Income Affidavit Denied in Phuket

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

suspect the reason Thai immigration want embassy letter is because foreign issued documents have no jurisdiction outside country of issue unless legalised.

Actually- I believe they just want an easy way out- a foreign letter with a seal- done.  UK/US Embassy upset the natural order. Obviously neither institution have any understanding  of  Thais and how they think.

[Ebumbu]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Embassy income letters documenting monthly income HAVE generally been accepted by Thai Immigration as sufficient proof, though they've always had the right to ask for backup documents if they choose.

 

But the point is now, even though the OP presumably had a valid Embassy income affidavit, the Immigration Officer apparently wasn't willing to accept it or rely on it. This coming at a time when Immigration has basically forced the U.S. and U.K. embassies to stop issuing such letters. So....

 

it's one thing if the IO would have accepted the OP's perfectly valid income affidavit, and just wanted to see backup documentation.

 

it's an entirely different thing if , as the OP seemed to be suggesting, she wasn't going to accept it period, regardless of whether the OP had backup documents from the U.S. supporting his declaration.

 

The answer to that detail would be pretty important for all the U.S. and UK extension applicants in Phuket who may plan on submitting valid Embassy income affidavits between now and mid 2019.

 

 

 

This. I can show I deposited 800k into Thai bank in 2018 (in various chunks), no problem. What I cannot do is season 800k by December. So, this is very disturbing. 

 

Could I have SCB bank print out and notarize some official looking document certifying my bank statement? I have already deposited 800k+ and will deposit another 300k+ by end of year when I need to renew. But if income method has been cancelled, I need to make moving plans in a hurry. I'm not married. Doing retirement extension. 

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Ebumbu

[moontang]

14 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Prachinburi

 

But my point in posting this was  how I do it, in answer to people wanting to know how one would demonstrate where funds came from.

 

Doers not solve the problem of those living off funds obtained through investment in Thailand or property rental in Thailand, but will work for those whose funds come from abroad.

The entry in your passbook indicates if it is from abroad. 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, moontang said:

The entry in your passbook indicates if it is from abroad.

There is nothing in the current police order that indicates funds deposited must be  originated from abroad excerpt for those changing from an exempt entry/tourist visa to a Non O so as to be able to proceed with a retirement or marriage extension. There have been many posts regarding this system.  Once the Non O is obtained one can obtain the required funds from any source and have it deposited.  I could bring the funds in from aborad; i can borrow from a friend; I can get a loan; i can cary the funds in  when I arrive by plane and declare them at customs- on and on. Never a problem in the past that I have ever experienced. the future- who knows!!

[Aforek]

My immigration office is Prachinburi, too, and I have the 800000 method, too, but they didn't ask where the money came from, even 10 days ago for my extension ( O-A )

for the story of income letter, it seems  to be so far an US/GB story, my embassy ( French ) told me they don't change anything, but who knows, things are so strange here 

!

Edited October 31, 2018 by Aforek

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

35 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

 

This. I can show I deposited 800k into Thai bank in 2018 (in various chunks), no problem. What I cannot do is season 800k by December. So, this is very disturbing. 

 

Could I have SCB bank print out and notarize some official looking document certifying my bank statement? I have already deposited 800k+ and will deposit another 300k+ by end of year when I need to renew. But if income method has been cancelled, I need to make moving plans in a hurry. I'm not married. Doing retirement extension. 

 

 

You do realize, absolutely nothing has changed regarding the method of obtaining a retirement extension through showing at least 800,000 baht deposited in a Thai bank account.

 

You'd document that the same way this coming year as anyone would have last year -- a letter from Thai your bank certifying your account balance just before your Immigration trip, and your Thai bank book showing the required 800K has been on deposit at least 3 months prior to your extension application.

 

It's only the monthly income method, and income letters from the U.S. and UK Embassies, that's been turned on its head lately and for the future.

 

If you mean you've used the monthly income method in the past and now worry about getting caught out, the OP's post re Phuket Immigration is ONE report thus far. The UK and US Embassies are going to continue issuing income letters until this December, and those are SUPPOSED to be valid with Immigration for up to 6 months from their issue date.

 

Whether Immigration in Phuket and elsewhere will actually honor that traditional practice/policy in this new era is a different, and as yet, unknown issue. The two Embassies have claimed Immigration will honor their letters... Who knows...

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[steve73]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

<snip>

 

Even though I use the 800K method my Imm office requires proof the money came from overseas, I get that in a bank letter and for that I have to show the bank the various credit advices. They then include the details in their letter, describing briefly each transfer.

