Denmark Embassy Has Stopped Doing Pension Letters

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

I think most people have 400/800k to put them in a bank. Maybe some just didn't want until now because they don't trust Thai banks, but if they are forced to do it they will do it.

So there are probably only a few percent of people who stay in Thailand and don't have 400/800k to put on a Thai bank account, these few percent will probably change to agents or multiple non-o visas now.

I am hoping the Non-O ME Visas continue, since we don't know if the suggested (not confirmed) "showing deposits in a Thai bank" method will be allowed to "prove" (not really) income. 

 

But given the goal seems to be to force us to agents or leave - and as I assume whoever is paying for this "agenda" can always pay to change the minds of the consuls to require income-proofs for 1-year Non-O ME Visas (as has happened in Malaysia) - I am looking for a backup-plan.

 
Do consulates where income-proof is currently-required for Non-O-MEs based on Thai family accept income-affidavits from US-Embassies in the countries where the consulates are located?  IOW - If I went to the US-Embassy in KL, obtained an income-letter there, then presented this to the Thai Consulate in KL to support an application for a 1-year ME Non-O based on my Thai wife - would this be accepted?  Thus far, all reports I have read involved income-letters from our embassies in Thailand.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

wife - would this be accepted?  Thus far, all reports I have read involved income-letters from our embassies in Thailand.

You can do a General Affidavit- in which you write in and state, I, the undersigned receive  xxx amount from  (source) for a total of xx amount per month or per year.  The Consul will verify your signature and administer the Oath.  I did it before in Bangkok US Embassy  for a court in the US and it was readily accepted by the Court.

[steve73]

Use of the phrase "cannot guarantee future income" is interesting.

 

As far as I am aware state & company pensions are usually guaranteed for life. Personal pensions undergoing drawdown are not (at least not for UK or QROPS). But this is in their original currency - if these foreign currencies continue to weaken against the THB, then they could fall well short of the TI's 65k requirements.

Other "income" sources such as investment returns, asset sales, use of savings, or inheritances are obviously not guaranteed in the future.

 

I can understand that TI are now requiring a guarantee of future income, or the amount of saving in a Thai bank to ensure the applicant will not "run-out" during the period of his extension.

 

Perhaps they see the western economies suffering badly in the immediate future, not only with investments crashing, but with foreign currencies also struggling to maintain the current rate against the Thai Baht.

 

If this is likely to happen, it does suggest that keeping 800k here rather than "at home" does make sense... As any Brits who brought it in prior to the Bexit vote will attest.

 

As for those saying that the Thai only want high-spenders, I disagree. Once you have the 800k in the bank you need only spend as much as you want to remain here.. Living like Thai then becomes easily doable.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Consular officials are as qualified as you and my to ascertain if a document looks real.

That is neither verification or certification.

You're right. A consular official couldn't possibly know if a document looks real, particularly a gov't pension statement. In fact, just present your income supporting documents in longhand, misspellings and all. That consular bozo wouldn't know the difference.

 

So, I can see why TI is so worried -- the embassies will be overwhelmed with Photoshop forgeries, reviewed by consular bozos.

 

Best, then, have all income filtered through a Thai bank.

[Sophon]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

<snipped>

The comment about future income is interesting and I believe relates to Thai Imm wanting people to be able to verify or 'prove' that the income is guaranteed for the future.  That would be very difficult to really prove- unless one is getting a Government pension or a Company Pension or Military Retirement which is good for life.  However, IMO, if this is the issue- why should one have to prove it each year- the extension is good for a year not forever.

<snipped>

 

13 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Use of the phrase "cannot guarantee future income" is interesting.

<snipped>

The original (I assume) Danish language version of the announcement doesn't use the frase "future" income. Instead it refers to income for "the coming year", so just income for one year.

 

Sophon

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, Sophon said:

The original (I assume) Danish language version of the announcement doesn't use the frase "future" income. Instead it refers to income for "the coming year", so just income for one year.

Not sure who translated the page in English on their website that I posted but is seems they did not do that good of a job of it.

[steve73]

9 minutes ago, Sophon said:

 

The original (I assume) Danish language version of the announcement doesn't use the frase "future" income. Instead it refers to income for "the coming year", so just income for one year.

 

Sophon

My point remains.... Still no guarantee that todays income will meet 65k bt for the rest of THIS year.

