BARF dog raw meat feeding, what kind of meat do you buy at MAKRO ?

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, neeray said:

Agreed, not recommended. Apparently raw chicken bones are okay but I don't chance that either. Chicken necks are recommended (based on my research).

I once gave my 20 kg dog a raw back rib thinking she would eat the meat off of it. Instead, she woofed it down whole. That was a scary night but the stomach acid seems to have dissolved it.

I used to buy raw beef rib bones from the butcher in Australia, my dog loved them, but I did have to take him to the vet one time for an enema because the bones had blocked his bowel. The only medical problem I had with him in 15 years up until his death. He was a pound dog I got as a pup.

[wildewillie89]

Chicken carcasses are a great meal replacement or something to add to the dog's food...also very cheap (about 6 baht each). Apart from being incredibly easy for the dog to grind down, they are good for the teeth and also contain things like omega 3, glucosamine, chondroitin etc. 

It is why some people opt not to go with the fish oil capsules, as dogs usually get the required amounts in a regular diet, and even more so if fish is in the diet. 

DD, why don't you feed them the head? Will give a higher intake of omega 3 which will counter act the omega 6 (in the rest of the diet) that causes inflammation. Also will be less gross re preparation, less waste and more cost effective. 

[wildewillie89]

https://www.google.com/search?q=chicken+carcass&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2kJinnorfAhUVcCsKHXZQBsAQ_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=Hj2i2bV-6CvgsM:
 

Can buy anywhere. Supermarkets, markets etc. 

[giddyup]

18 minutes ago, Arjen said:

Any chance for the name in Thai?

 

Why don't you do a Google translate?

[pastprime]

Just walk in,either loose or pre bagged think around 10 kg weight    about 15 baht a kilo

 

[jak2002003]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:11 PM, Arjen said:

I believe direct your dog is healthy, I do believe the dog downstairs is less healthy, I do believe your dog is on RAW diet, and does not eat rice, and I do believe that the dog downstairs is on an other diet.

 

But to say that your way of feeding is "proof in point" is same as saying, "smoking is healthy, because my grandfather started smoking at an age from 8 years, and he died when he was 110 because of a car accident"

 

We have 16 dogs, they are all on the standard dry food, and one has now health problems, probably caused by food, and some other external factors.

 

Arjen.

Agree with you post 100 percent. 

 

Dogs can eat pretty much anything.  They evolved to eat left over scraps from humans for thousands of years.  They are not wolves and their digestive tract have evolved differently to handle a lot of stuff.

 

I have had dogs eat the cheap dry dog food and they were in perfect health and lived long happy lives.  I have had dogs on raw food diets and they also did well.  

 

Most health problems are to do with the genetics of the dog.  Many pedigree dogs these days have so many genetic health problems from inbreeding.

 

So long as OP dog has no allergies then feed it a varied diet of a mix of dry dog food, raw meat and bones, and it will do great.  

 

The raw food on the bone is fantastic for the dogs dental health.

 

If people want to feed raw.. then they should just stick to meat, bones and organs of a wild variety of animals.  It totally defeats the idea when they start adding vegetables, rice, grains etc.... they might as well feed the commercial dry feed!!!!

 

With all my years of dog keeping experience, and experience with pet food manufacture and sales ,I found the best diet is mid priced commercial dry dog feed which uses rice instead of corn.  Add to this the occasional raw bone, raw chicken leg / wing / feet and clean fresh water.  Dogs are really healthy and have good teeth.  

 

Sorry for lengthy post!  

[jvs]

10 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Agree with you post 100 percent. 

 

Dogs can eat pretty much anything.  They evolved to eat left over scraps from humans for thousands of years.  They are not wolves and their digestive tract have evolved differently to handle a lot of stuff.

 

I have had dogs eat the cheap dry dog food and they were in perfect health and lived long happy lives.  I have had dogs on raw food diets and they also did well.  

 

Most health problems are to do with the genetics of the dog.  Many pedigree dogs these days have so many genetic health problems from inbreeding.

 

So long as OP dog has no allergies then feed it a varied diet of a mix of dry dog food, raw meat and bones, and it will do great.  

