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Mental Health/drugs Problem With Thai Wife


simon43

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My interest in restructuring has nothing to do with the 'risk' of losing my money if she remains in control. I have my own income, so can withstand such a scenario. But I would hate to see our hotel business go sour due to some ill-conceived business decisions on her part, (like writing cheques when there is no money in the bank account...)

Additionally, although I only have a 49% share of the business partnership, my name is on the papers and I'm sure that I would also be in hot water if she commited some illegal or unwise act in the company name.

Simon

(This thread is turning into a business options discussion, rather than one about her illness....maybe we should close it and start a new thread in the business section...)

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One comment to make:

My wife said to me before she left for Udon that the only reason why she wanted to 'recover' was because she finally realised that if she did not, then I would certainly leave her.

Now, that suggests to me right now that her reason to recover is not because she herself wishes this, but rather that she realises that her 'good life' would be over if I left. (I'm putting aside the fact that she would still have control of the hotel assets, so would hardly be poor!).

I presume that therapy must try to persuade her that recovery is for her own benefit, and not just to stop her husband leaving her.

Simon

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I really hope it all works out for, particularly for you Simon. you sound like someone with a good heart, so I hope you get only the good things you deserve.

take care.

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One comment to make:

My wife said to me before she left for Udon that the only reason why she wanted to 'recover' was because she finally realised that if she did not, then I would certainly leave her.

Now, that suggests to me right now that her reason to recover is not because she herself wishes this, but rather that she realises that her 'good life' would be over if I left. (I'm putting aside the fact that she would still have control of the hotel assets, so would hardly be poor!).

I presume that therapy must try to persuade her that recovery is for her own benefit, and not just to stop her husband leaving her.

Simon

Hi Simon,

I also hope that therapy will increase her self awareness/insight and increase her motivation to adhere to the treatment regimen for whatever diagnoses are finally decided on.

At the same time, don't underestimate the value of negative consequences to help create and sustain motivation to change. In the long-term, motivation to change must come from inside. But, sometimes, in the short-term, and at the beginning of a difficult and demanding change process, motivation comes from an awareness of potential negative consequences (for example, the loss of something deeply valued such as a relationship, freedom, money, etc). In this case, that would be her losing you.

In fact, my personal belief is that a person who has never experienced significant negative consequences of their behavior (addictive, manic, controlling, rude, whatever), and has no expectation of future negative consequences for that behavior will not be motivated to change that behavior. This means that one of the most important things that people can do for someone they love who has a serious behavioral problem, like addiction, is to allow that person to suffer the negative consequences of their own behavior, rather than shield them from those consequences.

We sometimes call this tendency to shield people from the consequences of their own behavior- enabling. In some, but not all, situations, it means that we protect people we love from having to suffer life's (and our own) full fury brought about by their choices. It is done from love, and it is mistaken. Negative consequences help create the impetus for change. The opposite of enabling is usually referred to as "tough love" which has, unfortunately, become a fad label, and in some cases, an excuse to abuse people (personally, I don't like either of these terms, but the ideas they're meant to communicate are very imporant in situations like this)

Of course, there are plenty of people who experiences loads, literally tons, of negative consequences without changing. But people who do change can tell you why they did- and they will usually describe their suffering and negative experiences and losses as the original motivator.

Striking this balance between supporting someone you love, and setting limits, and seeing them suffer losses because of their choices is extremely difficult. I'm American and I've seen families/wives/husbands/parents/children struggle with this enormously. It is really difficult to do. No simple platitudes will help you do it. I suspect that it will be even harder in a Thai family (since giving money is regarded as a direct expression of love and devotion). It's a day-to-day thing, like slogging through the trenches. It's delicate and it's obvious, it's tiring and frustrating, and and it's no fun.

Based on what I have read, I believe that you have the determination and dedication necessary to give it a fair shake and make it work, if that's possible, given all the stuff that is not under your control. I also see that you have the support of many people, and know how to access more support when you need it. Your wife and her family are lucky to have a persistent, determined, dedicated and resourceful guy like you around when something like this happens.

Edited by benw
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Benw is absolutely correct.

One of the best things you can do for her, Simon, is to make it clear that you will leave her if she doesn't get help and comply with her treatment...and stick to that.