[AGareth2]

36 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I did it before in Bangkok US Embassy  for a court in the US and it was readily accepted by the Court.

but would a Thai court?

Edited November 15, 2018 by AGareth2

[Moonlover]

2 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

With their increasingly deafening silence on this whole matter, I am now beginning to wonder seriously whether the Immigration Bureau's ultimate objective is to have the seasoned bank balance method be the strict order of the day for proving finances at annual extension of stay time.

 

Which they could achieve by simply sitting on their hands and doing nothing while more and more embassies withdrew their income confirmation services - meaning that the monthly income method would, in effect, eventually wither and die on the vine without the need for the Bureau to issue new directives.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Yer gotta admit..............that would make life almost perfect for Thai immigration.

Until a lot of very irate and destitute Thai wives start banging on their doors demanding that they be allowed to have their husbands back!

Edited November 15, 2018 by Moonlover

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

that isn't stipulated, they would have to change the regulations but that could happen of course. From December onwards I will be transferring 65k per month to BKK bank to prepare for this.

 

Interesting to note that the Denmark Embassy announcement seemed to make no specific mention of the monthly deposits into a Thai bank account method, as was mentioned by the U.S. and UK embassies. Of course, the Danish announcement didn't specifically mention the 800K in the Thai bank method either....

 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, AGareth2 said:

S court or Thai court?

US Court.  I did it 2 other times-  when one is overseas and if you need to make a statement- a General Affidavit is usually accepted under US Law because it is a sworn statement under penalty of perjury.  If you lie- you can be prosecuted.  It's the same as testifying in person in a US Court- if you commit perjury- you can be prosecuted.

 

I am not sure if the Embassy people ever sat down with Thai imm and actually explained the legal consequences  of what a sworn Affidavit means.  There is an FBI office in Bangkok. If Thai Imm felt someone was lying and they had ample proof- they could have sent a case for investigation. In fact- lying to a thai Police Officer is also a crime and the person could be prosecuted in Thailand.

 

I really wish the Embassies sought a compromise-  everyone show their pension letter or other to the Embassy Official and then take an Oath to the effect  that what is submitted is true.  If I was Thai Imm, I would accept this with the proviso they can and will ask for the 'proof' themselves and they can and will prosecute fraud.

[Thechook]

With so many embassies doing this I wonder if this was a request by Thailand 

[onera1961]

3 hours ago, zydeco said:

All replaced by Chinese. Thai Immigration going to force out Westerners and make them sell their condos cheap to Chinese.

If they have condos, they can get a short time loan. But it takes time for seasoning. 

[zydeco]

When will we here of similar curtailment of affidavits from Asian and Middle Eastern countries' embassies?  So far, this looks targeted. 

[GeorgeCross]

17 hours ago, thequietman said:

 

Surely an immigration officer can look at a pension letter or a bank book and make the decision themselves to grant an extension.

 

 

yeah, how hard can it be to verify all the various financial documents provided in english.. and french and german and italian ... and russian and greek and arabic .. and viet and burmese .. and and and ..

 

i mean come on immigration, step up !!!

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by GeorgeCross

[soalbundy]

9 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

yeah, how hard can it be to verify all the various financial documents provided in english.. and french and german and italian ... and russian and greek and arabic .. and viet and burmese .. and and and ..

 

i mean come on immigration, step up !!!

 

 

Which is why the embassy letter was the way to go. I suspect that they will want to see 40/65k monthly deposits in a Thai bank if you go the income way in place of the letter.

[perconrad]

I am Danish and live full time in Thailand. Luckily I just renewed my extension in october using the income letter and now have almost a year to save for the next extension. I think I will change to married extension from retired. The Danish government old age pension is not as good as some here think, if You live outside the EU then the pension is just DKK 6,315 or about THB 31,575 before tax. Some have other pensions too and I am one of these, but not all have. It is very difficult to get a permanent residency for a wife from Thailand in Denmark, so it will be hard times ahead for some of my country men. Denmark do not like its citizen to move outside the EU. We do pay full tax to Denmark 37% of all our pensions even if we stay in Thailand, but get nothing in return. The Government also takes our voting rights for Folketinget-The parliament from us.