 

The raw food on the bone is fantastic for the dogs dental health.

 

If people want to feed raw.. then they should just stick to meat, bones and organs of a wild variety of animals.  It totally defeats the idea when they start adding vegetables, rice, grains etc.... they might as well feed the commercial dry feed!!!!

 

With all my years of dog keeping experience, and experience with pet food manufacture and sales ,I found the best diet is mid priced commercial dry dog feed which uses rice instead of corn.  Add to this the occasional raw bone, raw chicken leg / wing / feet and clean fresh water.  Dogs are really healthy and have good teeth.  

 

Sorry for lengthy post!  

Agree with most you said,a dog is no longer a hunter but a scavenger!!Somebody mentioned chicken carcass at 6 baht a piece,i can only find them at 23 baht a kilo.I feed them frozen and raw ofcourse.Frozen solid the dogs can not eat them really fast and it gives their jaws and teeth a good workout,also it cools them down.A good carcass has still a lot of meat left and some even have the head.Also pork ribs at 20 baht a kilo is nice to feed.We have a lot of chickens and ducks roam around our yard and none of the dogs ever chases a bird.That is just another myth out there.Tripe and lung are very pricy here.I used to be able to get a whole cows tail for 40 baht but those days are gone,the dogs loved them.I fed them whole frozen,including skin.

[wildewillie89]

4 hours ago, jvs said:

Agree with most you said,a dog is no longer a hunter but a scavenger!!Somebody mentioned chicken carcass at 6 baht a piece,i can only find them at 23 baht a kilo.I feed them frozen and raw ofcourse.Frozen solid the dogs can not eat them really fast and it gives their jaws and teeth a good workout,also it cools them down.A good carcass has still a lot of meat left and some even have the head.Also pork ribs at 20 baht a kilo is nice to feed.We have a lot of chickens and ducks roam around our yard and none of the dogs ever chases a bird.That is just another myth out there.Tripe and lung are very pricy here.I used to be able to get a whole cows tail for 40 baht but those days are gone,the dogs loved them.I fed them whole frozen,including skin.

If we get at Makro we will generally fill up a bigger bag you get from the scales counter of 10 and it comes to 64 or 65 baht (hence the 6 baht a piece). They are on special more often than they aren't as they go bad in a fridge quiet quickly (after a few days), which isn't so bad for a dog but 99.99% of sales are directed towards Thai people, not dogs. So just buy bulk and freeze them and take out each day and put in the fridge before giving the dogs. Supermarkets are slightly more expensive, with outside markets sometimes being even more expensive again but well worth it as they have a lot more sizeable carcasses.

*Edit: The issue with feeding fully frozen things is potential pulpitis (where the dog's tooth turns purple and eventually dies). Seeing as most Thai vets will not do root canals or even extraction for that matter, it is something people should probably try and avoid. 

[wildewillie89]

The whole debate is so difficult and confusing. For example, Anatolian Shepherds predominant diet was bran (grain, rice, oats, barley etc) flour, oil and left over vegetables all cooked in a pot until it is a thick soup consistency. In some regions broken corn was/is used over rice. 

Along with that yoghurt, raw eggs and raw meat a few times a week, This is a dog that has been around for 6,000 odd years and is a hardy breed (that is, lower cases of hip dysplasia and bloat than other giant breed dogs. Although as they are becoming more popular...). So these dogs actually do better on carbohydrates. For example, the ratio of meat to wheat in a standard dog like a Doberman maybe 3 to 1, whereas in an Anatolian it is 1 to 3. 

Then again, other livestock guardian breeds that have been around similar amounts of time are very self-sufficient and often hunted and consumed small animals when out in the field for days without seeing their master. 

I think many dogs do well on many different diets. People need to look at more their lifestyle probably and see if diet plays a role in preventing disease. For example, for larger dog owners with dogs that stress or are very keen on food, then dry food (kibble) isn't a great option regarding bloat (raw and veggies probably better). Dogs that have joint problems probably don't need diets that will further inflame the body so cutting back on carbohydrates, grains etc is beneficial. Different dogs have allergies. Probably a case by case basis. I naturally lean towards raw as I tend to own large to giant dogs. With a smaller dog I would probably lean towards a stronger commercially produced/raw mix. 