Meanwhile while you are securing your financial interests, I suggest you also take steps to get sole custody of your child. This doesn't preclude letting your wife take care of her in the future if/when she has recovered enough to do so, it just empowers you to restrict their contact when and as necessary to protect the child. It ensures that should your wife relapse and run off with the baby, you have the right to legal assistance in getting the child back.

Not to be pessimistic, but bipolar disorders are difficult to treat and relapses are common. As I mentioned before, once she is discharged the challenge will be to ensure she regularly takes her medication. If she doesn't, relapse is inevitable.

The problem is that the manic phase of bipolar disorder feels good to the patient and is accompanied by delusional thinking and exaggerated feelings of power and euphoria. Naturally, people in that state feel no need to change, at least not until they come crashing down, by which point a fair amount of damage has usually already been done.

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Sheryl - I understand your comments re obtaining sole custody of our son, but easier said than done! We are still married, with no divorce plans, and I am a foreigner in this country. I should imagine Taksin has more chance of being elected PM of the USA than I would have in gaining sole custody at the present time.....

Simon

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Benw - Also to respond to your comments about negative consequences, I fully agree with you. Right now, my wife has written cheques off an empty bank account. I will do my best to negotiate with her debtors. But if they see fit to press charges/contact the police etc, then she will have to face the music, and this could possibly mean jail-time. I will not let her 'off the hook' on this matter because her manic actions may have some very serious consequences which she has to recognise. There is only so much that I can do to put things right. Throwing money at this problem is not the answer - even if I had it!

Simon

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Mate, what a mess. All the best. Shit happens.

Sounds like you are well off and I bet she wasn't when you met her.

A complete reversal from my Thai wife and I.

Hope you don't mind me being blunt but do you think she has any respect for you at all?

2 years only. In all the cases I've seen like this it never ever works out.

Tough to do but get out the sooner the better is my honest advice.

Sounds like a bad woman not a sick woman.

Good luck if you can change her.

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Saraburioz - hear what you say and I bet most guys would have bailed out with all these hassles (that I don't need!). I'm sure I could start again in another place if I really wanted to :o

However, when the chips are down, it's the easy solution to drop everything and run. I would classify her as 'bad' if it were not for the fact that her actions were totally bizarre and incomprehensible. That convinced me (and doctors concur) that she is 'mad' (figuratively-speaking). Of course, she may also be bad, but time will tell on that one.

Simon

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Another perspective...

DEAR PRUDENCE: ADVICE ON MANNERS AND MORALS.

Perfect Stranger: I'VE DISCOVERED TERRIBLE THINGS ABOUT MY NEW WIFE. SHOULD I LEAVE HER?

Posted Thursday, Feb. 15, 2007, at 7:17 AM ET

Dear Prudence,

I was married a year and a half ago, after a probably too-brief courtship, to a woman who soon after the wedding was diagnosed as bipolar. I later discovered she had a previous history of mental illness that she had concealed from me. I feel as if I'm living with an emotional terrorist—I never know where or when the next bomb is going to go off. She is now on medication and things have gotten better, but better still isn't good. Intimacy, partnership, and equality are no longer real possibilities. We haven't slept in the same bed for over a year. Yes, we've tried counseling, and no, nothing improved. My wife is also financially irresponsible and routinely bounces checks. I discovered that she had tens of thousands of dollars in defaulted debt. I know that anyone reading this letter is going to say, "It's been less than two years, you were lied to, get out while you're still sane." But I feel tremendously guilty over the idea of abandoning someone who is mentally ill, and who in all likelihood could not survive on her own financially. Yet I also feel that I can't live the rest of my life trapped like this. I just need an impartial voice to tell me that if I end it, I'm not going to be condemned to hel_l for needing to move on in order to survive. If you're that voice, please speak up now. If you think I'm evading my responsibilities, please let me know.

