Denmark Embassy Has Stopped Doing Pension Letters

[Wanderlust]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

You didn't need the 3 mth O visa because you got your visa in the US, not everyone does that. There's only a few Thai embassies in the US. I flew in visa-free for 30 days then got my 3 mth & 1-yr both at the same time in Thailand using the income affidavit from US embassy. It was much easier for me to do here... no police report & no medical were required.

I am assuming that immigration converted your 30 day entry stamp to a 90 day non-immigrant O visa, and then gave you an extension of stay making that up to 365 days based on retirement, or did you specifically apply for a non immigrant OA visa, as that is a different thing and has different requirements than an extension. Also OAs are not available to those here on marriage grounds, unless they are able to change to retirement (i.e. over 50). I don't know if the OA's issued in Thailand are the same as the ones issued at Thai embassies and consulates, but I would guess they are, and those can actually give you almost two years of stay as long as you time your exits and entries to Thailand correctly.

[Bert Jones]

"Except for the fact that the average salary in Thailand for 2018 is just over 14,000 per month"

 

It makes no difference. Thais want tourists spending their hard earned money here. They don't want poor settlers making a home here. This is a very protectionist society. They make it difficult to buy land, work and now, retire here unless you spend a lot of money. The days of Farangs living like Thai men in Thailand are coming to an end...show us the money or live in another country or go back home.

[luckyluke]

37 minutes ago, smedly said:

Those nationals that think their respective embassies who have so far not made announcements and will continue to issue these letters/affidavits need to plan now, it should be fairly obvious that the facility is coming to an end.

This is of course, as per today, a speculation.

 

No more valuable than the ones who claim differently.

 

Only time will tell.

 

I personally  hope that different possibilities will still be available, in order that as much possible people can benefit it.

 

Of course this is also a speculation,

 

and time will tell. 

[smedly]

36 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Those were replies to the question about whether they would accept an application without proof of income from an embassy. They of course gave that reply since at this time that is the only allowed proof.

yes I fully understand that is the current situation which is why I added - That might change

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

seems to be what hua hin IO are saying already if latest posts can be trusted

 

 

would put a LOT of pressure on IO to come up with a solution if all US/UK/EU/AU expats are affected

 

thats a lot of rich westerners scrambling for funds..

 

or looking elsewhere 

 

 

All replaced by Chinese. Thai Immigration going to force out Westerners and make them sell their condos cheap to Chinese.

[Lovethailandelite]

The Danes took absolutely the right decision to simply stop issuing a letter when nobody will categorically state the fact that it will indeed still be accepted after 31st December. 
In fact, I will go as far to state that Denmark now know it won't be accepted very, very shortly.
That indeed is likely as there simply would be no reason otherwise to stop it immediately.
Get the money in the bank, proving income in the way you knew it is finished.

[zydeco]

1 hour ago, Old Croc said:

Thais are looking for guarantees of future income, not current?

Yes, doesn't make much sense, does it?  Seems the guarantee should be for one year, as the visa extension is good for only one year.  Who knows what immigration is thinking.  

[Lovethailandelite]

8 minutes ago, zydeco said:

All replaced by Chinese. Thai Immigration going to force out Westerners and make them sell their condos cheap to Chinese.

Get a grip of yourself. Nobody is forcing anybody out. The only time you would be forced out is for failing to comply with immigration requirements.
Nobody owes you anything here. Comply or go. That's your choice. 

[JohnnyBD]

14 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The Danes took absolutely the right decision to simply stop issuing a letter when nobody will categorically state the fact that it will indeed still be accepted after 31st December.

This is only November and TI is still accepting the letters thru the end of Dec at least. I think they could have announced that they would stop issuing effective Dec 15, 2018 thereby giving anyone renewing in Dec a chance to get theirs done before Immigration stops accepting.

Edited November 15, 2018 by JohnnyBD

[Thai Chi]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

I am now beginning to wonder seriously whether the Immigration Bureau's ultimate objective is to have the seasoned bank balance method be the strict order of the day for proving finances at annual extension of stay time.

Exactly what I was told yesterday whilst doing a 90 day report (Buriram sub office)

 

And, cut off date for using an Australian Embassy Stat Dec will be the 7th January 2019. Which is the same day the Embassy will stop issuing them.

[Thaidream]

The Danish Embassy announcement is  similar to the other 3 Embassies- except they are cutting their letters immediately and not even giving an interval- a complete uncaring attitude to their citizens. There was not even a hint they negotiated anything or will even ease the transition.

