Frustration at Immigration Office regarding income affidavit policy

[steve73]

13 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

They all have the same unique source (here)

and it's nothing more than a rumour very probably false... IMHO.

 

28 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The letters are valid for 6 months after date of issue. I have seen a number of posts that indicate that IOs will continue to accept them during this period. It's also written into TI regs, which has also been posted a number of times.

 

A lot of dazed and confused bunnies posting in these threads.

I sincerely hope you guys are right, or there'll be a lot of very disappointed people around come next year... even more than there are now. 

 

It's fine people hoping for the best, but they really need to be planning for the worst..

 

My point about needing some clarity from TI remains..

Edited November 18, 2018 by steve73

[Spidey]

Just now, steve73 said:

 

I sincerely hope you guys are right, or there'll be a lot of very disappointed people around come next year... even more than there are now. 

 

My point about needing some clarity from TI remains..

You already have clarity. TI regs state that the letters will be valid for 6 months from date of issue. It's in black and white on their website.

[joeyg]

I remember the first time I got my Embassy letter in Bangkok 4 years ago.  I had all my bank/brokerage statements etc.  the guy at the embassy said what are you giving me this for.  I said don't you have to see my financial status.  He said no we don't want this your just swear you meet the requirements.

 

I was quite surprised at the time.  However anyone can "doctor up" documents I suppose.  What would they have to to do contact my bank I guess?

[janclaes47]

30 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Have you had any indication that this is likely to happen? I certainly haven't.

You could start with reading the OP

 

The Review Officer told us that the Immigration Office operations staff was also frustrated because no one had been provided ANY information beyond the summary statement that the income affidavit would not be accepted after 1 January 2019.

[Moonlover]

50 minutes ago, Spidey said:

There is no proof that the option won't be available to the citizens of those embassies that continue to provide the letters.

 

There is also no proof that the option will continue to be available to the citizens of those countries whose embassies refuse to continue the service.

Which is exactly why UJ, myself and quite a few others advocate quit speculating and 'wait and see'.

 

But I personally still go for 'cautious optimism'. 

[ebean001]

Just eliminate the income requirement is the best solution. Next, hire me to create the letter. I will actually require bank statements.

The USA was making $50 doing nothing. That does not sound like the USA would stop this on their own. $50 and I have to make out the form, show a valid passport, and say YES. Hummm. I can do that and even more

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

You could start with reading the OP

 

The Review Officer told us that the Immigration Office operations staff was also frustrated because no one had been provided ANY information beyond the summary statement that the income affidavit would not be accepted after 1 January 2019.

As I've already posted, sounds like something was lost in translation. IO explaining what will happen to those who can't get an embassy letter after 1st January. Not taking into account those who already have their letters.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Which is exactly why UJ, myself and quite a few others advocate quit speculating and 'wait and see'.

 

But I personally still go for 'cautious optimism'. 

Maybe it's because I'm a cautious "glass half empty" person, but I'm already making plans to transfer the 800k baht to a Thai bank account next year. 

 

I'm sincerely hoping that you're right and I'm wrong and I don't need to transfer the money. However, having to leave Thailand would be devastating for me. Better safe than sorry.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

no reports of anyone being denied an extension.

One in Phuket, claiming only "govt pension income" will be accepted - even with the letter - but that office is famous for being difficult.

 

57 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Will US/UK/Oz embassies be refunding the fees if their letter does not actually get accepted? 

Don't hold your breath.

 

11 hours ago, steve187 said:

change to married yearly extension, only 400,000baht required, you have a year to prepare

That also reduces the needed income to 40K/mo, assuming an income-based method exists next year in some form.  We have only one report from Mukdahan of someone using a govt-pension income with a Thai-bank letter showing the deposits in lieu of an income letter.  I consider this the "most likely acceptable scenario," with the OP's "annuity" income being less-likely to be accepted.