—Torn

Dear Torn,

You're not going to be condemned to hel_l—you're already there. Bipolar disorder is a terrible illness, though fortunately it can be treated and controlled. But your wife sounds as if she's a long way from stability, if she will ever get there. At the least, she was obligated to disclose her mental and financial history to you. She didn't, so your marriage began in deceit. You say your survival is at stake here, so the question is not staying or going—it's how you go while doing the least damage to a woman you cared for enough to marry. You should discuss with both a therapist and a lawyer your desire to help her make the transition back to being on her own. And while you're talking to that therapist, try to figure out how you entered into a marriage with a virtual stranger.

—Prudie

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Sheryl - I understand your comments re obtaining sole custody of our son, but easier said than done! We are still married, with no divorce plans, and I am a foreigner in this country. I should imagine Taksin has more chance of being elected PM of the USA than I would have in gaining sole custody at the present time.....

Simon

Simon,

With proper Thai legal counsel I don't think that need be the case, especially with a documented mental illness in the mother. Read this thread with special note of JacknDanny's post:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...04933&st=15

Also note that parental kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand. In the absence of sole custody, your wife can legally take the child at any time without your consent and you would have no legal resource.

Of course, it will be easier if your wife's family don't contest it, and easier still if your wife doesn't. Would need to explain to her family, and to her if you can get her in a lucid moment, that it is just a precaution and that as long as she is well enough you have no intention of keeping her apart from her child.

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Simon,

If you check the mental health resource list posted at the top of this section you will see you have many selections of providers. I myself am listed. Speaking strictly from my side of the fence, the need to understand what makes people tick is very important. That has no connection to mental heath, but just know what they believe and how their logic works. Very simply as a therapist you need to make use of that logic to help them. I can’t speak for other therapist simply because everyone has a different level of assimilation to Thai thinking. If I was to say what you best possible choice would be, it would be a western trained Thai. That person then could blend the more advanced western therapy with Thai thinking. I think the rehab centre near Khon Kaen is possibly the best for a few reasons. The general rural surroundings is what she has been use to and it tends to be helpful to be in familiar surroundings. Also it is a Thai facility with Thai staff. Try to select a doctor there per above.

If you are seeking help for yourself then that is different, and it is not hard to see you could use a little reinforcement about now, however a good level headed friend could be just as effective for you at this point.

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Simon, you're obviously a decent guy. You've shown that on many occasions.

But - and I hate saying this - I can't help feeling that you're being played for a sucker here, and it's not for the first time.

There are a lot of people trying to make lots of excuses for your wife's behaviour but frankly it's beyond the pale. Bipolar? Yeah, maybe, but it's curious it's just coming on after she's getting involved with these ladyboys and their drugs. Her behaviour is completely unacceptable and you are such a nice guy that she - in my opinion - is taking advantage of it. And, lets face it, there was another incident recently when there was a big suspicion she was being less than honest over the sinsod payment for some girl in the village.

Love, children, affection etc . all those things come into play and it's ###### hard I know, but there comes a time when you have to realise that if something smells bad, looks bad, tastes bad and behaves bad . .well, it just possibly might be bad.

I hope for your sake I'm wrong.

I fear i might not be, and that you are going to be sucked dry in the next few years.

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I really feel for what you have been going through as I went through a similar thing myself, though not nearly as severe as you are now. You are obviously a caring person and have gone out of your way to help her, but you must not forget yourself. You can only help someone so much and after that you have to start drawing the line so as not to destroy yourself in the process. It is a delicate balance, which is so difficult when there are affectionate feeelings for someone. It may be necessary to start to see her as a charity case rather than a wife. It is difficult to explain this. My initial advise is to ensure that you strictly control the amount of money she has access to (ie give her a set amount of pocket money) no matter how much she objects. Also, ensure that she does not drive anywhere including by motorbike - as much as you can control this. Children need boundaries, no matter how much they rant and rave, otherwise, if they are given too much freedom they get lost. This is a terrible analogy, but with my situation, my girlfriend seemed to completely lose it, and, getting to basics, she had the mentality of a child but in a woman's body. If it gets to the stage where after doing as much as you can, and after putting all the controls in place, she still goes off, well, take peace in the fact you have done what you can, but as I said before, in the end you have to save yourself - no matter how callous it sounds. People will offer all sorts of advice, but only you know how you can act and must follow your instincts. Everybody acts differently when it comes to the crunch. Sorry if this is wafffling, but good luck!!

