Extreme Brexit could be worse than financial crisis for UK: BoE

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Please try and keep up. T.May is the Prime minister,admittedly a remain supporting P.M. And as such is the leader of the government, and therefore the person who is responsible for the final decisions.

What was sovereign in UK? The prime minister or the parliament? 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Please try and keep up. T.May is the Prime minister,admittedly a remain supporting P.M. And as such is the leader of the government, and therefore the person who is responsible for the final decisions.

 

It must have escaped your notice that some time ago Parliament took the decision on the final deal away from May and insisted upon having the final say.

 

Do try and keep up.

 

Parliament's authority

Quote

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

 

Of course, the Prime Minister usually commands a majority in the Commons and the Lords, whilst they can delay and revise, cannot stop any Bill passed by the Commons.

 

But if Parliament votes against the Prime Minister then it is Parliament who wins. 

[7by7]

9 hours ago, evadgib said:

This puts the latest chest-thumping into perspective...

 

 Of course, no Brexiteer has ever made a fool of themselves in public:

 The only surprise there was that it was one occasion when Boris kept his pants on!

 

A reminder of Boris in 2014

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Please try and keep up. T.May is the Prime minister,admittedly a remain supporting P.M. And as such is the leader of the government, and therefore the person who is responsible for the final decisions.

I see, UK does not have a sovereign national assembly then,

have an unelected dictator deciding the future of UK - fine with me if it suits you

(pretty much like the Commission and JCJ)

 

UK is run by enlightened one man rule as in medieval times

 

democracy and UK, no, does not go together - UK is medieval

 

I am keeping up well

problem is UK is ages behind modern Europe, ages

 

 

[evadgib]

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Of course, no Brexiteer has ever made a fool of themselves in public:

 

 The only surprise there was that it was one occasion when Boris kept his pants on!

 

A reminder of Boris in 2014

 

 

 

As Boris has the unique distinction of being able to enhance his profile each time he makes a pratt of himself I fail to see your point; furthermore your examples precede the Brexit vote by 2 or more years.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

As Boris has the unique distinction of being able to enhance his profile each time he makes a pratt of himself I fail to see your point; furthermore your examples precede the Brexit vote by 2 or more years.

Yes. I'm quite sure many of the hard core brexiteers fail to see the point. 

 

[evadgib]

18 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Yes. I'm quite sure many of the hard core brexiteers fail to see the point. 

 

 

Discounted for this debate as previously explained.

 

Here's something a little more current from Mr Spock...

 

[billd766]

9 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Reminds me of the old song:

One black one, one brown one, And one with a bit of <deleted> on, And one with a fairy light on. To show us the way. And the hairs, (And the hairs!) And the hairs,

We know a song like that don't we Billy.

 

Yes we do, Johnny.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Discounted for this debate as previously explained.

History and accountability are quite annoying things for the populists, aren't those?

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, oilinki said:

History and accountability are quite annoying things for the populists, aren't those?

None of you cared one iota for Boris's actions in real time; indeed you laughed along with the rest rest of us at his eccentricity. It only became a problem on 24 June 2016 when you woke up on the losing side!

[baboon]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

None of you cared one iota for Boris's actions in real time; indeed you laughed along with the rest rest of us at his eccentricity. It only became a problem on 24 June 2016 when you woke up on the losing side!

No it did not become a problem on 24 June 2016. He was previously, is now, and will be in the future a nasty, self-serving individual who cares about nobody apart from himself. And luckily god is taking his hair away so he is becoming increasingly unable to pull his 'affable eccentric' stunt.

[7by7]

47 minutes ago, evadgib said:

As Boris has the unique distinction of being able to enhance his profile each time he makes a pratt of himself I fail to see your point; furthermore your examples precede the Brexit vote by 2 or more years.

 

Boris made that pro EU statement in November 2014; less than 2 years before the referendum in June 2016 and 15 months before he declared himself in favour of Leave in February 2016.

 

Indeed, two weeks before declaring for Leave, he wrote in his Telegraph column:

Quote

It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.

(Source)

 

You defend Boris's change of mind, but, like him, wish to deny the rest of us the opportunity to do the same via a second referendum!

