yet another hurdle.

[Smithson]

There are a few places that seemed to care a bit more for the pups, show them playing in the grass, or even inside with kids, but they're not that crazy about lots of questions. Rather than take it as a sign of care and interest, they find it annoying, especially after a couple of calls.

 

Attitudes and reasons for having dogs are different here to back home. People like the pedigree status and appearance. You just don't see people here enjoying time with their dog, throwing the ball, taking it for a swim.

 

Our old dog would swim for the ball, the locals were amazed, thought it took years of training. Whenever deliveries were made to our house I would make her sit and stay. The guys delivering were amazed, asking if she was an army/police dog. I said yes, that she'd been trained to go for the throats of intruders, they all believed me.

 

Quote

There was a guy from Holland in Hua hin not so long ago who had a nice litter of Malinois puppies.I have inmported some Malonois myself but i do not train with them anymore,getting too old.

Thanks, I've contacted Siam Kennels, hopefully they will reply.

 

If you have any info for the guy in Hua Hin, please post or message.

[wildewillie89]

One of my dogs was harder to find here, so had to get her from someone who had imported the parents. I looked at a few places who imported dogs (from just a breeding pair to a larger scale). Don't for a second think that just because Thai people have imported dogs that they are reputable or care for the dogs. They don't necessarily go searching for an exact line they want, more just the first dogs they see of the particular breed they want that will make them some money. Real breeding of dogs is not a money game, the people who see it as a money game fail the dogs - so a fair chunk of Thai breeders. 

People claiming the pups are from certain parents happens very frequently in the developed world also. The info I got re the papers was just a warning video doing the rounds on social media from back home as it was happening so much. 

[Smithson]

^ Thanks for the info. Can you offer any tips for finding a nice healthy dog here?

 

My wife spoke to one breeder who was very informative. The owner says both parents have papers, the father is imported, mother is local. She said the mating was registered and that she could get papers for the pups, although it requires ear tattooing, blood tests and other stuff. From what I gathered, she is not bothering to register them as they are not show quality.

 

Looking at their FB page shows dogs running round in the grass, with kids in the home, playing with people etc. Also pics of ppl who have bought her dogs. The owner was also interested in the home her dogs would go to. So far this is the most promising we've found.

[shamimoto]

In my experience (bad one) pedigree certificate provides little solace when the seller is keen to cheat. I bought a Belgian shepherd puppy from a Belgian in Pattaya at THB35,000. I was able allowed to see the father but the mom was mysteriously absent from view. Soon after arrival that puppy, now 3 yo, has cost me a hell lot of money (in 6 digits) for his hip and skin issues. Seller simply denied medical prognosis (Kasetsart Animal Hospital). Once adopted he became my family member and I could not ignore its condition. But I did hope that him being a pedigree certificate holder wouldn't face so many persistent health problems. Just to assure the readers, we love him no less than other GSD.

 

A lot of useful info in above posts. I would add that a buyer must also insist in seeing the biological father and mom of the puppy before adoption. All puppies look cute. 

[jak2002003]

9 minutes ago, shamimoto said:

In my experience (bad one) pedigree certificate provides little solace when the seller is keen to cheat. I bought a Belgian shepherd puppy from a Belgian in Pattaya at THB35,000. I was able allowed to see the father but the mom was mysteriously absent from view. Soon after arrival that puppy, now 3 yo, has cost me a hell lot of money (in 6 digits) for his hip and skin issues. Seller simply denied medical prognosis (Kasetsart Animal Hospital). Once adopted he became my family member and I could not ignore its condition. But I did hope that him being a pedigree certificate holder wouldn't face so many persistent health problems. Just to assure the readers, we love him no less than other GSD.

 

A lot of useful info in above posts. I would add that a buyer must also insist in seeing the biological father and mom of the puppy before adoption. All puppies look cute. 

Sorry to hear of your experience.  But you have found out the hard way that a 'pedigree' does not mean a 'healthy' dog.

 

 

[Bob12345]

On 9/4/2018 at 3:57 PM, shamimoto said:

A lot of useful info in above posts. I would add that a buyer must also insist in seeing the biological father and mom of the puppy before adoption. All puppies look cute. 

What I have seen is that many breeders in Thailand own the bitch and get the male dog from abroad.

That means the male dog will never be around to be seen, although there should be pictures around (at least on social media).

The female dog should be there as the pups need their milk and attention.

 

Lots of good advice given already here, and I want to add that it is always a lottery.

Just as with kids, you can never fully predict how they will turn out in the end no matter your skills and investments.

[Smithson]

In the end we didn't get a pedigree dog. Of all breeders we spoke to, not a single one asked about the home the dog would be going to. Most claimed the father was imported, but how would one know? We were lucky to get an Australian Cattle Dog that we're very happy with.

[jak2002003]

14 hours ago, Smithson said:

In the end we didn't get a pedigree dog. Of all breeders we spoke to, not a single one asked about the home the dog would be going to. Most claimed the father was imported, but how would one know? We were lucky to get an Australian Cattle Dog that we're very happy with.

Great.  You have any pic of him / her?   I have never seen an Australian Cattle dog here!  

 

 

[Smithson]

22 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Great.  You have any pic of him / her?   I have never seen an Australian Cattle dog here!  

 

 

Here you go Jack, she is nine months and much loved by the family. While heelers can have pedigrees, few do, they are a type of dog, rather than an exclusive breed. They come in different sizes and colors. They are a real working breed, favored more for traits and temperament than appearance.

[jvs]

1 minute ago, Smithson said:

Here you go Jack, she is nine months and much loved by the family. While heelers can have pedigrees, few do, they are a type of dog, rather than an exclusive breed. They come in different sizes and colors. They are a real working breed, favored more for traits and temperament than appearance.

Really nice blue heeler,i have seen them work cattle in Canada.tough as can be.