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Thanks Jessy. In a nutshell, I will not destroy my own life for the sake of 'saving' hers. But so far, even with her manic activities, it has been no worse than a very hectic day in the office :o Having to 'multitask' on a range of pressing and important different issues is a good brain exercise!

Also, I'm not about to treat my wife as a charity case. She needs to understand her illness, and learn to monitor and control it, with the support of friends and family. I'm sure her level of illness (although serious), is pretty minor when I think what it could be like.

Simon

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Hi Simon, I wish you well. Having just read over what I wrote, I didn't exactly mean treat her like a charity case - it sounds terrible - sorry about that. I think what I meant is that in order to dis-entangle oneself from all the emotions flying around, while at the same time trying to stay level headed (which is very difficult to do) there has to be a certain amount of space. Hmmm...I'm not helping. Anyway, moving on, I think that when one has come to terms with the initial shock (which happened to me when my girl disappeared) it is easier to rationalise it , put it into compartments, and deal with it, but the first few days while it's kicking off can be hel_l. As I said, I had all sorts of people giving me advise, which was very kind, but quite often unless people are going through it themselves, what they say they would do and what they actually do in a similar situation is quite different. You seem to be a level headed and intelligent person, so I hope you can follow your best judgement. Having said that, it is always good to know that others are there for moral support and I can tell you, that in the land of smiles such stories are not uncommon, so there is always someone who can understand. Again, good luck. Just one thing, the influence of peers can be strong, so nurturing the right kind of decent friends is essential - as is isolating those friends that are of bad influence and harmful to the well-being of everyone concerned.

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Simon, sorry to hear about this terrible situation mate.

You're a man of substance and no-one's fool, if anyone can get through this, it's you!

I've been married to my lady for nearly 9 years, although we have not even touched on the drama you have undergone, we have had ours ups and downs. Only you can see through this melee' and decide whether or not your relationship is the real deal. If it's real, then it's worth the pain.

Good luck sir !

Chon

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To quote what mig16 said simon, as i could not of said it better myself . you sound like someone with a good heart, so I hope you get only the good things you deserve. And i do hope your wife makes a full recovery.

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Well, what started out as a light-hearted problem about my wife/family and our hotel in Phuket has really taken on a serious note. I would appreciate advice from TV members. (As stated in previous threads, I don't really like to air my 'dirty washing' in public, but I am at my wit's end.)

My wife is 30 and we have been married for 2 years and have a young son of 9 months.

My wife has always been rather frail (physically). She usually weighs about 33kg and is 145cm short! She is a bit of a hypercondriac (spelling), and like to be fussed over by doctors and friends. I love her very much and am 100% faithful.

About 5 weeks ago, she seemed to go 'off the rails'. She started staying out all night with girlfriends and ladyboys, and visiting the Patong Thai karaoke bars. Despite promising to be home by midnight, or not going at all, she continued this bizarre behaviour, apparently oblivious to my concern and that of her family.

On one occasion a few weeks ago, she fell off a motobike taxi in Patong, and miscarried our new baby who was about 2 months in her womb. She seemed not to care.

She then stole our hotel car and crashed it...

The next day, she stole our replacement hire-car and crashed that in Patong into 3 motobikes. She ran off shoeless when the police tried to stop her. I had to pay for all these damages.

Over this period, she stole (and then lost) about 70,000 baht from me, and lost a 2 baht gold becklace from her mother - as well as her ATM cards.

I then found out that she had been taking drugs from her ladyboy 'friends'. This was not yaba, but sleeping pills that were washed down with alcohol.

We managed last week to get her back to our hotel, and then she returned yesterday with her mother to the Issan moobahn. The idea was that she would rest there for a month or so.

This afternoon, after her mother went to work, she 'ran away' again and is now on a minibus going to BKK. We are all very concerned and we have spoken to the minibus driver who is going to deliver her to her aunt's house in BKK. I fly tonight to BKK to bring her back to Phuket tomorrow.

This is the sorry state of affairs and I really do not know what to do with her after she comes back to Phuket. For her, it is a dangerous place and she has already taken small overdoses of sleeping pills before.

I really need to get her into a secure and safe place where she can be looked after and treated. I'll state again that I love her very much and am not going to 'abandon' her - which would be a very easy thing for me to do.

