many teachers caught in crackdown

[My Thai Life]

According to this news article a large number of the 3,501 foreigners nabbed in the recent campaign to remove illegals are working in schools.

 

https://www.matichon.co.th/local/crime/news_1185571

 

 

 

[BurgerGung]

In 2016, a teacher was arrested at a private Primary school in Lamphun. He was from Cameroon and had bought "VISA stamps" @ 30,000 THB each for 2 or 3 years... Africans are now required to apply at an embassy in Africa AFAIK. Someone said, Malaysia would be an option, too. Seems many were avoiding the legal route. But it does take two to tango. They should haul some administrators and P'Or s to jail, too (which won't happen).

[My Thai Life]

The deportees that I have been made aware of personally (ie not through the press or online) are all farangs, including

 

> teachers with work permits working illegally outside of their place of employment

> people teaching in schools without work permits

> people teaching freelance (no work permit possible of course)

> people teaching online (no work permit possible of course).

 

They're usualy fined too. All the above in the last 2 years.

 

My experience is that sometimes administrators are not aware of the rules, just as some faranags aren't. This is incredible to the rest of us I know.

 

Gaol seems a bit excessive to me, but yes it does take two to tango, even if they're dancing in the dark, unaware of the rules.

[sanemax]

Thailand expelling English teachers and Thais English proficiency declining ..............now theres  a coincidence 

[My Thai Life]

I would guess that in general the people they are arresting, fining, deporting, and barring re-entry are not really teachers.

 

Teachers would have no problems in getting decent jobs with work permits, and are smart enough to understand simple rules of employment in foreign countries.

[brewsterbudgen]

The deportees that I have been made aware of personally (ie not through the press or online) are all farangs, including
 
> teachers with work permits working illegally outside of their place of employment
> people teaching in schools without work permits
> people teaching freelance (no work permit possible of course)
> people teaching online (no work permit possible of course).
 
They're usualy fined too. All the above in the last 2 years.
 
My experience is that sometimes administrators are not aware of the rules, just as some faranags aren't. This is incredible to the rest of us I know.
 
Gaol seems a bit excessive to me, but yes it does take two to tango, even if they're dancing in the dark, unaware of the rules.

So nothing new then?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

So nothing new then?

Well if you already knew about this level of arrest of illegal "teachers" then you've been keeping it to yourself. Or maybe you're being ironic.

 

The precise number of "teachers" deported isn't referred to in the article that I linked to, but it seems to be in the low thousands - less than 3,000 anyway, which is a huge amount more than has ever been talked about on this forum before. In fact, posters have regularly denied that farang "teachers" are being deported at all.

 

Plus, I have seen regular postings on various Thai forums from people with work permits moonlighting in their "free" time, and advising others how to do so. This has alway been illegal - work permits in any country relate solely to your employer - but it seems it's only in the last year or two that this law has been enforced.

 

Plus plus, the illegality of online teaching has also been questioned, not least of all on this forum. I followed those debates with interest and I have no intention of reopening them or participating in them. The simple fact is that online teaching is not legal for foreigners here, and people have been deported for it - as explained to me by Thai Immigration. For backpackers on "visa" on arrival this may not be important (apart from the fact that they probably can't afford the fine), but for people here on marriage or retirement stays the consequences would be life-changing.

 

The rules have changed substantially in the last 2 or 3 years, and the enforcement of those rules is now taken much more seriously. People who have been here a long time may feel that they have got away with it for so long that they’ll never be caught, but the times they are a-changing.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Plus, I have seen regular postings on various Thai forums from people with work permits moonlighting in their "free" time, and advising others how to do so. This has always been illegal - work permits in any country relate solely to your employer - but it seems it's only in the last year or two that this law has been enforced.

You seem very sure that you know the rules about everything.

 

So....how about the new work permit laws, passed in July this year, that make the above totally wrong???

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

You seem very sure that you know the rules about everything.

 

So....how about the new work permit laws, passed in July this year, that make the above totally wrong???

Yes I am very sure. My certainty comes from wide experience and the fact that my work brings me into frequent contact with the MoE and Immigration, and my information comes from those contacts, not from internet chat.

 

The "new work permit laws" have nothing whatsoever to do with teachers or anything that affects professional expat employment, despite the frenzied wishful thinking among some sections of the expat community, and attempts by some law firms to hype it up for their business.

[youreavinalaff]

Can you read whilst sitting on your high horse?

 

If not, I would suggest you get off and have a good read. The new rules have everything to do with expat employment. 

 

You could start here, although there is no English version yet : www.doe.go.th

 

[My Thai Life]

17 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

You could start here, although there is no English version yet : www.doe.go.th

Please post the specific page URL that you think provides the information about how the "new work permit laws" affect teachers and I'll look into it, thanks.