 

 

Can you please clarify whether you mean you use 800k of annual income into your Thai bank or 800k minimum balance of savings for the past 3 months?

 

If it's the latter it marks a radical divergence from the previous adopted policy..

 

[Ebumbu]

My comments below are about the income method, related to type-O visa extensions (based on retirement), not the 800k baht savings method: 

I've just been speaking with a volunteer at Phuket immigrations. My takeaway is that Phuket immigrations now want "guaranteed" income if someone is using the income method. A guaranteed method would be something like a pension or it will be rejected. That is, even with an affidavit. It won't fly unless the IO considers your income "guaranteed." 

 

I asked this volunteer if in their personal experience, they are seeing Americans rejected who have a valid US embassy affidavits and even have some other "proof." This volunteer confirmed, YES, that is correct. 

 

I asked what is considered guaranteed income. There is no definitive answer to that question. It seems to be completely at the discretion of officer and unreliable. Here is exactly what they said: 

 

Quote

the only guaranteed income Phuket Immigration is like a pension, any other income which is not 100 % guaranteed for the next 12 month like interest rate or income from shareholders could not be accepted.

 

Quote

just to let you know again, the immigration officer must get the feeling that your income is somehow guaranteed for the next 12 months and then it will be accepted.

 

In my mind, this effectively ends the income method for Americans in Phuket who do not have a government pension, or something Thai immigrations considers guaranteed.

Looks like I've been effectively evicted from Phuket without warning. I'm going to turn into one of these sour TV curmudgeons at this rate. No rules. Goalpost keeps moving. You might find out when it's too late. I think I'll need to scramble and make a mad dash to Jomtien before the end of the year. Any suggestions? 

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

In my mind, this effectively ends the income method for Americans in Phuket who do not have a government pension, or something Thai immigrations considers guaranteed.

Looks like I've been effectively evicted from Phuket without warning. I'm going to turn into one of these sour TV curmudgeons at this rate. No rules. Goalpost keeps moving. You might find out when it's too late. I think I'll need to scramble and make a mad dash to Jomtien before the end of the year. Any suggestions? 

I would not count on better treatment in Jomtien.  While the retirement-desk there has been friendly in the past, they could jump on this "embassy letter no good" bandwagon, and use this as one more way to force people to agents.

 

If moving to Jomtien, I would plan on possibly paying 20K Baht or more to an agent - so if you like Phuket, see if you can get a similar deal there.  No money needed - the agents "sponsor" (read "fake") it.  Many immigration offices just want a brown-envelope, and couldn't care less how much money/income you have beyond their payoff.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

22 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

I've just been speaking with a volunteer at Phuket immigrations. My takeaway is that Phuket immigrations now want "guaranteed" income if someone is using the income method. A guaranteed method would be something like a pension or it will be rejected. That is, even with an affidavit. It won't fly unless the IO considers your income "guaranteed." 

 

 

You realize, the explanation you're relating here from the Phuket Immigration volunteer about guaranteed monthly income is different from the version the OP here reported from his talk with the Immigration Officer there, who he claimed said they would only accept the bank deposit method.

 

That's the problem with trying to ascertain what Thai Immigration's actual policy is going to be, based on conversations with individual, low-level officers/staff. They may or may not correctly be relating or understanding what Immigration HQ is going to dictate, if they've actually dictated ANYTHING internally at this point. And thus far, all we know is, there's been public SILENCE from Immigration HQ.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ElephantEgo]

Well I am transferring in some extra some funds from abroad and already have the 400k starting to season. Once I have my bank book showing 480k came in from oversees in the past months (will be ready in 2-4 days) I will plan to go in and apply again, and see what they say. I might also ask my bank for a letter and stamp....

But as the income is not guaranteed for the NEXT 12 months in the form of some certified pension or trust fund or etc.... Truly they might not accept it as others are discussing here. The lady IO today actually mentioned something about it: only works for military or etc. type of provable income.... I think, she didnt speak much English (she spoke to my wife mostly).

The German-Thai-English speaking volunteer upstairs at immigration today said he would plan to go talk with the lady officer who shot down my affidavit today... I will try to follow up with him and see what came of their talk... Anyways I am financially ready for the seasoning method if all else fails....

I will let yall know how it goes if/when I have any more news to share...
 

[Ebumbu]

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I would not count on better treatment in Jomtien.  While the retirement-desk there has been friendly in the past, they could jump on this "embassy letter no good" bandwagon, and use this as one more way to force people to agents.

