Frustration at Immigration Office regarding income affidavit policy

[tgarrett100]

 

I am an old guy (79 yrs) in Thailand with a retirement visa now extended for 11 years. With my articulate wife (U.S. Citizen, Thai National, married in U.S.) visited Chang Wattana Immigration Office (IO) on Wednesday 15 November for the annual extension.  Visit to U.S. Embassy for routine income affidavit then to IO for the annual extension process.

Wife joined me for paperwork processing so she could hopefully get some answers regarding the income verification process for next year. The immigration officers are reluctant to speak much in English but seemed happy to vent (in volumes) in Thai.  First level Officer was very sympathetic with our income validation plight but had no answers. Immigration offices have apparently not been informed about any 2019 requirements.

Our only income is from a monthly annuity payment plus a small U.S. Social Security payment and there is no way we could accumulate or afford to “park” 800,000 baht. We’re well within the monthly income requirement which of course has been the basis for my visa extension here in our only home (cut all ties in U.S. when we came to Thailand).

First level official, as she finished processing the paperwork, told us that we should direct our questions to the higher ranking officer to whom we were directed for the visa extension document review.  Did that – at length – with my very polite wife becoming visibly frustrated with the lack of substantial information provided.

Bottom line: The Review Officer told us that the Immigration Office operations staff was also frustrated because no one had been provided ANY information beyond the summary statement that the income affidavit would not be accepted after 1 January 2019.  She told us that it was her opinion and the opinion of her associates that it was a U.S. (and by implication, other countries) Embassy problem.  She said she thought it was the responsibility of the U.S. to take care of their citizens living here, that there was certainly no problem as far as she knew with the Thai Immigration Office accepting the Embassy affidavit, and that we should direct our questions to the Embassy.  She also told us to check “the website” after January for hopefully clarifying information.  Asked “which website?” Response: “not sure; just check around”.

I initially presumed that the change regarding acceptance of income affidavit was initiated by Thailand because someone in authority at the Thai Immigration Bureau noted that a “mere” sworn signature on an income declaration document was not actually proof of income. Thai morning news is replete with notice of scams based upon false assurances – call centers, etc. – so guess I can understand the perception. But then the lack of information at the Thai Immigration Office and their guidance to “complain to your embassy” has me wondering.

Does anyone have information regarding the rationale for the change in policy?

Is anyone organizing a unified protest, petition to the Ambassador, or otherwise generating a joint complaint that will be heard by the Embassy?

Since expatriates from all countries seem to be present on ThaiVisa forums, perhaps this is an appropriate place to aggregate signatures/comments for a petition to Ambassadors?

Edited November 17, 2018 by tgarrett100
correct omission in punctuation

[sotsira]

This seems to be a catch 22 scenario where by the Thai Immigration have initiated with the request to the relevant embassies to verify the source of income.

Where up until know the protocol was that each embassy had their own methods to provide income letters.

 

So in summary, Thai immigration haven't changed their policy regarding income letters, it's just that the additional proof of source requirement laid out to the embassies has caused the

current problem by them rejecting to issue them. 

[evadgib]

This is Thai Immigrations problem & is for them to sort out instead of blaiming the big bad wolf that could not comply with their outrageous demands.

[steve187]

change to married yearly extension, only 400,000baht required, you have a year to prepare

[samsensam]

 

i always visit CW immigration alone and have always found the IOs to be helpful, patient and prepared to speak and explain in english. sure some have better english than others but it could be that because you have a thai with you it makes the IOs reluctant to speak english with you? i also prefer to connect directly with IOs not rely on translation/interpretation by a third party - even a wife or gf. this approach has served me well over the years in thailand and other countries.

[samsensam]

8 minutes ago, steve187 said:

change to married yearly extension, only 400,000baht required, you have a year to prepare

 

agree.

[tropo]

2 hours ago, tgarrett100 said:

The Review Officer told us that the Immigration Office operations staff was also frustrated because no one had been provided ANY information beyond the summary statement that the income affidavit would not be accepted after 1 January 2019.

 

2 hours ago, tgarrett100 said:

She told us that it was her opinion and the opinion of her associates that it was a U.S. (and by implication, other countries) Embassy problem.

Those 2 statements are contradictory. Staff at your Immigration office state they won't accept income affidavits after January 1, but proceed to tell you that it's an Embassy problem.

 

What of all the other embassies that could still be doing income letters after January 1? What of the 6 months validity of income letters? If they (other embassies) aren't going to issue them, now would be a good time to let their citizens know. The Australian Embassy has already said it will issue income letters (income stat decs) until January 7.