 

By the way, the site you linked to does have an English language version, you just have to toggle the language option from Thai to English.

 

 

 

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

45 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Please post the specific page URL that you think provides the information about how the "new work permit laws" affect teachers and I'll look into it, thanks.

 

By the way, the site you linked to does have an English language version, you just have to toggle the language option from Thai to English.

 

 

 

 

 

The new law is yet to be posted in English. I can see the website has an English version. I can read Thai so don;t need it.

 

Maybe you can get one of your buddies at MOE to read it to you.

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

The new law is yet to be posted in English. I can see the website has an English version. I can read Thai so don;t need it.

 

Maybe you can get one of your buddies at MOE to read it to you.

Great! So please post the specific URL for the Thai language page that you think provides the information about how the "new work permit laws" affect teachers and I'll look into it, thanks.

[youreavinalaff]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Great! So please post the specific URL for the Thai language page that you think provides the information about how the "new work permit laws" affect teachers and I'll look into it, thanks.

I already have. Please read it. Thanks.

[My Thai Life]

The URL you sent is to the main page - anyone can see that just by looking at the URL address in your post. Following that link takes you to a menu page, as you would expect. It is not about teachers.

 

If you think you really have some relevant infomation about teachers please share it with a specific page URL.

[youreavinalaff]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The URL you sent is to the main page - anyone can see that just by looking at the URL address in your post. Following that link takes you to a menu page, as you would expect. It is not about teachers.

 

If you think you really have some relevant infomation about teachers please share it with a specific page URL.

You seem to be hung up about teachers. I have never mentioned anything teacher specific. The new laws cover ALL expats with work permits here in Thailand.

[My Thai Life]

19 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

You seem to be hung up about teachers. I have never mentioned anything teacher specific. The new laws cover ALL expats with work permits here in Thailand.

Well this is the teachers' forum. And this thread is specifically about teachers.

 

But that doesn't change what I said earlier about your link - it goes to a front page, with menu links, as you would expect. It has no relevant information.

 

The rule changes that you refer to have absolutely nothing to do with employment law relating to professionals. To a large extent the changes relate to "migrant labour", mainly manual workers from neighbouring countries. For example, the recent MoU regulations relate to a memorandum of understanding with Myanmar regarding manual workers, I believe about 70,000 have recently been processed under that protocol.

 

There are a number of threads on TVF regarding these changes. They are full of wishful thinking I'm sorry to say. But I'd like to keep this thread on topic if I may.

 

If there is any teacher here who believes that their working conditions or contractual terms have been changed by these new rules, I'd genuinely like to hear from them.  My job requires me to keep fully informed of labour law regarding teachers, and I am confident that my working relationships with the MoE and Immigration enable me to do that, and I'm always open to new information. thanks.

 

[youreavinalaff]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Well this is the teachers' forum. And this thread is specifically about teachers.

 

But that doesn't change what I said earlier about your link - it goes to a front page, with menu links, as you would expect. It has no relevant information.

 

The rule changes that you refer to have absolutely nothing to do with employment law relating to professionals. To a large extent the changes relate to "migrant labour", mainly manual workers from neighbouring countries. For example, the recent MoU regulations relate to a memorandum of understanding with Myanmar regarding manual workers, I believe about 70,000 have recently been processed under that protocol.

 

There are a number of threads on TVF regarding these changes. They are full of wishful thinking I'm sorry to say. But I'd like to keep this thread on topic if I may.

 

If there is any teacher here who believes that their working conditions or contractual terms have been changed by these new rules, I'd genuinely like to hear from them.  My job requires me to keep fully informed of labour law regarding teachers, and I am confident that my working relationships with the MoE and Immigration enable me to do that, and I'm always open to new information. thanks.

 

Excellent. So please go ahead and read the new law as stated on the website. You may learn something.

[My Thai Life]

4 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Excellent. So please go ahead and read the new law as stated on the website. You may learn something.

Except that what you are linking to isn't new, for me at least.

 

As I mentioned earlier, It's part of my job to keep abreast of changes to Thai iabour law that affect teachers, and I went through these changes in some detail as they occurred. There is nothing that affects teachers.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the vast majority of the changes are related to migrant manual labour. Changes relevant to professionals are limted to the opening up of a few professions to foregners, for example, accountancy, civil engineering, and architecture, and are driven by ASEAN regulations.

 

English language teaching has always been a profession that's open to foreigners, for obvious reasons.

 

This thread is about changes to the enforcement of employment law related to teachers, and to changes in employment law related to teachers.

 

So far you have not said anything relevant to the topic. Most of the posters on this teacher forum are involved in education in one way or another, so there is a fair bit of experience scattered around the group, and to date I have heard nothing that suggests the changes in question have affected teachers.