[jvs]

14 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

The whole debate is so difficult and confusing. For example, Anatolian Shepherds predominant diet was bran (grain, rice, oats, barley etc) flour, oil and left over vegetables all cooked in a pot until it is a thick soup consistency. In some regions broken corn was/is used over rice. 

Along with that yoghurt, raw eggs and raw meat a few times a week, This is a dog that has been around for 6,000 odd years and is a hardy breed (that is, lower cases of hip dysplasia and bloat than other giant breed dogs. Although as they are becoming more popular...). So these dogs actually do better on carbohydrates. For example, the ratio of meat to wheat in a standard dog like a Doberman maybe 3 to 1, whereas in an Anatolian it is 1 to 3. 

Then again, other livestock guardian breeds that have been around similar amounts of time are very self-sufficient and often hunted and consumed small animals when out in the field for days without seeing their master. 

I think many dogs do well on many different diets. People need to look at more their lifestyle probably and see if diet plays a role in preventing disease. For example, for larger dog owners with dogs that stress or are very keen on food, then dry food (kibble) isn't a great option regarding bloat (raw and veggies probably better). Dogs that have joint problems probably don't need diets that will further inflame the body so cutting back on carbohydrates, grains etc is beneficial. Different dogs have allergies. Probably a case by case basis. I naturally lean towards raw as I tend to own large to giant dogs. With a smaller dog I would probably lean towards a stronger commercially produced/raw mix. 

Yes you are right,look at some bears in the wild some prefer meat and others prefer berries and even grass and leaves.These are bears from the same family.Remember before WW2 there was no commercial dog food at all.When i was young we never even fed our dog,she ate pig feed,cow feed ,placentas from pigs and cows and the occasional dead piglett.

[dick dasterdly]

23 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

Chicken carcasses are a great meal replacement or something to add to the dog's food...also very cheap (about 6 baht each). Apart from being incredibly easy for the dog to grind down, they are good for the teeth and also contain things like omega 3, glucosamine, chondroitin etc. 

It is why some people opt not to go with the fish oil capsules, as dogs usually get the required amounts in a regular diet, and even more so if fish is in the diet. 

DD, why don't you feed them the head? Will give a higher intake of omega 3 which will counter act the omega 6 (in the rest of the diet) that causes inflammation. Also will be less gross re preparation, less waste and more cost effective. 

Thank you for this very informative and interesting post wildewillie.

 

I'd previously ignored chicken carcasses as I thought it would result in too much bone in their diet, but thinking about it, I only feed them chicken wings a couple of times a week plus cuts of lamb leg (again, a couple of times a week), and there isn't much bone in a slice of lamb leg.

 

I didn't feed them the Mackerel heads as the bones are v tough and sharp, and I though it might cut their mouths, but again, I much appreciated your info. about the head containing more omega 3 - and as one of my dogs has joint problems (fortunately minor) - this is important info.

 

As a result, I'll start feeding them the head too - but unfortunately this will make the task even more revolting as the dog with joint problems has a small mouth, so I'll have to chop it up ????....

[dick dasterdly]

23 hours ago, Arjen said:

Propably a stupid question,

 

What is a chicken carcasse?  And where to buy? First I thought you where talking about a complete chicken, but that is not possible for that price? Translation websites do not help me much further.....

 

Please help me out!

 

Kind regards, Arjen.

 

 

It's a chicken with most of the meat stripped off, leaving only the carcass (bones) and a little meat.

 

As pointed out by others, they're easy to find in Makro (on the scales counter where you bag your own chicken/pork) and markets.

[wildewillie89]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Thank you for this very informative and interesting post wildewillie.

 

I'd previously ignored chicken carcasses as I thought it would result in too much bone in their diet, but thinking about it, I only feed them chicken wings a couple of times a week plus cuts of lamb leg (again, a couple of times a week), and there isn't much bone in a slice of lamb leg.