 

 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Boris made that pro EU statement in November 2014; less than 2 years before the referendum in June 2016 and 15 months before he declared himself in favour of Leave in February 2016.

 

Indeed, two weeks before declaring for Leave, he wrote in his Telegraph column:

 

You defend Boris's change of mind, but, like him, wish to deny the rest of us the opportunity to do the same via a second referendum!

 

 

 

Indeed, if the Tories can vote again on their leader, so can the country on Brexit.

 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Indeed, if the Tories can vote again on their leader, so can the country on Brexit.

 

We already did in 2016, and the Democratic decision of the British people was to exit this so called union. 

 

 

[Scott]

Offensive, inflammatory post removed.  

 

[billd766]

12 hours ago, elliss said:

         

JC ,   the  time is  nigh for you to  enter  centre  stage ,  wearing  the old Traditional Red Labour badge, with pride. 

 Out with that,  New labour shambles, and their corrupt , exspensive sweet talking spin  doctors.

   UK , has  had  enough , of this  complete  mayhem ,  no progress ,  just  bickering at tax payers exspense.

 Give JC a chance , he cant do any worse than May.   UK  has been a shambles, for too long.

Actually the Labour Party under JC can do a lot worse than the current lot, and that is saying something.

 

Have a look at their manifesto. Check on what they want to re-nationalise then try to find how they will pay for it,

 

JC says that if the Labour Party win the vote of confidence motion and become the ruling party they will renegotiate the terms of Brexit but Brexit WILL go ahead, perhaps under a different plan.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46721508

 

What is Jeremy Corbyn saying?

 

Labour has warned uncertainty over Brexit has plunged the country into a state of crisis and the agreement on the table would not satisfy either Leave or Remain voters.

 

The opposition is seeking to force a general election by calling a vote of no confidence in the government if the deal is rejected by MPs. However, Jeremy Corbyn has insisted that

In his new year message, Mr Corbyn said Mrs May could not be allowed to "drive through a bad deal" and Labour, if it was in power, would seek to reopen negotiations with Brussels to pursue a better outcome.

 

Only his party, he claimed, was capable of uniting the UK, with policies to tackle inequality and job insecurity.

 

[LucysDad]

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Actually the Labour Party under JC can do a lot worse than the current lot, and that is saying something.

 

Have a look at their manifesto. Check on what they want to re-nationalise then try to find how they will pay for it,

 

JC says that if the Labour Party win the vote of confidence motion and become the ruling party they will renegotiate the terms of Brexit but Brexit WILL go ahead, perhaps under a different plan.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46721508

 

What is Jeremy Corbyn saying?

 

Labour has warned uncertainty over Brexit has plunged the country into a state of crisis and the agreement on the table would not satisfy either Leave or Remain voters.

 

The opposition is seeking to force a general election by calling a vote of no confidence in the government if the deal is rejected by MPs. However, Jeremy Corbyn has insisted that

In his new year message, Mr Corbyn said Mrs May could not be allowed to "drive through a bad deal" and Labour, if it was in power, would seek to reopen negotiations with Brussels to pursue a better outcome.

 

Only his party, he claimed, was capable of uniting the UK, with policies to tackle inequality and job insecurity.

 

 

 

 

I think Jeremy is brilliant.

 

 

He must be if he thinks he can get a better deal than May  -  Oh!  Wait..................... perhaps he is sending Diane Abbott to negotiate!

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, LucysDad said:

I think Jeremy is brilliant.

He must be if he thinks he can get a better deal than May  -  Oh!  Wait..................... perhaps he is sending Diane Abbott to negotiate!

There were hoots of laughter during Sky's 'press preview' a couple of days ago when one of the panelists noted that Corbyn/Labour had no chance of getting anywhere with EU if May/Tories couldn't achieve anything after a full TWO YEARS ????

[talahtnut]

43 minutes ago, evadgib said:

There were hoots of laughter during Sky's 'press preview' a couple of days ago when one of the panelists noted that Corbyn/Labour had no chance of getting anywhere with EU if May/Tories couldn't achieve anything after a full TWO YEARS ????

All these political parties have given us is lies and

poverty.

We need a English workers social revolution, all

enterprises collectivized. No more 1m bonus' for

the big boss.