 

If moving to Jomtien, I would plan on possibly paying 20K Baht or more to an agent - so if you like Phuket, see if you can get a similar deal there.  No money needed - the agents "sponsor" (read "fake") it.  Many immigration offices just want a brown-envelope, and couldn't care less how much money/income you have beyond their payoff.

 

Thank you for your suggestion. 

 

I would be totally fine with paying an agent 20,000 baht to fix this. Is that about right? You think that's what's happening here? If so, I'll do it in Phuket. As it stands, this has turned everything on its head for me.

I'm not breaking any laws, as they are written. I am delighted to pay 20,000 baht and get this nightmare behind me. Next year, we'll see how I feel and what new goalposts have been set. I'm worried about December 2018. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Ebumbu

[Ebumbu]

27 minutes ago, JakeR said:

Well I am transferring in some extra some funds from abroad and already have the 400k starting to season. Once I have my bank book showing 480k came in from oversees in the past months (will be ready in 2-4 days) I will plan to go in and apply again, and see what they say. I might also ask my bank for a letter and stamp....

But as the income is not guaranteed for the NEXT 12 months in the form of some certified pension or trust fund or etc.... Truly they might not accept it as others are discussing here. The lady IO today actually mentioned something about it: only works for military or etc. type of provable income.... I think, she didnt speak much English (she spoke to my wife mostly).

The German-Thai-English speaking volunteer upstairs at immigration today said he would plan to go talk with the lady officer who shot down my affidavit today... I will try to follow up with him and see what came of their talk... Anyways I am financially ready for the seasoning method if all else fails....

I will let yall know how it goes if/when I have any more news to share...
 

 

Good luck. Following with baited breath (and brown envelope). 

[JackThompson]

23 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

Thank you for your suggestion. 

 

I would be totally fine with paying an agent 20,000 baht to fix this. Is that about right? You think that's what's happening here? If so, I'll do it in Phuket. As it stands, this has turned everything on its head for me.

I'm not breaking any laws, as they are written. I am delighted to pay 20,000 baht and get this nightmare behind me. Next year, we'll see how I feel and what new goalposts have been set. I'm worried about December 2018. 

I hate to suggest it.  Sad to think they profit from this sick activity.  I went out to a consulate for a Non-O Multi Visa to avoid giving the IOs any agent-gravy.  But if you are thinking of moving, and given it might not help (or only a year at most, before who knows what the rules are)... options are limited.

[Ebumbu]

Does anyone know: Is Bangkok immigrations still definitely accepting the affidavit from Americans? I'd be fine with moving there. It was in my longer-term plans, but can expedite that. Phuket doesn't want me.  ???? 

[Ebumbu]

6 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I hate to suggest it.  Sad to think they profit from this sick activity.  I went out to a consulate for a Non-O Multi Visa to avoid giving the IOs any agent-gravy.  But if you are thinking of moving, and given it might not help (or only a year at most, before who knows what the rules are)... options are limited.

 

What area of Thailand is my best bet? Bangkok? Yes, I'm going to get the heck out of Dodge (Phuket). I can't have my life (and pets) hang in the balance of fickle rules that are not written and may or may not require gravy and who knows?

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

Does anyone know: Is Bangkok immigrations still definitely accepting the affidavit from Americans? I'd be fine with moving there. It was in my longer-term plans, but can expedite that. Phuket doesn't want me.  ???? 

 

From all indications, yes, Embassy income affidavits from the U.S. and UK Embassies are still being accepted by BKK CW Immigration for retirement and marriage extensions of stay.

 

Depending on your circumstances, they MIGHT also ask you to show some supporting documents that support the income claimed on your affidavit, especially if it's for your first application there. Or they might not. But best to bring such things with you, if you can, just in case.

 

But they shouldn't simply reject your Income affidavit out of hand. No reports of that at all from BKK Immigration.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Ebumbu]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

From all indications, yes, Embassy income affidavits from the U.S. and UK Embassies are still being accepted by BKK CW Immigration for retirement and marriage extensions of stay.

 

Thank you sir. This has been a crappy day. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

51 minutes ago, JakeR said:

Well I am transferring in some extra some funds from abroad and already have the 400k starting to season. Once I have my bank book showing 480k came in from oversees in the past months (will be ready in 2-4 days) I will plan to go in and apply again, and see what they say. I might also ask my bank for a letter and stamp....

But as the income is not guaranteed for the NEXT 12 months in the form of some certified pension or trust fund or etc.... Truly they might not accept it as others are discussing here. The lady IO today actually mentioned something about it: only works for military or etc. type of provable income.... I think, she didnt speak much English (she spoke to my wife mostly).