 

I sincerely hope non-govt incomes are acceptable, since my income is not from a govt-pension - but a "best bet" scenario would be using govt-income sources to meet the 40K (assuming it reaches that threshold), vs a combination of govt and private sources to meet 65K. 

 

The OP won't be applying again for 11 mo or so, and we should know a lot more at that time.

 

11 hours ago, samsensam said:

i always visit CW immigration alone and have always found the IOs to be helpful, patient and prepared to speak and explain in english. sure some have better english than others but it could be that because you have a thai with you it makes the IOs reluctant to speak english with you? i also prefer to connect directly with IOs not rely on translation/interpretation by a third party - even a wife or gf. this approach has served me well over the years in thailand and other countries.

In my experience (going back years to my TR extensions), if you are present with your Thai wife, IOs will speak to her - often exclusively - even requiring her to translate any questions to you.
 

[JLCrab]

29 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

In my experience (going back years to my TR extensions), if you are present with your Thai wife, IOs will speak to her - often exclusively - even requiring her to translate any questions to you.

Such is an advantage (and there are many) of having a Thai wife/TGF who doesn't speak English.

[hansnl]

12 hours ago, evadgib said:

This is Thai Immigrations problem & is for them to sort out instead of blaiming the big bad wolf that could not comply with their outrageous demands.

In that you are wrong.

Immigration was aware that the income declaration issued by many embassies were not really based on, shall we say, reality?

Immigration wanted some checking by the embassies.

Most embassies can't do that or don't want to do that.

Some embassies saw this coming and organised a checking modus.

And issue the statements.

Now Immigration might need to accept other proof of monthly income, because the 800.000 baht in the bank thing is for most retired rather Impossible.

If because of all this any expats have to leave Thailand, it is of course a loss of foreign cash coming into the country.

Say 50,000 baht a month on average for every expat?

 

[steve187]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

Firstly the O/P has indicated that he not in a position to raise a capital sum and secondly Steve's post is suggesting it is his only option.

 

There is no proof that the income method is coming to an end. 

i merely stated one possible solution, getting 400,000 baht in a lump is easier than double that amount, he has in excess of 65,000 baht per month coming in., maybe the op had not thought of changing to a married extension, as he has been on the 'retirement' for several years, and may be blinkered

another solution would be a multi entry non imm visa, another would be wait and see.

 

the idea of this forum in my opinion is to help people , by clearly posting the actual rules, giving honest accurate, or suggesting something that they them-self have not thought of, but some on here think its to criticize and find fault.

 

 

[Saltire]

12 hours ago, samsensam said:

 

i always visit CW immigration alone and have always found the IOs to be helpful, patient and prepared to speak and explain in english. sure some have better english than others but it could be that because you have a thai with you it makes the IOs reluctant to speak english with you? i also prefer to connect directly with IOs not rely on translation/interpretation by a third party - even a wife or gf. this approach has served me well over the years in thailand and other countries.

Agree 100% with this. I have never had to goto CW immigration, thankfully reporting at one of the smaller offices. However I realised this on my first ever IO visit that taking my GF up to the window was a no-no. Her English then was pretty basic and while the IO had great English, spoke at length to my GF in Thai and then paused for her to 'translate' which she was unable to do. I was completely in the dark, politely asked her to go wait and asked the IO to repeat directly to me. Lesson learned. 

[jimn]

OP whilst I sympathise with your situation, you are one of the lucky ones  who have a year to see how it all pans out. There is absolutely no point in asking individual officers because they just dont know and you are stressing yourself out because of it. I know it is worrying for you and as a senior expat I can understand that. My advice is to relax and wait for the inevitable new guidence from Thai Immigration maybe clarification or even a new police order. I am sure it will not be as onerous as some posters are proposing. Relax and enjoy the next year its not worth the stress and the worry you are putting yourself through.

Edited November 18, 2018 by jimn

[evadgib]

12 minutes ago, hansnl said:

In that you are wrong.