[dick dasterdly]

15 hours ago, elliss said:

         

JC ,   the  time is  nigh for you to  enter  centre  stage ,  wearing  the old Traditional Red Labour badge, with pride. 

 Out with that,  New labour shambles, and their corrupt , exspensive sweet talking spin  doctors.

   UK , has  had  enough , of this  complete  mayhem ,  no progress ,  just  bickering at tax payers exspense.

 Give JC a chance , he cant do any worse than May.   UK  has been a shambles, for too long.

I'd agree, except JC is as corrupt as the tories.

 

He's a leaver, but has tempered his opinion to fit in with his parliamentary members - who tried to get rid of him, but were defeated by the membership IIRC.

 

Who can trust anyone desperately trying to appeal to the  'New Labour' parliamentary MPs?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

There were hoots of laughter during Sky's 'press preview' a couple of days ago when one of the panelists noted that Corbyn/Labour had no chance of getting anywhere with EU if May/Tories couldn't achieve anything after a full TWO YEARS ????

Have to agree.  It's a political move designed to appeal to Labour MPs - who support remain, despite their constituencies thinking differently....

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

We already did in 2016, and the Democratic decision of the British people was to exit this so called union. 

 

[dick dasterdly]

I support you in this.  Silly pictures - that aren't even funny - have no place in a reasonably( ????????) sensible discussion.

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I support you in this.  Silly pictures - that aren't even funny - have no place in a reasonably( ????????) sensible discussion.

I can agree with you on this one. 

[tebee]

Brexit is like Liverpool trashing all its links to The Beatles and spending all its time and energy building Esther McVey World.

[tebee]

 

 

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1079982832401960961/pu/vid/1280x720/t14nlAMpGScYvm1c.mp4?tag=6

[7by7]

@evadgib,

 

I wont comment on your poor mathematics in saying that November 2014 to June 2016 is "more than 2 years!"

 

But I see that you haven't commented on my response to you about Boris's ambivalence towards Brexit.

Namely

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You defend Boris's change of mind, but, like him, wish to deny the rest of us the opportunity to do the same via a second referendum!

 

Of course, you are not obliged to respond; but let me phrase it as a question.

 

As you defended Boris's change of mind within a two week period over Brexit from Remain to Leave, why do you wish to deny the British people the opportunity to do the same, i.e. change their mind, via a second referendum?

 

If you are so sure that Brexit is in the best interests of the country and supported by the majority; why are you so afraid of a second referendum?

 

(OK, that's two questions. I'm asking the second again because it's been asked many times in various topics, but has yet to be answered!)

 

Of course, I would be interested in answers to these questions from any Brexiteer, not just evadgib.

 

Real answers, @nontabury, not dodging the issue with a childish comment and image.

[evadgib]

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

@evadgib,

 

I wont comment on your poor mathematics in saying that November 2014 to June 2016 is "more than 2 years!"

 

But I see that you haven't commented on my response to you about Boris's ambivalence towards Brexit.

Namely

 

Of course, you are not obliged to respond; but let me phrase it as a question.

 

As you defended Boris's change of mind within a two week period over Brexit from Remain to Leave, why do you wish to deny the British people the opportunity to do the same, i.e. change their mind, via a second referendum?

 

If you are so sure that Brexit is in the best interests of the country and supported by the majority; why are you so afraid of a second referendum?

 

(OK, that's two questions. I'm asking the second again because it's been asked many times in various topics, but has yet to be answered!)

 

Of course, I would be interested in answers to these questions from any Brexiteer, not just evadgib.

 

Real answers, @nontabury, not dodging the issue with a childish comment and image.

Actually I did respond but not necessarily in reply to you. My thoughts on the subject are:

 

a) The Brexit side would win a second referendum by a much bigger landslide.

 

b  ) a 2nd referendum nonetheless torpedoes Parliament in a manner not seen since Guy Fawkes was caught with a wet box of Swan Vestas in one hand & a cunning plan signed by Baldrick bearing the seal of Sir Edmund Blackadder in the other; & for that reason it won't happen.

 

c) It's high time votes were compulsory and tied to our NI numbers for life, regardless of geographic location, and for PR to replace FPTP as explained many times in other threads.