 

I didn't feed them the Mackerel heads as the bones are v tough and sharp, and I though it might cut their mouths, but again, I much appreciated your info. about the head containing more omega 3 - and as one of my dogs has joint problems (fortunately minor) - this is important info.

 

As a result, I'll start feeding them the head too - but unfortunately this will make the task even more revolting as the dog with joint problems has a small mouth, so I'll have to chop it up ????....

I think it would be more the dog is getting more omega 3 by purely consuming more grams of meat which is higher in omega 3 rather than the head actually containing more than the rest of the body. I know I put that terribly but hopefully it is understandable. But if the dog has joint problems a tad more extra fish (the head) over another meat source that may be high in omega 6 is probably a better option re omega 3 to 6 ratio. 

[wildewillie89]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Thank you for this very informative and interesting post wildewillie.

 

I'd previously ignored chicken carcasses as I thought it would result in too much bone in their diet, but thinking about it, I only feed them chicken wings a couple of times a week plus cuts of lamb leg (again, a couple of times a week), and there isn't much bone in a slice of lamb leg.

 

I didn't feed them the Mackerel heads as the bones are v tough and sharp, and I though it might cut their mouths, but again, I much appreciated your info. about the head containing more omega 3 - and as one of my dogs has joint problems (fortunately minor) - this is important info.

 

As a result, I'll start feeding them the head too - but unfortunately this will make the task even more revolting as the dog with joint problems has a small mouth, so I'll have to chop it up ????....

I am pretty good with meat, but watching them hack away at a full fish with the golden turmeric paste mixed with fish guts going all over the hanging Mastiff jowls isn't all that pretty haha. 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, wildewillie89 said:

I am pretty good with meat, but watching them hack away at a full fish with the golden turmeric paste mixed with fish guts going all over the hanging Mastiff jowls isn't all that pretty haha. 

I can well imagine ????!

 

But at least you are lucky in that they will eat a whole fish, rather than just look at it suspiciously and then walk away!

 

Edit - My smaller dog won't even eat a whole chicken leg, which is why they now get chicken wings instead....

[wildewillie89]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:57 AM, dick dasterdly said:

and as one of my dogs has joint problems (fortunately minor) - this is important info.

All our mail that gets sent from Australia seems to go missing so I now use Thai friends I have in Melbourne to bring over what I want and post it from Bangkok to the wife's work. Finally, I just got hold of some Rose-Hip Vital Canine, which apparently has been scientifically proven to help joint problems. I think only one farm (in Denmark) produce it in a certain way that makes it more effective than standard rose hip products. I will let you know if it helps my dogs knee. 3 week loading dose and then the dose is halved and used for however long it is needed. They sell it in powder (for bigger dogs) and capsule form. 

A few YouTube videos of it helping smaller dogs. One review was of a chocolate Lab that had had the knee (acl) surgery twice but still had problems. The vet recommended this product and it hasn't had problems since. Most people use it for hips and elbows. Quite pricey. The 500g powder was about 2,200 baht I think, but obviously much cheaper in the long run for a smaller dog.  

My dog I have now restricted to 3 short walks per day and a bit of swimming (he is staying in about a 36 square metre fenced off area)...along with turmeric, glucosamine/chondroitin and some papaya. He has gone from not being able to put any weight on the leg to now only being in pain when he first gets up. If let him out into the yard then he still works hard. Sprints, jumps, stands on back legs, goes up and down stairs, puts all his weight on the bad leg when he pees etc, so it is a bit confusing. Maybe a bit of scar tissue has strengthened it as he rests most of the day/night now. Trying to avoid the surgery as much as possible just because everywhere I ask has said they can do it but have never done it on a dog his size - so hard to decide. A fair quality of life at the moment, or do it. 90% success rate back home but they do it on big dogs everyday. So you would think a much higher chance of them ruining him here due to inexperience, misreading x-rays to get right size plates etc.  

[l4ml4m]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:31 PM, neeray said:

My understanding from previous research is that "white" rice is perfectly okay for dogs.

 

White rice is not okay for anybody. Funny that some people still don't know.

Eating any carbs is totally useless and dangerous for 100% of people and dogs.