 

While I believe there should be a transition for Embassy Letters of 1 year- at least the UK/US/AU Embassies have provided  a transition to  get the letters and have indicated the letters are valid for 6 months. Hopefully, Thai Imm will stick to the agreement.

 

I don't think Thai Imm will make any announcement- from their perspective if a letter is valid for 6 months hence- no hurry.  They will tell newcomers- go get an Embassy letter and when the applicant indicates they can't get one then they will handle that on a case by case basis for that Immigration office.

 

I can see the situation becoming more regional oriented until there is eventually some direction.  CW, CM, Jomtien, Korat, udon all acting similarly accepting a variety of proof  while the others such as Phuket , Samui and others  developing different  ways to handle .  Some  will say  money in the bank; others will say 65K income stream; others will look at income letters. And there will be differences in each office dependent on what IO one gets.

 

The comment about future income is interesting and I believe relates to Thai Imm wanting people to be able to verify or 'prove' that the income is guaranteed for the future.  That would be very difficult to really prove- unless one is getting a Government pension or a Company Pension or Military Retirement which is good for life.  However, IMO, if this is the issue- why should one have to prove it each year- the extension is good for a year not forever.

 

I believe  much has been lost in translation and a lack of understanding on what  Thai Imm really wants.  IMHO- there needs to be a working group established between Thai Imm and the Embassies to discuss what is the real issue; and how to solve the issue  for the benefits of all stakeholders- the Embassies; Thai Imm and the citizens. (Even on this forum we all can't agree on the meaning of verify; certify; guarantee: prove etc. and we speak English)  I'm still for the best and still asking the Embassy to lengthen the transition  period.

 

 

[Thaidream]

19 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The Danes took absolutely the right decision to simply stop issuing a letter when nobody will categorically state the fact that it will indeed still be accepted after 31st December. 
In fact, I will go as far to state that Denmark now know it won't be accepted very, very shortly.
That indeed is likely as there simply would be no reason otherwise to stop it immediately.
Get the money in the bank, proving income in the way you knew it is finished.

Then apparently the  3 Embassies were lied to when they indicated they had  met with Thai Imm who had stated the letters would be good for 6 months from the date of issuance or even worse- they knew it and then lied to their citizens.

 

If the letters  being issued are not accepted  for 6 months-as was stated, I will be seeking a refund of monies paid, plus compensation for travel time; hotel and food from my Embassy,

[Tanoshi]

42 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

I am assuming that immigration converted your 30 day entry stamp to a 90 day non-immigrant O visa, and then gave you an extension of stay making that up to 365 days based on retirement, or did you specifically apply for a non immigrant OA visa, as that is a different thing and has different requirements than an extension. Also OAs are not available to those here on marriage grounds, unless they are able to change to retirement (i.e. over 50). I don't know if the OA's issued in Thailand are the same as the ones issued at Thai embassies and consulates, but I would guess they are, and those can actually give you almost two years of stay as long as you time your exits and entries to Thailand correctly.

You cannot get an O-A visa in Thailand or adjoining Countries.

Only available from a Country where you are a citizen or have permanent residency.

[AGareth2]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If the letters  being issued are not accepted  for 6 months-as was stated, I will be seeking a refund of monies paid, plus compensation for travel time; hotel and food from my Embassy,

good luck with that

[Lovethailandelite]

1 minute ago, JohnnyBD said:

I think they could have announced that they would stop issuing effective Dec 15, 2018 or something like that since Immigration is still currently accepting the income letters/income affidavits at least thru the end of the year. This would have given the Danes renewing in Dec a chance to get theirs done before Immigration stops accepting the letters/affidavits.

And how would you or anybody know not connected with an Embassy or immigration 'Know' that they may or may not be accepted after the 1st December? (For instance) And there lies the issue. We don't believe they will be accepted after the 31st December BUT nothing has been issued in any guidance notices. The only guidance is that they have previously been valid for 6 months from the time of issue BUT once they are ceased to be issued, that could possibly be seen as being no longer being fit for purpose. Nobody knows. Nobody yet knows if Thai immigration will even be making a statement regarding any of it. IMO, there will be no statement. It may well prove to be the case they simply refuse the extension at the time of applying without a valid income letter/refuse the letter and direct you to use the bank method.

[Wanderlust]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You cannot get an O-A visa in Thailand or adjoining Countries.

Only available from a Country where you are a citizen or have permanent residency.