[joevanwyck]

9 minutes ago, perconrad said:

I am Danish and live full time in Thailand. Luckily I just renewed my extension in october using the income letter and now have almost a year to save for the next extension. I think I will change to married extension from retired. The Danish government old age pension is not as good as some here think, if You live outside the EU then the pension is just DKK 6,315 or about THB 31,575 before tax. Some have other pensions too and I am one of these, but not all have. It is very difficult to get a permanent residency for a wife from Thailand in Denmark, so it will be hard times ahead for some of my country men. Denmark do not like its citizen to move outside the EU. We do pay full tax to Denmark 37% of all our pensions even if we stay in Thailand, but get nothing in return. The Government also takes our voting rights for Folketinget-The parliament from us.

I hope everything works out for you. Good thing you just did your extension. 

[onera1961]

13 minutes ago, perconrad said:

The Danish government old age pension is not as good as some here think, if You live outside the EU then the pension is just DKK 6,315 or about THB 31,575 before tax.

Just curious, how much the old age pension if one lives within EU? And do you still have to pay 37% tax on DKK 6315?

In the US also, there is no tax benefits for staying outside the US but one's social security (old age pension) is lumped with their other incomes to determine their gross income. The gross income is progressively taxed. But in no case (even for a million dollar gross income), more than 80% of your social security will be taxed. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by onera1961

[perconrad]

17 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Just curious, how much the old age pension if one lives within EU? And do you still have to pay 37% tax on DKK 6315?

The pension is DKK 13,225 if one lives in EU and if one do not have other incomes then you get about DKK 1,500 more. If one have other income then the pension will gradiently be reduced, but not under DKK 6,315. Hospitals and doctors are for free and many other perks for pensioners especially if one do not have much income. The first about DKK 3,800 per month are not taxed. 1 DKK gives you about 5 THB

Edited November 15, 2018 by perconrad

[totally thaied up]

7 hours ago, a977 said:

This is not true the Australian Embassy can enter a persons tax file number or their Centrelink number and bingo up comes that persons file including the brand of toilet tissue they use

And if the Embassy did this, I would be very, very angry with them as this is a privacy breach. My privacy is just that- MY privacy but so many people here are so ready to sell it down the river, I cannot believe. 

[mfd101]

6 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

And if the Embassy did this, I would be very, very angry with them as this is a privacy breach. My privacy is just that- MY privacy but so many people here are so ready to sell it down the river, I cannot believe. 

Don't worry. What was written about the OzEmb having access to Centerlink or ATO details is rubbish. Just the usual paranoid drivel from some people on this site.

[Lovethailandelite]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Didn't you claim to know that montly-deposits to a Thai account were going to be accepted a short-time back? 

Have your inside-sources changed their tune - or are they still claiming this will be accepted?

 

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I have no intention of getting over it because the Embassies have not handled this in a professional manner.  Just a few days ago- my Embassy indicated in an email that the letters would be accepted for 6 months from issuance .  their  written documentation states they have negotiated a transition period and  the letters  are part of the ease of transition.  Could Thai Imm change their mind-  I supposes so but I will then expect my Embassy to go back and tell them that was not part of the agreement.

 

If you are telling me there was never any agreement- I would say the citizens have for lack of a better word- been misled and I am being diplomatic in my description.

Nobody has ever said there was not an agreement of some type at some stage. I firmly believe though, the Embassy's are under the impression the 6 month valid letter will always be exactly that. Valid for 6 months. They may not be once the door closes on obtaining anymore letters. What is irrefutable is that nobody can or will guarantee, just how long that agreement will be upheld. You going back to your embassy and complaining, may make you feel better but will it change anything? Absolutely not.
 

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Didn't you claim to know that montly-deposits to a Thai account were going to be accepted a short-time back? 

Have your inside-sources changed their tune - or are they still claiming this will be accepted?

You really need to take time out and clear your head of all the hatred and disdain you have of Immigration, visa agents, Thailand Elite, Thai airports and just anybody that chooses a way of securing there stay here outside of your remit. Only then would you understand the concept of 'Money in the bank'. Be that a lump sum (400/800k) or the regular minimum income. 40/65k.
I suggest you may want to apply that logic too regarding your current favourite 'Loop holes' Savannakhet and Hanoi.
 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Lovethailandelite

[fforest1]

51 minutes ago, perconrad said:

I am Danish and live full time in Thailand. Luckily I just renewed my extension in october using the income letter and now have almost a year to save for the next extension. I think I will change to married extension from retired. The Danish government old age pension is not as good as some here think, if You live outside the EU then the pension is just DKK 6,315 or about THB 31,575 before tax. Some have other pensions too and I am one of these, but not all have. It is very difficult to get a permanent residency for a wife from Thailand in Denmark, so it will be hard times ahead for some of my country men. Denmark do not like its citizen to move outside the EU. We do pay full tax to Denmark 37% of all our pensions even if we stay in Thailand, but get nothing in return. The Government also takes our voting rights for Folketinget-The parliament from us.