It's almost as smart as giving pork or chicken bones...

 

 

 

 

[l4ml4m]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:41 PM, kekalot said:

it's only "perfectly okay for dogs" if you want them to be sick

dogs need meat. never saw dogs raid a rice field

 

if you care about your dogs health you will either feed them raw meat, organs and bones

or

you will get them meat/fish based grain free food (that is right, NO rice). vegetables and fruits is fine. (Taste of the Wild, Orijen, etc) will cost you 2900 baht or so for 13kg bags, good for around 3 months each (on my 30kg BT)

 

proof in point is the Pit Bull that lives downstairs for me, about 4-5 years old by now.

my 9 years old Bull Terrier always had grain free food and raw meaty bones his whole life and never had a single health issue

vs

her dog that is half his age and is fat, loses hair, has 10 different health issues and looks like cancer on legs. getting fed rice and table scraps and cheapest dry food around

 

trust me she pays more in veterinarian visits than I pay for food

 

This is the only truth.

 

 

[neeray]

4 minutes ago, l4ml4m said:

 

White rice is not okay for anybody. Funny that some people still don't know.

Eating any carbs is totally useless and dangerous for 100% of people and dogs.

It's almost as smart as giving pork or chicken bones...

 

 

 

 

Oh !

Then I guess the world should give up on Google searches (since we who often "don't know" go there for advice).

[sometime]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:41 PM, kekalot said:

it's only "perfectly okay for dogs" if you want them to be sick

dogs need meat. never saw dogs raid a rice field

 

if you care about your dogs health you will either feed them raw meat, organs and bones

or

you will get them meat/fish based grain free food (that is right, NO rice). vegetables and fruits is fine. (Taste of the Wild, Orijen, etc) will cost you 2900 baht or so for 13kg bags, good for around 3 months each (on my 30kg BT)

 

proof in point is the Pit Bull that lives downstairs for me, about 4-5 years old by now.

my 9 years old Bull Terrier always had grain free food and raw meaty bones his whole life and never had a single health issue

vs

her dog that is half his age and is fat, loses hair, has 10 different health issues and looks like cancer on legs. getting fed rice and table scraps and cheapest dry food around

 

trust me she pays more in veterinarian visits than I pay for food

Sorry but all dogs just like humans are not the same.

I have 5 rescue dogs 4 are fine on dry all in one with added cooked liver, but the other dog his protien intake must be kept low or he get the shits his imune system has always been not very good, he is now 12 years of age

[kickstart]

On 12/7/2018 at 10:03 AM, dick dasterdly said:

It's a chicken with most of the meat stripped off, leaving only the carcass (bones) and a little meat.

 

As pointed out by others, they're easy to find in Makro (on the scales counter where you bag your own chicken/pork) and markets.

I have a Thai vet friend, and he is good at his job, and he says he is always operating on Thai dogs ,that the owner has feed to many chicken bone's to ,problem is that some undigested bones  get stuck in the intestines, which then prevents any digested food passing through the rest of the intestines, a very serious problem ,I had it happen to one of our dogs, had to inject him for 4 days ,and we used some Thai constipation drug to shift the obstruction ,it worked for us ,but as my vet friend said a lot of dogs are not so lucky .

Our 2 adopted Thai stray dogs just get rice, mainly the small reject grains, I buy this rice from our local rice mill.

[wildewillie89]

Raw bones are not a problem for dogs as they do not splinter. Obviously watch your dog consume raw bones for the first couple of weeks so you know they are not taking on too much of a task. What happens in Thailand is the locals feed 'cooked' bones. Completely different and vets are correct in saying not to do that. 

I do not think any vet in this world, who is good at their job, would suggest feeding rice over raw bones. Chicken carcass is incredibly soft, easily cut with kitchen scissors. 

[NaDu]

On 12/26/2018 at 10:47 AM, l4ml4m said:

 

White rice is not okay for anybody. Funny that some people still don't know.

Eating any carbs is totally useless and dangerous for 100% of people and dogs.

It's almost as smart as giving pork or chicken bones...

 

 

 

 

 

It's true that so many people don't even know that they are sick because of carbs/sugar that they eat.