Immigration was aware that the income declaration issued by many embassies were not really based on, shall we say, reality?

Immigration wanted some checking by the embassies.

Most embassies can't do that or don't want to do that.

Some embassies saw this coming and organised a checking modus.

And issue the statements.

Now Immigration might need to accept other proof of monthly income, because the 800.000 baht in the bank thing is for most retired rather Impossible.

If because of all this any expats have to leave Thailand, it is of course a loss of foreign cash coming into the country.

Say 50,000 baht a month on average for every expat?

 

Interesting that you claim I was wrong & then explain why I wasn't ????

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, jimn said:

OP whilst I sympathise with your situation, you are one of the lucky ones  who have a year to see how it all pans out. There is absolutely no point in asking individual officers because they just dont know and you are stressing yourself out because of it. I know it is worrying for you and as a senior expat I can understand that. My advice is to relax and wait for the inevitable new guidence from Thai Immigration maybe clarification or even a new police order. I am sure it will not be as onerous as some posters are proposing. Relax and enjoy the next year its not worth the stress and the worry you are putting yourself through.

Those of us with renewals coming up in Jan or Feb next year have every reason to get stressed as to whether or not our income letters will be accepted (even with back-up documentary evidence) by our particular Immigration office!

[OJAS]

Interesting report from the OP about his recent experiences at CW. If I recall correctly, the British Embassy are basing their claims to have reached agreement regarding monthly deposits into Thai bank accounts in place of their letters on discussions which they have supposedly had with that particular office! So, assuming, of course, that this so-called "agreement" is not some pure figment of the Embassy's imagination, it certainly looks as though the particular officers with whom his wife spoke were not a party to it!!

Edited November 18, 2018 by OJAS

[racyrick]

Some people are not able to put the 400,000 or 800,000 baht in the bank even with time.

That is the point why the monthly income is so needed for many people.

Remember, even if somebody has a monthly income that would equal the above, they are probably needing a lot of that for their living expenses, if not all of it.

Have compassion and empathy for those that are not cheaters and not as fortunate as others to have money to put in the bank.

Be grateful you are not in that position!

[Just Weird]

15 hours ago, tgarrett100 said:

Is anyone organizing a unified protest, petition to the Ambassador, or otherwise generating a joint complaint that will be heard by the Embassy?

Since expatriates from all countries seem to be present on ThaiVisa forums, perhaps this is an appropriate place to aggregate signatures/comments for a petition to Ambassadors?

Edited 14 hours ago by tgarrett100

Good grief, Thaivisa is the place that relentlessly (and usually unjustifiably) slags off the Embassies at every opportunity!  Why should they now take kindly to the sad pleas from those same people at that very same source? 

 

If I worked for an Embassy I would tell any Thaivisa members submitting group complaints about something that is not the Embassies fault (this has been pointed out many times) to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

[Just Weird]

13 hours ago, steve187 said:

change to married yearly extension, only 400,000baht required, you have a year to prepare

Huh?  Can anyone do that?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, racyrick said:

Some people are not able to put the 400,000 or 800,000 baht in the bank even with time.

That is the point why the monthly income is so needed for many people.

Remember, even if somebody has a monthly income that would equal the above, they are probably needing a lot of that for their living expenses, if not all of it.

Have compassion and empathy for those that are not cheaters and not as fortunate as others to have money to put in the bank.

Be grateful you are not in that position!

Exactly.  My income is slightly more than 65,000 bht p.m., and I spend all of it here in Thailand.

 

Unlike some who have 800,000 bht fixed in a Thai bank account - but have far less income, and so spend far less.

 

We shouldn't be arguing 'against' each other.  Both are perfectly valid routes (at the moment....).

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

Huh?  Can anyone do that?

Yes they can if married to a Thai and have 400k baht in the bank for 2 months. Just change from a retirement extension to one based upon marriage.