 

Furthermore, the hysterical jubilation that these changes were initially greeted with by some sections of the expat community has completely fizzled out as people realise that there is nothing in for them. cheers

[youreavinalaff]

Here is a translation for you:

 

Section 71 of Decree No. 1 (and the Act) provided that “a person who is granted permission for working, and who intends to change or add the following particulars, must obtain permission from the Registrar: (1) type of work (2) employer (3) location or (4) working conditions.

Section 72 of Decree No. 1 (and the Act) provided that “no person shall take into employment a foreigner who does not have a work permit with him (i.e. the employer).“

Section 73 of Decree No. 1 (and the Act) provided that “no person may allow a foreigner to work in a manner different from the requirements specified in the work permit.”

Section 37 of Decree No. 2 repealed Sections 70, 71, 72 and 73 of Decree No. 1.

Section 28 of Decree No. 2 provides that a work permit holder may engage in any work that is not specifically prohibited to all foreigners on the “Official List” of work prohibited to foreigners. The Official List outlines, the limited number of activities for which a foreigner cannot obtain work permission for in any case. (The current Official List is the same as was last issued under the Act. However, the Official List is being revised and we detail such in part three of this series once the revision is complete.)

As a consequence, ANY FOREIGNER who has a work permit in Thailand may now, work anywhere, for anyone, and do any type work, that is not excluded by the Official List.

 

Please show me where teachers are exempt from this.

[My Thai Life]

58 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

As a consequence, ANY FOREIGNER who has a work permit in Thailand may now, work anywhere, for anyone, and do any type work, that is not excluded by the Official List.

You said earlier that the relevant section of the law had not been translated. Yet now you have an English "version" of some sort.

 

As I mentioned in my reply to your first post, some law firms made misleading claims about what's in the recent changes, obviously in an attempt to drum up business. I believe this is one of those misleading claims. It's definitely not a translation from the Thai legislation; it's clearly someone's "interpretation".

 

I have been aware of this type of interpretation since the changes were made. My understanding at that time was that it was based on a misunderstanding relating to manual labourers who often need to travel from employer to employer.

 

Thai Immigration is definitely not applying work permit law regarding teachers in the way that your quote suggests, as I know from arrests and deportations in the last month.

 

You said that you can read Thai well enough to read Thai government web-sites, and that you know the relevant piece of legislation. Ok, please send me the link to the specific web-page that contains the information, not a domain-level URL like the one you posted before. Even better, please circle the Thai passage that you think supports your case and send it to me by PM, because we cannot post Thai language on the main forum, as you know.

 

[youreavinalaff]

36 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You said earlier that the relevant section of the law had not been translated. Yet now you have an English "version" of some sort.

 

As I mentioned in my reply to your first post, some law firms made misleading claims about what's in the recent changes, obviously in an attempt to drum up business. I believe this is one of those misleading claims. It's definitely not a translation from the Thai legislation; it's clearly someone's "interpretation".

 

I have been aware of this type of interpretation since the changes were made. My understanding at that time was that it was based on a misunderstanding relating to manual labourers who often need to travel from employer to employer.

 

Thai Immigration is definitely not applying work permit law regarding teachers in the way that your quote suggests, as I know from arrests and deportations in the last month.

 

You said that you can read Thai well enough to read Thai government web-sites, and that you know the relevant piece of legislation. Ok, please send me the link to the specific web-page that contains the information, not a domain-level URL like the one you posted before. Even better, please circle the Thai passage that you think supports your case and send it to me by PM, because we cannot post Thai language on the main forum, as you know.

 

If I said the sky was blue you would say it is red. Correct that there is not an English translation as yet. That is how I saw it in Thai. You obviously can't read Thai so I typed it in English for you.

 

If I did all that you ask you would still not believe. Instead, I think it is you who should be showing something to back up your claim that this new legislation does not cover teachers or "ALL FOREIGNERS". I await your confirmation. A link to a Thai language website is fine with me. Thanks.

[My Thai Life]

4 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

If I said the sky was blue you would say it is red. Correct that there is not an English translation as yet. That is how I saw it in Thai. You obviously can't read Thai so I typed it in English for you.

 

If I did all that you ask you would still not believe. Instead, I think it is you who should be showing something to back up your claim that this new legislation does not cover teachers or "ALL FOREIGNERS". I await your confirmation. A link to a Thai language website is fine with me. Thanks.

Actually I have a professional obligation to understand Thai labour law as it relates to teachers, I have no personal feelings about your claims at all. And yes I can read Thai, though for this type of work I pass it to our bilingual Thai lawyer.

 

You have avoided sending me the URL now three times, even though you say know where the page is and that you can read Thai. 

 

All you have done is recycle misleading interpretations of Thai labour law made by lawyers who are trying to drum up business. I have seen that quote before, it is not your translation.