Exactly similar problem for dogs, but I guess that people are more interesting to play with their useless expensive mobile than trying to feed themselves and dogs correctly...

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Last week I had the full range of blood tests on my dogs, as they're getting old and so I want to know about any potential problems.

 

One of my dogs BUN results was slightly higher than 'normal', and so I asked the vet about this and she said 'slightly too much protein, but nothing to worry about'.

 

Nonetheless, I obviously I do worry about it - and am looking for GOOD ways to reduce the protein in her diet.  As mentioned previously, I feed my dogs a mostly raw meat diet.

 

At the moment I'm thinking about adding more veg./kibble and perhaps baked potato/rice to her diet - whilst reducing the meat content?

[dick dasterdly]

The blood tests for my other dog indicated possibly a slight liver problem, and so she's been given Hepato (liver supplement) tablets for the next month, after which further blood tests will be taken.

 

Any advice as to how to improve their individual diets would be appreciated.

[dick dasterdly]

Off topic - but neither had any blood parasites .

 

Thank god for first Bravecto, and then NexGuard Plus, as previously I'd had endless problems with tick-borne blood parasites!

 

'Wonder drugs' in line with penicillin from my pov!

[neeray]

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Last week I had the full range of blood tests on my dogs, as they're getting old and so I want to know about any potential problems.

 

One of my dogs BUN results was slightly higher than 'normal', and so I asked the vet about this and she said 'slightly too much protein, but nothing to worry about'.

 

Nonetheless, I obviously I do worry about it - and am looking for GOOD ways to reduce the protein in her diet.  As mentioned previously, I feed my dogs a mostly raw meat diet.

 

At the moment I'm thinking about adding more veg./kibble and perhaps baked potato/rice to her diet - whilst reducing the meat content?

As stated before, my very healthy 13 year old is on raw meat diet, predominantly ground chicken or turkey. As a "filler", I include some cooked carrots and potatoes, sometimes some greens like Brussels sprouts or broccoli, but mostly carrots. This may address your reduction of protein question.

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, neeray said:

As stated before, my very healthy 13 year old is on raw meat diet, predominantly ground chicken or turkey. As a "filler", I include some cooked carrots and potatoes, sometimes some greens like Brussels sprouts or broccoli, but mostly carrots. This may address your reduction of protein question.

So more veg. is probably the answer?

 

Not at all sure about carrots as even in the uk they were found to be full of various chemicals - unless organic.

 

But I am thinking along similar lines - more (foreign sourced if at all possible) brussels and spinach along with potatoes or rice.

[grollies]

One way for them to get veg nutrients is to make a vegetable stock soup. Mix with scrap rice. My dogs won't touch boiled veg or fruit....except coconut flesh which they love.

[wildewillie89]

22 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Last week I had the full range of blood tests on my dogs, as they're getting old and so I want to know about any potential problems.

 

One of my dogs BUN results was slightly higher than 'normal', and so I asked the vet about this and she said 'slightly too much protein, but nothing to worry about'.

 

Nonetheless, I obviously I do worry about it - and am looking for GOOD ways to reduce the protein in her diet.  As mentioned previously, I feed my dogs a mostly raw meat diet.

 

At the moment I'm thinking about adding more veg./kibble and perhaps baked potato/rice to her diet - whilst reducing the meat content?

If the vet said it isn't something to worry about then I probably wouldn't worry about it (number doesn't seem too high to the vet). The vet is probably looking at the dog from an age point of view (older dogs/possible renal issues around the corner).

Yes, a high BUN isn't perfect, but if you take protein out of the diet then it can lead to other things like reduced glomerular filtration rate (GFR) - so less protein means less blood being filtered through so more toxins staying, and reduced renal plasma flow. 

I think the old thinking was that high protein does have a negative impact on kidneys as studies show that, however, the studies were done on rats, not dogs. As dogs do eat high protein diets, newer (but small) studies have found high protein diets do not cause actual harm, just slightly elevate the BUN - as is the case with your dog.

I am obviously no vet but if I was to have a guess, that is possibly where the vet is coming from. Phosphorus levels okay?