No Letter and no Money

[luckyluke]

There was once an honest guy asking a simple question on Thai Visa.....

[puchooay]

13 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

There was a time when particularly 50+ Europeans could get one. Pretty much most westerners. They'd do a TR home country and then go get  a single O and then GTFO until next cool season.

 

Used to be one of my many games.

Yes, a single. The comment was regarding multi entry. Not available from Savannakhet.

[BertM]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

Roger, you haven't given us a lot of clues as to your circumstances. However as you're living here, like many of us are, on pensions, you must have been getting an income letter from the embassy. To do that your pensions must be meeting the required minimum of 40k or 65k per month.

 

If that's the case what are you worried about? You won't need to put 400k or 800k in the bank, providing you're able to prove to TI that you have the income to meet the criteria.

 

Don't be panicked by all the gloom and doom. I'm in a similar situation as you and I'm not worried 

He may have been one of the many whose incomes didn't meet the 40k or 65k requirements, but was able to get the income letters all these years to be able to stay in Thailand even though his income didn't meet the requirements. You can always ask him for his pension income and if it meets, then he shouldn't have anything to worry about.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

As retirees having abided by the rules of immigration to the book for several years, the Thai government should provide some kind of reasonably priced medical insurance policies or health care schemes for over 50 year old expats. I believe the reason they are reluctant to provide this is because they believe many elderly westerners with maybe already having health issues will decide to settle in Thailand as medical refugees, to obtain cheaper health care than in their own countries. Again it`s all about money. So it`s really a catch 22 situation.

Exactly.  And why any medical requirement could be a double-edged sword. So best to make any required insurance be "stabilize and repatriate" insurance.  If people can afford better private health-ins here than this, that is then a benefit to the country, rather than a cost.

 

But, for all we know, the reason the OP cannot squirrel away the bank-money could be, in-part, due to paying health-insurance premiums - which are quite high when you get older.

 

2 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

An average UK pension is probably more than the average wage of most third world countries, so does that give British citizens on average pensions the right to stay in any third world country long term?

Not a "right" - but the 3rd World country would be wise to accept the free-money pouring in.

 

2 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

What about the reverse, should Thais be banned from living in Britain because their average wage is lower than the UK State pension?

In general, only if they do not have the funds to support themselves in the UK.  But given the welfare and other very different factors between the two, there is more to it than this when a person from a lower-wage country goes to a higher-wage country.  

 

Those barriers to entry in the other direction prevent the entire world from becoming a giant 3rd world slum, given the population of poverty-wage nations.  Thailand, being between the two extremes, should be very careful to prevent large numbers of lower-wage nation's citizens, without their "own money," to enter and stay.   But they have nothing to fear from those of us who can earn far more in our own countries, than we can working illegally here.

[Danthai]

Agree. Too many posters make assumptions on pensioners without knowing anything. Cannot speak for other countries pensioners, but many of the US retired military pensioners living month to month have fairly decent monthly incomes, especially, if also getting SS benefits. Retired military get very good medical Tricare benefits overseas. Others may have insurance plans as well. Its not the monthly income that is hard to live on, it's having a chunk of money sitting idle in the bank above what they need to live on. That's why the monthly income method is needed. Everyone should work together to solve the current situation.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Danthai

[JackThompson]

As to other nations - regarding to Cambodia, Vietnam, and the PI nearby, I would say the PI is the least likely govt to ever betray you.  They have a sense of decency to foreigners which is unique to the region. 

 

Also consider Latin America.  There are dangerous areas, but also safer areas.  Pension type deals range from 25K Baht/mo and up.  I think Mexico is around 33K Baht/mo.  You can also do the Tourist Visa hop there forever, in many countries, without issue.  Expats often split van-rentals or share-rides for this purpose. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by JackThompson

[Gumballl]

34 minutes ago, Danthai said:

Agree. Too many posters make assumptions on pensioners without knowing anything. Cannot speak for other countries pensioners, but many of the US retired military pensioners living month to month have fairly decent monthly incomes, especially, if also getting SS benefits. Retired military get very good medical Tricare benefits overseas. Others may have insurance plans as well. Its not the monthly income that is hard to live on, it's having a chunk of money sitting idle in the bank above what they need to live on. That's why the monthly income method is needed. Everyone should work together to solve the current situation.

It was my understanding that a retiree that is unmarried needs to deposit, on a monthly basis, 65000 Baht into a Thai bank. If the retiree is married to a Thai, then the amount is 40000 Baht (or a combination of pension funds and income from spouse).

 

Once the money has been deposited, it can then be spent.

 

There's no need to have money sitting idly in a bank account (unless that's one wants to do... i.e. planning for unforeseen circumstances).

 

When it comes to renewing the extension of stay, the retiree will need to prove to the IO that the appropriate amount of funds have been deposited in a Thai bank. A bank statement covering 12 months of deposits will be sufficient to prove this.

 

I am not a retiree yet (I choose to work, albeit in the USA), but when my time comes, I do not see what the hoopla is all about.