 

The bottom line is Remain lost fairly and squarely and no amount of whining can change it.

[7by7]

27 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Actually I did respond but not necessarily in reply to you. My thoughts on the subject are:

 

a) We would win a second referendum by a much bigger landslide.

 

b  ) a 2nd referendum nonetheless torpedoes Parliament in a manner not seen since Guy Fawkes was caught with a wet box of Swan Vestas in one hand & a cunning plan signed by Baldrick bearing the seal of Sir Edmund Blackadder in the other; & for that reason it won't happen.

 

c) It's high time votes were compulsory and tied to our NI numbers for life, regardless of geographic location, and for PR to replace FPTP as explained many times in other threads.

 

The bottom line is that you lost fairly and squarely and no amount of whining can change it.

If you did respond, I must have missed it; apologies.

 

Regarding your points:

 

a) If true, why are you so afraid of holding one?

 

b) The same could be said of each and every referendum ever held. After all, constitutionally it is parliament which is the supreme sovereign, not the people. Parliament ceded that sovereignty to the people in 1975 and again in 2016 when the then Prime Ministers promised that, although technically and legally advisory, the government would act on the results of the referendums. They could easily do so again.

 

c) I agree with you about PR, but not compulsory voting. To my mind the democratic right to vote includes the democratic right not to vote. The question of expats retaining their voting rights for life is a difficult one. How would it work for local elections? Which Parliamentary constituency would they vote in? Etc..

 

The bottom line is that a leading Brexiteer was actually a Remainer until he changed his mind less than two weeks before the campaigning begun. To be kind, as he wrote two lengthy article just prior to this, one arguing for Remain, the other for Leave, I will conclude that he weighed up all the pros and cons of both sides before making his final decision on which side to support. Others are less kind and have called him an opportunists with no real beliefs who joined the side he believed would do his political career the most good!.

 

If he is allowed to do so, then the British people should be given that chance.Especially now that the full effects of Brexit are far more widely known than they were then.

 

I have said before that I would have three questions on the ballot paper:

1. Accept and proceed with the deal agreed between the UK and EU (whatever that ends up being)?
2. Proceed with no deal.
3. Abandon Brexit and remain in the EU.

Using a single transferable vote system to eliminate the option with the lowest votes and transferring those votes to those people's second choice if there was no option with a clear majority after the first count.

 

Thoughts?

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

If you did respond, I must have missed it; apologies.

 

Regarding your points:

 

a) If true, why are you so afraid of holding one?

 

b) The same could be said of each and every referendum ever held. After all, constitutionally it is parliament which is the supreme sovereign, not the people. Parliament ceded that sovereignty to the people in 1975 and again in 2016 when the then Prime Ministers promised that, although technically and legally advisory, the government would act on the results of the referendums. They could easily do so again.

 

c) I agree with you about PR, but not compulsory voting. To my mind the democratic right to vote includes the democratic right not to vote. The question of expats retaining their voting rights for life is a difficult one. How would it work for local elections? Which Parliamentary constituency would they vote in? Etc..

 

The bottom line is that a leading Brexiteer was actually a Remainer until he changed his mind a mere two weeks before the campaigning begun. To be kind, as he wrote two lengthy article just prior to this, one arguing for Remain, the other for Leave, I will conclude that he weighed up all the pros and cons of both sides before making a decisions.

 

If he is allowed to do so, then the British people should be given that chance.Especially now that the full effects of Brexit are far more widely known than they were then.

 

I have said before that I would have three questions on the ballot paper:

1. Accept and proceed with the deal agreed between the UK and EU (whatever that ends up being)?
2. Proceed with no deal.
3. Abandon Brexit and remain in the EU.

Using a single transferable vote system to eliminate the option with the lowest votes and transferring those votes to those people's second choice if there was no option with a clear majority after the first count.

 

Thoughts?

The difference is Boris made his mind up before the Vote and not after the Vote

and there should be a 4th option on your ballot paper 

4) Remain in the EU and accept anything from the EU such as EU army, Joining the Euro, abolish house of commons, abolish house of Lords transfer of alll power and decision making to Brussels