[stevenl]

Immigration requirements have not changed, your questions should be addressed elsewhere.

[phutoie2]

26 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Immigration requirements have not changed, your questions should be addressed elsewhere.

another smart job, the requirements have certainly changed if your not in possession of an embassy letter.  Let me guess where he should be asking for advice- 7/11.

[ubonjoe]

A offtopic inflammatory post and the resultant replies have been removed.

[ubonjoe]

40 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Immigration requirements have not changed, your questions should be addressed elsewhere.

That is the problem. They do need to clarify what will be required since they are asking for more than what many embassies are allowed to do.

[Peterw42]

10 hours ago, tgarrett100 said:

the summary statement that the income affidavit would not be accepted after 1 January 2019. 

OP, are you sure about this or is it lost in translation/your opinion ?

If true that a very serious turn of events for many. Lots of people are under the impression that they can get an income letter until the end of the year and use it for up to 6 months.

Up until this statement there have been no indications that TI will stop accepting letters after 1 Jan.

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, are you sure about this or is it lost in translation/your opinion ?

If true that a very serious turn of events for many. Lots of people are under the impression that they can get an income letter until the end of the year and use it for up to 6 months. 

Up until this statement there have been no indications that TI will stop accepting letters after 1 Jan. 

This was written in another topic, so could very well be:

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Jomtien immigration chief has told people directly there will be no income applications accepted next year AT ALL (obviously included combos) from any nationality and that includes people with letters they thought were good for six months.

 

[Spidey]

47 minutes ago, phutoie2 said:

another smart job, the requirements have certainly changed if your not in possession of an embassy letter.  Let me guess where he should be asking for advice- 7/11.

An income letter has always been required and still is, nothing has changed. It's possible something was lost in translation between IO and the OP. IO probably assumed that as letters will no longer be issued by embassy after January 1st, then the OP wouldn't be in possession of a letter the next time his extension was due, therefore no extension by income method. Probably didn't take into account that the OP might be in possession of his letter before January 1st, which is then valid for 6 months.

 

Nothing new here, ask your embassy to reinstate issuing of income letters. IO will be happy with that.

[Moonlover]

Tgarrett, I understand your concerns, but please I urge you not get all stressed about this.

 

Thai Immigration is just like any other bureaucracy, throughout the world (and I've dealt with a lot of them!) that operates a 'top down' information system. It should be no surprise to anyone that those officers working at the 'coal face' are not yet aware of the ramifications of the changes that are taking place right now.

 

As of last night, there is one reasonably reliable report of a successful extension using income without having an income letter (in Mukdahan) and no reports of anyone being denied an extension.

 

You're one of the lucky ones. You have whole year yet before your next extension is due. I am quite sure that by then everything will have been sorted out.

 

 

 

Relax and enjoy your retirement.

 

ML

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Moonlover

[ubonjoe]

Some baiting, bickering and off topic posts have been removed.

[Moonlover]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I have read the whole thread, and had read it before I posted. How is it in any way "out of context"?

 

9 hours ago, steve187 said:

change to married yearly extension, only 400,000baht required, you have a year to prepare

I was referring, specifically to this comment, by Steve, above, not to the O/Ps post, which it why it was attached to that post.

 

This in my opinion is disinformation and the poster has yet to debunk  my assertion.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Moonlover

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, steve187 said:

change to married yearly extension, only 400,000baht required, you have a year to prepare

He has a lot of time to work things out. Nobody knows yet what the requirements will be a year from now.

It is in a holding pattern at this time since the Immigration Bureau has not announced anything. A person can ask one officer and another one or one at a different office and you will get a different answer that means nothing until the bureau says something.

[Tanoshi]

8 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I was referring, specifically to this comment, by Steve, above, not to the O/Ps post, which it why it was attached to that post.

 

This in my opinion is disinformation and the poster has yet to debunk  my assertion.

Why do you consider Steve187's post misinformation?

 

The OP is married to a Thai national, just renewed his retirement extension, using the income method.

Next year provided he can stick 400K in a Thai bank for 2 months before his next extension renewal date, he can apply for an extension based on marriage. He at least has 10 months to sort out his financials.

 

Where is the disinformation.

 

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Nobody knows yet what the requirements will be a year from now.

It is in a holding pattern at this time since the Immigration Bureau has not announced anything. A person can ask one officer and another one or one at a different office and you will get a different answer that means nothing until the bureau says something.