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

It was my understanding that a retiree that is unmarried needs to deposit, on a monthly basis, 65000 Baht into a Thai bank. If the retiree is married to a Thai, then the amount is 40000 Baht (or a combination of pension funds and income from spouse).

 

Once the money has been deposited, it can then be spent.

 

There's no need to have money sitting idly in a bank account (unless that's one wants to do... i.e. planning for unforeseen circumstances).

 

When it comes to renewing the extension of stay, the retiree will need to prove to the IO that the appropriate amount of funds have been deposited in a Thai bank. A bank statement covering 12 months of deposits will be sufficient to prove this.

 

I am not a retiree yet (I choose to work, albeit in the USA), but when my time comes, I do not see what the hoopla is all about.

Incorrect.

[Gumballl]

21 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Incorrect.

Sigh.. a reply from a person with limited vocabulary and/or with no evidence to back up their statement.

 

Consideration for Extending Non-Immigrant O-A (Retirement/Long-Stay) Visa:

(1) The alien has obtained a temporary visa (NON-IM); and
(2) The applicant is 50 years of age or over; and
(3) Proof of income of not less than Baht 65,000 per month; or
(4) Account deposit with a bank in Thailand of not less than Baht 800,000 as shown in bank account transactions for the past 3 months; or
(5) Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date of application

 

Documentation to be submitted includes:

1. Application form
2. Copy of the applicant's passport
3. Proof of income, e.g., retirement pension, interest earnings or dividends, etc.; and/or
4. Certificate of local bank account deposit together with copies of bank account records
5. Only in the case set out in clause (6), the same documentation as stated in clauses 1-4 above shall be required.

 

The day a person checks into LOS for retirement, they should have the 800K (or 400K if married to Thai) Baht available an account with funds for when it is time to convert (for example) a Tourist Visa to a Non-O visa. This money must be seasoned for 2 months prior to apply for the change of visa status (so yes, in this initial context it must sit idle in the account).

 

In the meantime, it is expected that the retiree continue to deposit at least 65K (or 40K if married) Baht per month into the account. Once the Non-O has been granted, then the retiree should continue to deposit the minimum monthly amount in anticipation of the renewal of extension (in 12 months). [Note, an additional 20K Baht may be needed because 12 x 65K = 780K]

 

When applying for the renewal of extension, the proof (documentation) that is needed is described in Option 4 above. As for option 3, embassies are no longer providing this service (so what!).

 

P.S. From the Thai Immigration site, and a pizz-poor translation into English by Google:

 

กรณีใช้ชีวิตในบั้นปลาย

หลักเกณฑ์การพิจารณา

คนต่างด้าวต้องได้รับการตรวจลงตรา ประเภทคนอยู่ชั่วคราว มีอายุตั้งแต่ 50 ปีบริบูรณ์ขึ้นไป มีหลักฐานการมีเงินได้ไม่น้อยกว่า เดือนละ 65,000 บาท หรือ ณ วันยื่นคำขอมีเงินฝากในธนาคารใน ประเทศไทยคงอยู่ในบัญชีตลอดระยะ เวลาย้อนหลัง 3 เดือน ไม่น้อยกว่า 800, 000 บาท เฉพาะในปีแรกให้แสดงบัญชีเงิน ฝากโดยมีเงินจำนวนดังกล่าวฝากอยู่ในบัญชี มาแล้วไม่น้อยกว่า 60 วัน หรือ มีเงินได้ในรอบปี และมีเงินฝากธนาคาร คำนวณรวมกันได้ไม่น้อยกว่า 800,000 บาท นับถึงวันยื่นคำขอ ----

Life in the End

Criteria for consideration

Aliens must be inspected. Temporary people They are 50 years old or older. Is there evidence of money not less than 65,000 baht per month? As of the date of filing, there are deposits in the bank. Thailand has remained in the account  for the past 3 months not less than 800, 000 Baht only in the first year to display the account.  Deposit with the amount deposited in the account.  Not less than 60 days? Have money in a year And have a bank deposit. Calculate at least 800,000 baht,  up to the date of application.

 

[youreavinalaff]

45 minutes ago, Gumballl said:

Sigh.. a reply from a person with limited vocabulary and/or with no evidence to back up their statement.

 

Consideration for Extending Non-Immigrant O-A (Retirement/Long-Stay) Visa:

(1) The alien has obtained a temporary visa (NON-IM); and
(2) The applicant is 50 years of age or over; and
(3) Proof of income of not less than Baht 65,000 per month; or
(4) Account deposit with a bank in Thailand of not less than Baht 800,000 as shown in bank account transactions for the past 3 months; or
(5) Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date of application

 

Documentation to be submitted includes:

1. Application form
2. Copy of the applicant's passport
3. Proof of income, e.g., retirement pension, interest earnings or dividends, etc.; and/or
4. Certificate of local bank account deposit together with copies of bank account records
5. Only in the case set out in clause (6), the same documentation as stated in clauses 1-4 above shall be required.