Sorry for this sob story :D I'd appreciate your advice.

Simon

Simon, I've been following you a bit the past year and know how busy you have been realizing your dream-hotel.

But this is a very serious condition your wife is in right now.

She might be suffering from a Postnatal depression/syndrom which has many 'faces' so to speak.

First your newborn of 9 months old and losing the second one a few weeks ago.

That's quite dramatic in such a short period, for any mother.

She 'seems' not to care, losing her baby, but that might not be the truth...at all !

First of all you might try to stop her contact all those so-called girlfriends/ladyboys. Can you hire a 'wise' Thai couple where the lady takes care of her and him 'watching' her and the so called girlfriends (not to contact/visit her) ?

I doubt if it were just sleepingpills she was taking; the things she did; accidents etc. indicates she has been taking other 'stuff' as well. She could be lying about that...

It's quite a long way from your hotel to Patong and she might have killed herself and/or others, driving in such a condition.

She needs professional help !

Wish you and your wife all the best.

ps: I've sent you a PM.

LaoPo

Simon,

As our good friend LaoPo has accurately pointed to possible cause, post natal depression. There is another intriguing aspect to this. I did not really intended to do this statistical observation but in past 5 years, I know similar behavior, from Thai girls, irrespective of to whom they were married to, if they had children or not. So long as they were in some form of relationship, they all go through this phase. About 24 of them that I have recorded in my notes. Common factor, Thai girls, between age of 28-32. I have no idea about the cause of such behavior.

Good news is, it gets over. Most of them, had to reply on some form of psychological assistance. It could even a simple thing like taking them to senior respected monks and talking about the issue in a non confrontation manner. Couple of cases actually thought they were possessed and hence did some sort of exorcism, it worked. After all even that procedure is more psychological assistance for them. Now in your case it could be co incidental. But either way, I strongly suggest you must seek professional advise. All my best wishes for you and your family. Trust in the process of life. It will be all so over soon.

I have PM some more information Simon. I know am reply a tart bit late.

:o

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Simon, I have been keeping myself updated on your very trying situation, you seem one hel_l of a guy, however, I fail to see how you can concentrate fully on either your hotel OR your wife in such circumstances.

Surely you need to take the time to get away from Phuket for a short period to give your wife 100% of your very valuable time.

I say this as a way of trying to help you and for that reason only, I am a Chief Engineer working in BKK, I have been here 5 years and would willingly take a weeks leave to come and look after your hotel whilst you took the time with your wife. All I would need is a room and one meal a day, I would not accept payment. I merely want to help out.

Please PM me if you wish to discuss further or for any other way you would need help

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Hi - thanks for your very kind offer! I know very well that I don't have enough time to devote to both my hotel and my wife. I've actually been able to employ 2 new Thai staff members who speak good English and have previous hotel experience. They will take over the majority of my management requirement as from later this week. I will just deal with the internet bookings etc, (which I can do from any location).

It is likely that I will leave my hotel in management hands, (with regular monitoring/visits from me), and that I will move to Issan to stay with my wife. I know also that I have been working very hard, which wasn't really the plan when I first came to LoS! So I think both me and my wife need a break together.

Our plan is to move to Nong Khai, which is my wife's home-town. So I'm currently looking to rent a nice house or guesthouse etc. My wife is very keen to move there and for us to relax more - together :o

Once again - your offer (and the advice/help from many TV members) is VERY appreciated.

Simon

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Well, what started out as a light-hearted problem about my wife/family and our hotel in Phuket has really taken on a serious note. I would appreciate advice from TV members. (As stated in previous threads, I don't really like to air my 'dirty washing' in public, but I am at my wit's end.)

My wife is 30 and we have been married for 2 years and have a young son of 9 months.

My wife has always been rather frail (physically). She usually weighs about 33kg and is 145cm short! She is a bit of a hypercondriac (spelling), and like to be fussed over by doctors and friends. I love her very much and am 100% faithful.

About 5 weeks ago, she seemed to go 'off the rails'. She started staying out all night with girlfriends and ladyboys, and visiting the Patong Thai karaoke bars. Despite promising to be home by midnight, or not going at all, she continued this bizarre behaviour, apparently oblivious to my concern and that of her family.