I thought that as well, and was going to post it, but I checked and found this 

3. Channels to submit application

Applicant may submit their application at the Royal Thai embassy or Royal Thai Consulate-General in their home/residence country or at the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located onGovernment Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210, Tel 0-2141-9889.

 on http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O-A"-(Long-Stay).html

[JohnnyBD]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If the letters  being issued are not accepted  for 6 months-as was stated, I will be seeking a refund of monies paid, plus compensation for travel time; hotel and food from my Embassy,

Hopefully, for everyone's sake, the letters will be accepted by Thai Immigration for 6 mths after date of issuance, but if they are not, it may not be Embassy's fault. I would plan to have the 400k/800k in Thai bank account just in case the letters are not accepted by Immigration... better safe than sorry...

[JimGant]

8 hours ago, elviajero said:

They don't check or verify (same thing) anything, they never have.

 

They just ask for a document confirming the income being claimed. To check/verify they would have to contact the source of the income to ask the source to confirm that the income claimed in the document was correct.

 

How about: "They just check/verify that the applicant has a document confirming the income being claimed." And that this verification includes that the document looks genuine, based on the knowledge of the consular official on what government pension documents look like and/or that the Ford Motor company pension is on a genuine looking Ford Annuity Company letterheaded document. Etc.

 

Absolute certification? Of course not. But 'good enough?' Should be, if TI really has thought this through. Big "if" apparently.

[Lovethailandelite]

 d

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

Then apparently the  3 Embassies were lied to when they indicated they had  met with Thai Imm who had stated the letters would be good for 6 months from the date of issuance or even worse- they knew it and then lied to their citizens.

 

If the letters  being issued are not accepted  for 6 months-as was stated, I will be seeking a refund of monies paid, plus compensation for travel time; hotel and food from my Embassy,

The Embassy's are simply working with previous guidance, nothing more. That guidance can end overnight. Embassy's have no control over immigration policy. You really need to move on and get over it.

[JJ Madcow]

Well i am Danish and i contact Danish Embassy right away when i read about.
British Embassy stop Income letter, As i was sure this was coming.

I got my answer today. As our Embassy was not Allowed so say anything before now.

The Danish Embassy have not being in contact with Thailand / Immigration about this.
Our Foreign Ministry have done that and told our Embassy to stop doing the letter.

 

The Danish word Google translate become:

certificates do not lie within the ambitious attestation of the embassy.

 

I like to tell you that our Embassy can easy check our income.

How much we have pay in tax and so on.
As all the infomation is in a database that the Embassy can check.

 

So what ever the problem is between Danish Foreign Ministry and Thailand (Immigration) i think is something else.

 

Only try to give some infomation about it.

 

Kindly.

Edited November 15, 2018 by JJ Madcow

[Tanoshi]

53 minutes ago, Bert Jones said:

"Except for the fact that the average salary in Thailand for 2018 is just over 14,000 per month"

 

It makes no difference. Thais want tourists spending their hard earned money here. They don't want poor settlers making a home here. This is a very protectionist society. They make it difficult to buy land, work and now, retire here unless you spend a lot of money. The days of Farangs living like Thai men in Thailand are coming to an end...show us the money or live in another country or go back home.

If your financial position is anything like that of the average Thai man, then you clearly shouldn't be here.

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

he Embassy's are simply working with previous guidance, nothing more. That guidance can end overnight. Embassy's have no control over immigration policy. You really need to move on and get over it.

I have no intention of getting over it because the Embassies have not handled this in a professional manner.  Just a few days ago- my Embassy indicated in an email that the letters would be accepted for 6 months from issuance .  their  written documentation states they have negotiated a transition period and  the letters  are part of the ease of transition.  Could Thai Imm change their mind-  I supposes so but I will then expect my Embassy to go back and tell them that was not part of the agreement.

 

If you are telling me there was never any agreement- I would say the citizens have for lack of a better word- been misled and I am being diplomatic in my description.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Thaidream

[JohnnyBD]

25 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You cannot get an O-A visa in Thailand or adjoining Countries. Only available from a Country where you are a citizen or have permanent residency.

This is absolutely not correct... I flew in for 30-days visa-free, signed lease on condo, went to US embassy and got income affidavit then went to Thai Immigration and was granted a 3 mth O visa & 1-yr O-A visa both at the same time (in 2016). I am still living here now and I am living proof you can get an O-A visa in Thailand.

 

Also, I met an American couple who just moved into our condo 1 month ago who's on their 3 mth O visa waiting until the 800k is seasoned before going back to get their 1-yr O-A visa.

Edited November 15, 2018 by JohnnyBD

[glegolo]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

But what you say is just wrong.