Can you repeat this statement, in big bold letters, across all the income letter threads.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Can you repeat this statement, in big bold letters, across all the income letter threads.

I have written about the same thing many times but many people do not bother reading all the posts before posting a new reply.

[Moonlover]

43 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Why do you consider Steve187's post misinformation?

 

The OP is married to a Thai national, just renewed his retirement extension, using the income method.

Next year provided he can stick 400K in a Thai bank for 2 months before his next extension renewal date, he can apply for an extension based on marriage. He at least has 10 months to sort out his financials.

 

Where is the disinformation.

 

Firstly the O/P has indicated that he not in a position to raise a capital sum and secondly Steve's post is suggesting it is his only option.

 

There is no proof that the income method is coming to an end. 

[Spidey]

Just now, Moonlover said:

Firstly the O/P has indicated that he not in a position to raise a capital sum and secondly Steve's post is suggesting it is his only option.

 

There is no proof that the income method is coming to an end. 

As things stand after 1st January + 6 months that the letters, previously obtained, are valid, the income method will no longer be available to citizens of the embassies that are discontinuing the service. There is no proof that the option won't be available to the citizens of those embassies that continue to provide the letters.

 

There is also no proof that the option will continue to be available to the citizens of those countries whose embassies refuse to continue the service.

[steve73]

I'm seeing a number of posts across many threads suggesting some people have been told by Thai Immigration, that any income letters will NOT be accepted after 1st Jan 2019...

 

Will US/UK/Oz embassies be refunding the fees if their letter does not actually get accepted?  The Danish Emb have said they will refund fees, since they have stopped issuing letters immediately.

 

And what about all other nationalities..  Their embassies are continuing to issue letters in the belief that they will be accepted, but perhaps some TIO's will refuse even these.

 

It's ESSENTIAL that Thai Immigration clearly state what its requirements will be, to allow all nationalities to be able to plan their future applications, whether now (for Danish), from Jan 1st for others, (or hopefully 6 months if the letters validity will be accepted), or even further ahead if other Embassies decide to change their procedures.

[Tanoshi]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Firstly the O/P has indicated that he not in a position to raise a capital sum and secondly Steve's post is suggesting it is his only option.

The OP stated he couldn't park 800K in a Thai bank.

He has 10 months to park 400K in a Thai bank, which is more doable than 800K and an option.

 

6 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

There is no proof that the income method is coming to an end. 

It certainly is as far as Embassy letters are concerned.

There is no statement as yet from Immigration for an acceptable alternative.

 

Steve is merely giving the OP notice and time to organise his financials for a method still guaranteed to be acceptable next year, namely funds held in a Thai. A luxury that many expats will not have the option or time to do.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, steve73 said:

I'm seeing a number of posts across many threads suggesting some people have been told by Thai Immigration, that any income letters will NOT be accepted after 1st Jan 2019...

The letters are valid for 6 months after date of issue. I have seen a number of posts that indicate that IOs will continue to accept them during this period. It's also written into TI regs, which has also been posted a number of times.

 

A lot of dazed and confused bunnies posting in these threads.

[janclaes47]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The letters are valid for 6 months after date of issue. I have seen a number of posts that indicate that IOs will continue to accept them during this period. It's also written into TI regs, which has also been posted a number of times.

And all your claims will be valid until the day the Thai immigration regs are changed, which actually can happen on 31 December.

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, steve73 said:

I'm seeing a number of posts across many threads suggesting some people have been told by Thai Immigration, that any income letters will NOT be accepted after 1st Jan 2019...

Stop right there, because if some Immigration offices do refuse income letter come January, getting a refund from your Embassy would be the least of their problems.

 

In that situation the Embassies should be informed.

What happened to the 'transition' period, or funds deposit in a Thai bank, we were led to believe had been discussed, or had been interpreted as being the way forward.

[Spidey]

Just now, janclaes47 said:

And all your claims will be valid until the day the Thai immigration regs are changed, which actually can happen on 31 December.

Have you had any indication that this is likely to happen? I certainly haven't.

 

Random scaremongering isn't helpful to those who are genuinely affected by this situation.

[Pattaya46]

20 minutes ago, steve73 said:

I'm seeing a number of posts across many threads suggesting some people have been told by Thai Immigration, that any income letters will NOT be accepted after 1st Jan 2019...

They all have the same unique source (here)

and it's nothing more than a rumour very probably false... IMHO.