On one occasion a few weeks ago, she fell off a motobike taxi in Patong, and miscarried our new baby who was about 2 months in her womb. She seemed not to care.

She then stole our hotel car and crashed it...

The next day, she stole our replacement hire-car and crashed that in Patong into 3 motobikes. She ran off shoeless when the police tried to stop her. I had to pay for all these damages.

Over this period, she stole (and then lost) about 70,000 baht from me, and lost a 2 baht gold becklace from her mother - as well as her ATM cards.

I then found out that she had been taking drugs from her ladyboy 'friends'. This was not yaba, but sleeping pills that were washed down with alcohol.

We managed last week to get her back to our hotel, and then she returned yesterday with her mother to the Issan moobahn. The idea was that she would rest there for a month or so.

This afternoon, after her mother went to work, she 'ran away' again and is now on a minibus going to BKK. We are all very concerned and we have spoken to the minibus driver who is going to deliver her to her aunt's house in BKK. I fly tonight to BKK to bring her back to Phuket tomorrow.

This is the sorry state of affairs and I really do not know what to do with her after she comes back to Phuket. For her, it is a dangerous place and she has already taken small overdoses of sleeping pills before.

I really need to get her into a secure and safe place where she can be looked after and treated. I'll state again that I love her very much and am not going to 'abandon' her - which would be a very easy thing for me to do.

Sorry for this sob story :D I'd appreciate your advice.

Simon

I hate to say this ,but I have a lot of experience here,,,, regardless of what she says these are classic symptoms of Yaba addiction.If she's had verifiable blood work to rule this out,then I stand corrected,but indvividuals addicted to sleeping pills don't exibit this characteristic behavior...........I suggest she's moving into a psychotic stage............Isolate and treat her ,and under no circumstances allow that ladyboy near her..........she'll need at least a few months to recover and you must be more assertive with her and wh :o om she's allowed to associate with or you will loose her............................sean

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Simon,

I'm going to suggest again that if you have the time and inclination, Dan Boyd at PSI in Bangkok is an excellent therapist with much experience working with the issues you are facing. PM me if you want a phone number and info.

While she is the one with the mental illness, Simon, it might not hurt for you to get some counseling yourself. Just to help get some perspective, if you have the time.

Good luck.

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I have only read the first few posts in this thread and then a couple of the last few......anwyay my initial thoughts was that your wife could be suffering from post ................. stress ....I forget the actual name.....but it's something that can hit a woman after giving birth. I dont think it is very common but it's also not unknown and can be terrible. Some cases have been extremely bad and the danger is not just to property or herself.....it could be to you and your child. Whatever it is ..she needs some psych input for sure...!!

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Just heard from my wife's family in Issan that she made another 'escape bid' today! Since she is miles from anywhere and had no money, they caught up with her fairly quickly. Apparently she 'forgot' to take her medicine this morning. I spoke with her this morning and she sounded just fine, and told me that she had taken the medicine....(so she lied..)

She also told her mother after the event that she had a very bad headache and had to run away. She has mentioned splitting headaches before. Apparently, when she runs, she is like an olympic sprinter! She was over the fence and running faster than the village children. She was only stopped by other villagers who caught her as she ran past.

If she has these manic moments after missing her medicine for just one day, does that not suggest that her dosage is too low? She has sounded quite happy for the past week or so, so this event was a surprise.

Also, what is she trying to run away from? She knows that I have resolved all the money problems that she previously caused, so she should not have anything to worry about.

Since they are miles from the nearest hospital, they have given her a massage which has calmed her down and they will take her to Udon Thani hospital tomorrow where they will give her a brain scan. (For sure, she has had no access to drugs or alcohol for several weeks now).

My intention is to relocate to Issan and live together. But it sounds like I need to build a fortress to stop her running away :o

Simon

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It's possible that the medication the doctors gave her was to treat her bipolar disorder. The compulsion and obsession to use the other psychoactive substances she acquired from her street friends may not be being treated. Addiction is a cunning, baffling and powerful disease not to be underestimated. The irrational running away is very ordinary behavior in the addictive syndrome.

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