Denmark is the most highly taxed country in the world....I feel bad for the danish..Denmark taxes the hell out of just about every thing there including about the highest VAT in Europe....Even with a reduced pension I think your better off in Thailand...

[Geck0]

7 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

if all US/UK/EU/AU expats

Did you mean US/EU/AU expats????

[totally thaied up]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

Until a lot of very irate and destitute Thai wives start banging on their doors demanding that they be allowed to have their husbands back!

It is interesting reading the notice. If Thai Immigration is worried about future income for the year, it seems they are now thinking outside the box. As for the Thais worrying about destitute wives, I am sure they would not give a damn. My wife showed me some Thai forums from years ago and even then, some of the wives are terrified that the 400K is going to change. It seems, many of the husbands don't have the money or just refuse to bring it in. For some of these upcountry folk, 400K is a fortune. 

 

4 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Don't worry. What was written about the OzEmb having access to Centerlink or ATO details is rubbish. Just the usual paranoid drivel from some people on this site.

Yes, I understand that. In 2008 I had a data breach and had a large amount of money taken from an account in Australia. Until you have had your data breached and had a full on blew with ASIC trying to get your money back (it was a share transaction), you do not understand how important things are like your tax file number and even drivers license. Some seem easy with giving these rights away but I am not. 

 

I mean, this seems all funny to me with the Visas and Thais change of heart yesterday. Relaxing the Visas for tourists but beefing up long stay retirement and marriage extensions is crazy. I was in Maya yesterday in Chiang Mai and it was full of Chinese tours but I saw a lot of farangs and could see high season was in some ways here. Many Chinese were running around with yellow armbands on so they would not get lost. I cannot say they are zero-sum tours but apart from just the Ninmin area, it seemed pretty quiet in other areas of Chiang Mai. We had noodles at a famous eatery in town and I helped some farangs order the meals they wanted but it was all mainly Thais doing the buying and I saw a lot of expats that I know personally eating as well. It does not seem as busy as most years to date and it seems not to have the mojo of the past. Why tighten it up for those of us that spend money here daily. I don't know but it all seems cock about face to me. Try to get more Chinese here. It all just does not make sense to me. Are the arrival figures right? 

 

I feel sorry for the Danish people. This was a short and sharp change around and it makes me seem now for certain, this was Thai originated from the very start. My agent told me this week Embassy letters where going to be worth very little in the future and cash was going to be it.  

[Nielsk]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

I think most people have 400/800k to put them in a bank. Maybe some just didn't want until now because they don't trust Thai banks, but if they are forced to do it they will do it.

So there are probably only a few percent of people who stay in Thailand and don't have 400/800k to put on a Thai bank account, these few percent will probably change to agents or multiple non-o visas now.

Wrong !  Just Your guess !

[Geck0]

7 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

if all US/UK/EU/AU expats

Did you mean US/EU/AU expats????

[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

Just curious, how much the old age pension if one lives within EU? And do you still have to pay 37% tax on DKK 6315?

In the US also, there is no tax benefits for staying outside the US but one's social security (old age pension) is lumped with their other incomes to determine their gross income. The gross income is progressively taxed. But in no case (even for a million dollar gross income), more than 80% of your social security will be taxed. 

And in fairness, UK higher rate tax payers are stopped tax of 40% on UK derived income no matter where you happen to be living. We are not talking the likes of Bob Geldolf to be a 40% tax payer either. Just someone who earns a reasonable income. Of course, none of that matters other than a response to people assuming they are hard done by paying income tax of 37%.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Lovethailandelite

[Pattaya46]

3 minutes ago, Nielsk said:

Wrong !  Just Your guess !

Please prove it...

This has been discussed several times on several thread in last 4 weeks, but I still saw nowhere any figures about that. I do think Jackdd is right: a very small percent of expats not able to get these 400/800k