The German-Thai-English speaking volunteer upstairs at immigration today said he would plan to go talk with the lady officer who shot down my affidavit today... I will try to follow up with him and see what came of their talk... Anyways I am financially ready for the seasoning method if all else fails....

I will let yall know how it goes if/when I have any more news to share...
 

 

I asked above, but I don't think you ever answered:

 

When you met with the Immigration officer at Phuket Immigration:

 

1. Did you have any documents with you from the U.S. verifying/supporting the income that was claimed on your Embassy Income affidavit (like bank statements, pension statements, etc etc)?

 

2. And if you did have any such documents with you for that meeting, did you show them to the IO or try to show them to the IO, and what if anything came from that?

 

[maesai]

16 hours ago, Sheryl said:

When money is transferred from oversees there is something called a "credit advice" that comes in. Your bank HQ will have it.

 

Even though I use the 800K method my Imm office requires proof the money came from overseas, I get that in a bank letter and for that I have to show the bank the various credit advices. They then include the details in their letter, describing briefly each transfer.

 

You can arrange with most banks to have these Credit Advices sent to you routinely. Then when extension time comes around you bring them to the bank and have them include this info in a letter, i.e. Mr X bank account number X has received X transfers from abroad into his account as follows:  (amounts, dates, where from)"

 

This is what a Credit Advice from Kasikorn bank looks like:

 

 

Can you get a Credit Advice when using Bangkok Bank's ACH method of funds transfer rather than bank wire transfer?

[uffe123]

Best thing to do, leave and go some other place where you are are not treated like chit, like alot of other expats are doing. There are many other places, actually better than this place. Malaysia for one, if you  want to stay in asia. 

The cost of living here is higher that in the U.S. everything considered, and there you don't have to draw a map of where you live. What a joke

[1337markus]

18 hours ago, JakeR said:

@Ubonjoe maybe I should go back with a bank statement showing deposits from overseas in the past 12 months totaling 480,000 THB? I guess it would be worth a try? Since I have to go there two more times anyways.

 

Worrying thing is that she didnt even check for it or ask about it or request it....

Hoping you get another IO. Every day the process changes, often made up by the IO.

[hobobo]

19 hours ago, JakeR said:

In this case what do I bring? Just an account statement showing those transactions? Or simply should ask the bank for a relevant letter etc?

From similar experiences over the years I finally bought a small HP printer and before going for my annual extension I copy every page in my passport, every page of my 3 bank books, my FCD statements and every possible document relating to my stay in Thailand, including that of my landlord. At just under one baht per page in draft mode, I don't mind spending the extra 50 baht once a year. And it keeps the Jomtien IO people happy. On my last visit in August the lady even commented on how well organised I was!

 

I hope your problems get sorted out soon and painlessly.

[soalbundy]

13 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Actually- I believe they just want an easy way out- a foreign letter with a seal- done.  UK/US Embassy upset the natural order. Obviously neither institution have any understanding  of  Thais and how they think.

Also my line of thinking, the UK and US has p1ssed TI off and now they are going for the jugular, not a comforting thought.

[Thaidream]

22 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Also my line of thinking, the UK and US has p1ssed TI off and now they are going for the jugular, not a comforting thought.

I was siting here thinking exactly that- when you are the Commissioner of Immigration- there is an expectation people will listen to you- a compromise could have easily been reached- it's the Thai way- BE and US Embassy- said NO- loud and clear with no hint of negotiation. An insulting answer in my opinion. I don't feel comfortable at all ......I am actually hoping after the election... the Commissioner gets a promotion and moves on..

[ronjomtien]

chon buri immigration....showed USA income letter for 1 year extension...60 seconds later, finished, home

[Sheryl]

The entry in your passbook indicates if it is from abroad. 

Not in my passbook. Just shows Transfer. No indication of from where.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Sheryl]

 

Can you please clarify whether you mean you use 800k of annual income into your Thai bank or 800k minimum balance of savings for the past 3 months?

 

If it's the latter it marks a radical divergence from the previous adopted policy..

 

The latter. Always have. But this is just one IO. And not a change, long standing.

 

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

Can you get a Credit Advice when using Bangkok Bank's ACH method of funds transfer rather than bank wire transfer?

No idea as I've never done it. But should be possible to get a letter from Bangkok Bank attesting to the transfers in from abroad if needed. Note that it is not yet clear it will be.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Not in my passbook. Just shows Transfer. No indication of from where.

Mine in my Bangkok Bank book has FTT (foreign telex transfer) in the code column.