There are many statistics about this, just google something like "median net worth retirement" then you will see that the median for retirees in western countries is somewhere in the millions of THB, so most of the retirees can afford 800k on a Thai bank ????

 

This is NOT reality, just take the two (UK+USA) that will crash this median completely with your crap-pensions.... No chance in hell that the median is in the millions, that is what I call "thai-statistics"....

 

glegolo

[Pattaya46]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

// was granted a 3 mth O visa & 1-yr O-A visa both at the same time (this was in 2016). Have renewed twice in 2017 & 2018 and am still here. So, I am living proof you can get an O-A visa in Thailand.

I bet you make confusion between a Visa O-A and an Extension of Stay.

As said before, you get Non-OA only in your home or residence country in 99.99% of cases !

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

With their increasingly deafening silence on this whole matter, I am now beginning to wonder seriously whether the Immigration Bureau's ultimate objective is to have the seasoned bank balance method be the strict order of the day for proving finances at annual extension of stay time.

 

Which they could achieve by simply sitting on their hands and doing nothing while more and more embassies withdrew their income confirmation services - meaning that the monthly income method would, in effect, eventually wither and die on the vine without the need for the Bureau to issue new directives.

 

Yer gotta admit..............that would make life almost perfect for Thai immigration.

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, JimGant said:

How about: "They just check/verify that the applicant has a document confirming the income being claimed." And that this verification includes that the document looks genuine, based on the knowledge of the consular official on what government pension documents look like and/or that the Ford Motor company pension is on a genuine looking Ford Annuity Company letterheaded document. Etc.

Consular officials are as qualified as you and my to ascertain if a document looks real.

That is neither verification or certification.

[Wanderlust]

1 minute ago, JJ Madcow said:

Well i am Danish and i contact Danish Embassy right away when i read about.
British Embassy stop Income letter, As i was sure this was coming.

I got my answer today. As our Embassy was not Allowed so say anything before now.

The Danish Embassy have not being in contact with Thailand / Immigration about this.
Our Foreign Ministry have done that and told our Embassy to stop doing the letter.

 

I like to tell you that our Embassy can easy check our income.

How much we have pay in tax and so on.
As all the infomation is in a database that the Embassy can check.

 

So what ever the problem is between Danish Foreign Ministry and Thailand (Immigration) i think is something else.

 

Only try to give some infomation about it.

 

Kindly.

Thank you for that extra info. The British Embassy have also implied that this was a decision that came from government. That sounds like something I have suspected for a while - that after Thai Immigration told the embassies (or their superiors) that they must verify the incomes being supported by the embassy document back in May, there has been a back and forth ever since trying to either clarify exactly what TI want or to try and convince them to roll back on it as it is not actually possible. Come to October and the embassies/foreign ministries have, one by one, had enough of trying to negotiate, so they start announcing the end of the service, possibly having been assured that income to a Thai bank will be accepted. This, in turn, has led to TI informing local offices that the letters will not be acceptable from next year, with some offices consequently misinterpreting/jumping the gun. We probably will never know all the machinations, but it just about confirms that this was something completely triggered by the Thai authorities, and the only blame to be attached to the embassies (or rather the relevant government department controlling them) is the lack of enough notice to it's citizens. Lets just hope that TI will eventually realise that they are going to be facing a lot more work because of this decision, both in terms of people switching from retirement to marriage extensions, and having to deal with people who turn up without knowing about these changes. I hope that anyone who is unlucky enough to be caught out by this does not lose their rag with the officers they are dealing with, and also that the local officers will make some allowances for people who, through no fault of their own, cannot suddenly switch from income to lump sum.

[JohnnyBD]

22 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

I thought that as well, and was going to post it, but I checked and found this 

3. Channels to submit application

Applicant may submit their application at the Royal Thai embassy or Royal Thai Consulate-General in their home/residence country or at the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located on Government Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210, 

That is correct... you can get a 1-yr O-A visa in Thailand.

I flew in for 30-days visa-free, signed lease on condo, went to US embassy and got income affidavit then went to Thai Immigration and was granted a 3 mth O visa & 1-yr O-A visa both at the same time.

 

Also, met an American couple who just moved into our condo 1 month ago who's on their 3 mth O visa waiting until the 800k is seasoned before going back to get their 1-yr O-A visa.

[Tanoshi]

21 minutes ago, JJ Madcow said:

I like to tell you that our Embassy can easy check our income.

How much we have pay in tax and so on.
As all the infomation is in a database that the Embassy can check.

 

If there is a database that holds all your personal and financial details and can be checked by your Embassy, then sue them for breach of Data protection.