 

Something you should consider is that the majority of posters on this forum are teachers with work permits. And every single one of them knows that their work permit is tied to their employer. New job, new work permit. This is true for every single country I have worked in or assisted others to obtain work permits in, and there have been many.

 

I think this particular dialogue has run its course.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually I have a professional obligation to understand Thai labour law as it relates to teachers, I have no personal feelings about your claims at all. And yes I can read Thai, though for this type of work I pass it to our bilingual Thai lawyer.

 

You have avoided sending me the URL now three times, even though you say know where the page is and that you can read Thai. 

 

All you have done is recycle misleading interpretations of Thai labour law made by lawyers who are trying to drum up business. I have seen that quote before, it is not your translation.

 

Something you should consider is that the majority of posters on this forum are teachers with work permits. And every single one of them knows that their work permit is tied to their employer. New job, new work permit. This is true for every single country I have worked in or assisted others to obtain work permits in, and there have been many.

 

I think this particular dialogue has run its course.

Indeed. I will believe what I have read from the authorities rather than someone who claims to know but can't back it up. For your knowledge, I too am a teacher with a work permit. That is another reason why I know what the new laws are and how they also represent teachers. I am perfectly aware of the consequences of breaking the labour laws and wouldn't want to. That is how I know I am perfectly entitled to follow the rules as I laid out above. You are not the only one who has "contacts" at MOE and Immigration.

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

Well if you already knew about this level of arrest of illegal "teachers" then you've been keeping it to yourself. Or maybe you're being ironic.
 
The precise number of "teachers" deported isn't referred to in the article that I linked to, but it seems to be in the low thousands - less than 3,000 anyway, which is a huge amount more than has ever been talked about on this forum before. In fact, posters have regularly denied that farang "teachers" are being deported at all.
 
Plus, I have seen regular postings on various Thai forums from people with work permits moonlighting in their "free" time, and advising others how to do so. This has alway been illegal - work permits in any country relate solely to your employer - but it seems it's only in the last year or two that this law has been enforced.
 
Plus plus, the illegality of online teaching has also been questioned, not least of all on this forum. I followed those debates with interest and I have no intention of reopening them or participating in them. The simple fact is that online teaching is not legal for foreigners here, and people have been deported for it - as explained to me by Thai Immigration. For backpackers on "visa" on arrival this may not be important (apart from the fact that they probably can't afford the fine), but for people here on marriage or retirement stays the consequences would be life-changing.
 
The rules have changed substantially in the last 2 or 3 years, and the enforcement of those rules is now taken much more seriously. People who have been here a long time may feel that they have got away with it for so long that they’ll never be caught, but the times they are a-changing.

I've lived and taught here for 14 years. There have regularly been raids on schools, or as we call them Immigration visits, and illegal teachers, if discovered, have been deported. What's happening now is nothing new.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[BurgerGung]

On 11/11/2018 at 8:56 PM, My Thai Life said:

The deportees that I have been made aware of personally (ie not through the press or online) are all farangs, including

 

> teachers with work permits working illegally outside of their place of employment

> people teaching in schools without work permits

> people teaching freelance (no work permit possible of course)

> people teaching online (no work permit possible of course).

 

They're usualy fined too. All the above in the last 2 years.

 

My experience is that sometimes administrators are not aware of the rules, just as some faranags aren't. This is incredible to the rest of us I know.

 

Gaol seems a bit excessive to me, but yes it does take two to tango, even if they're dancing in the dark, unaware of the rules.

Oh, "officer, i didn't know that public urination is forbidden in Singapore". - These administrators speak Thai and have had countless paperwork from OBEC.

 

For example. earlier this year, my school blamed OBEC for banning any and all payments for foreigners' WPs or VISA etc. Cui bono? Mmm, let me answer that question with another question. Who manages to line their pockets?!?

---

 

In the past, the hapless pauper was fined 100 k, the employer only 1/10 or 10 k. Go figure.

[My Thai Life]

53 minutes ago, BurgerGung said:

These administrators speak Thai and have had countless paperwork from OBEC.

Whatever we think about it, many administrators and even school heads don't understand the regulations relating to the hiring of foreigners. 

 

Some areas may be grey to some people, for example where a teacher already has a wp with one institution, and is moonlighting in a second position. The 2nd position is illegal, whether it's at an institution or private. It always has been, but it's now being enforced.

 

As another poster said - it takes 2 to tango. There would be no foreigners working illegally if foreigners didn't work without work permits. And really you'd have to be inexperienced, uninformed, unqualified, unintelligent or desperate to do that.

 

It's the illegal foreigner that gets arrested, fined, deported, and barred re-entry. So complaining that the Thai hiring manager wasn't following the rules isn't going to help: the foreigner is commiting a criminal offence  (maybe more than one), the Thai hiring manager (in a government school) is just bypassing regulations.