[Just Weird]

12 hours ago, tropo said:

15 hours ago, tgarrett100 said:

The Review Officer told us that the Immigration Office operations staff was also frustrated because no one had been provided ANY information beyond the summary statement that the income affidavit would not be accepted after 1 January 2019.

 

15 hours ago, tgarrett100 said:

She told us that it was her opinion and the opinion of her associates that it was a U.S. (and by implication, other countries) Embassy problem.

 

12 hours ago, tropo said:

Those 2 statements are contradictory. Staff at your Immigration office state they won't accept income affidavits after January 1, but proceed to tell you that it's an Embassy problem.

They are not contradictory!  The first statement is factual, the second, as she clearly pointed out, was hers and others' opinions, not confirmed official Immigration comment. 

[ReMarKable]

I have never gotten an income affidavit before, but since the American embassy in Bangkok will not provide one after December, is it possible to get one from a neighboring country with a US embassy and use it for Thai immigration?

[Number 6]

No shock, she totally doesn't have a clue. The embassies cannot meet immigration's verification requirement and got tired of lying about it. 

 

All Thai immigration need do is provide a procedure to submit documents. But they are too lazy and not competent to check such documents, especially in days.

 

Further, this is not an issue for embassies. Embassies purpose is to represent the interest of respective nations. They are not a community centers for old coots to gather and purposely fudge their financial information to later be submitted to the government of a foreign country.

 

The US letter was always a total joke. There's zero verification, lick and a promise done on of all things - a notarized statement.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, ReMarKable said:

I have never gotten an income affidavit before, but since the American embassy in Bangkok will not provide one after December, is it possible to get one from a neighboring country with a US embassy and use it for Thai immigration?

Immigration will not accept one from an embassy outside of Thailand.

[Issanjohn]

12 hours ago, tropo said:

 

Those 2 statements are contradictory. Staff at your Immigration office state they won't accept income affidavits after January 1, but proceed to tell you that it's an Embassy problem.

 

What of all the other embassies that could still be doing income letters after January 1? What of the 6 months validity of income letters? If they (other embassies) aren't going to issue them, now would be a good time to let their citizens know. The Australian Embassy has already said it will issue income letters (income stat decs) until January 7.

My local immigration office absolutely assured me a few days ago that they will still be accepted the income affidavit after January 1st and up to six months after completion during the transition period, although I’ve heard that a few Immigration Offices aren’t on the same page as the rest of Thailand.  Although immigration really should put out official guidance on what they will require late next year after the income affidavits totally go away.  

[Number 6]

8 minutes ago, Issanjohn said:

My local immigration office absolutely assured me a few days ago that they will still be accepted the income affidavit after January 1st and up to six months after completion during the transition period, although I’ve heard that a few Immigration Offices aren’t on the same page as the rest of Thailand.  Although immigration really should put out official guidance on what they will require late next year after the income affidavits totally go away.  

With the issue being that most embassies (soon to be all) are no longer producing such documents.

 

Therefore, the standard cannot be met

 

Therefore, put 800k bank (400k) and get on with it.

 

I suspect those caught out, first year money seasoning will be lenient yet they still might require full amount.

 

Can we all just put the small money in tbe bank and move on?

 

Guidance:

1 Put 800k in the bank

2 Get a letter from the bank

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Number 6

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

Can we all just put the small money in tbe bank and move on?

Why should we?

I have plenty of proof of my income that is transferred into my Thai bank account every month that is well above what is required.

[seajae]

I head to the aussie embassy next week to get my last stat dec on money sent to my thai bank each month, also get my yearly tax slip notarized to show how much I am paid yearly. This is a pain in the arse as it costs too much for what they do(especially having to fly to Bangkok and hire taxi's) although this will be the last time I need it as I will be putting the  money into a bank for next year after doing this for several years already. My local immigration office has always wanted to see my monthly deposits in my bank account as well when producing my documentation, cant see them not just accepting my tax slip and bank account after stat decs are finished but not going to take the chance