 

The day a person checks into LOS for retirement, they should have the 800K (or 400K if married to Thai) Baht available an account with funds for when it is time to convert (for example) a Tourist Visa to a Non-O visa. This money must be seasoned for 2 months prior to apply for the change of visa status (so yes, in this initial context it must sit idle in the account).

 

In the meantime, it is expected that the retiree continue to deposit at least 65K (or 40K if married) Baht per month into the account. Once the Non-O has been granted, then the retiree should continue to deposit the minimum monthly amount in anticipation of the renewal of extension (in 12 months). [Note, an additional 20K Baht may be needed because 12 x 65K = 780K]

 

When applying for the renewal of extension, the proof (documentation) that is needed is described in Option 4 above. As for option 3, embassies are no longer providing this service (so what!).

 

P.S. From the Thai Immigration site, and a pizz-poor translation into English by Google:

 

กรณีใช้ชีวิตในบั้นปลาย

หลักเกณฑ์การพิจารณา

คนต่างด้าวต้องได้รับการตรวจลงตรา ประเภทคนอยู่ชั่วคราว มีอายุตั้งแต่ 50 ปีบริบูรณ์ขึ้นไป มีหลักฐานการมีเงินได้ไม่น้อยกว่า เดือนละ 65,000 บาท หรือ ณ วันยื่นคำขอมีเงินฝากในธนาคารใน ประเทศไทยคงอยู่ในบัญชีตลอดระยะ เวลาย้อนหลัง 3 เดือน ไม่น้อยกว่า 800, 000 บาท เฉพาะในปีแรกให้แสดงบัญชีเงิน ฝากโดยมีเงินจำนวนดังกล่าวฝากอยู่ในบัญชี มาแล้วไม่น้อยกว่า 60 วัน หรือ มีเงินได้ในรอบปี และมีเงินฝากธนาคาร คำนวณรวมกันได้ไม่น้อยกว่า 800,000 บาท นับถึงวันยื่นคำขอ ----

Life in the End

Criteria for consideration

Aliens must be inspected. Temporary people They are 50 years old or older. Is there evidence of money not less than 65,000 baht per month? As of the date of filing, there are deposits in the bank. Thailand has remained in the account  for the past 3 months not less than 800, 000 Baht only in the first year to display the account.  Deposit with the amount deposited in the account.  Not less than 60 days? Have money in a year And have a bank deposit. Calculate at least 800,000 baht,  up to the date of application.

 

Proof of income. Not proof of deposit into a Thai bank account. Two totally different entities.

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, puchooay said:

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

I have seen a report (uncorroborated) in the past of someone getting the same ME Non ‘O’ visa from the consulate in Savannahket, Laos on the basis that they were state retirement age. That might be an option.

ME O visas are not available in Savannakhet based on retirement. Only married to a Thai.

I've edited my post to make it easier for you to read and understand.

[luckyluke]

5 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Proof of income. Not proof of deposit into a Thai bank account.

And as per yesterday (maybe change today) :

A so called : "Embassy Letter".

Hence the problem for Americans,Australians,British,Danes; no embassy letter, or soon no more.

So these citizens, even with a monthly income of 40000/65000 and more, are standing with their back to the wall, as per now.

This is apparently the o.p.'s case. 

Of course one can use the dodgy agents way,  fixing everything in a non  legal way ( but quite popular ). 

There are of course honest agents, who are ready to help you, for a fee, providing you have the requested legal  "material". 

[lovelomsak]

11 hours ago, phutoie2 said:

wow, another member of the "if you aint got the dosh, you shouldn't be living here club"

Why don't you lend him the money?

He plans ahead does not need my money.

  What i do not understand is if he plans ahead how did this come about?

Edited December 2, 2018 by lovelomsak

[Justin Side]

9 hours ago, Gumballl said:

 If the retiree is married to a Thai, then the amount is 40000 Baht (or a combination of pension funds and income from spouse).

 

That is so wrong !!

Cannot have a combination.

Money has to be the applicants only.

[gmac]

30 minutes ago, lovelomsak said:

He plans ahead does not need my money.

  What i do not understand is if he plans ahead how did this come about?

Forward planning does not negate the effects of unforeseen disasters........9/11 and the 2008 banking crash come to mind.  My own plans have been decimated by these two events although so far I have been fortunate enough to be able to survive these events albeit at a much more conservative level.  Others may not be so lucky!

 

 

[doctormann]

9 minutes ago, gmac said:

Forward planning does not negate the effects of unforeseen disasters........9/11 and the 2008 banking crash come to mind.  My own plans have been decimated by these two events although so far I have been fortunate enough to be able to survive these events albeit at a much more conservative level.  Others may not be so lucky!

 

 

Absolutely right.

 

I built in a large contingency when I moved out here at 75 Baht to the GBP.  The 2008 crisis and, lately, the Brexit debacle - I'm a Brit - have reduced that rate to 42 Baht to the GBP, on a good day!  i did not foresee such a large reduction in my income, which is all derived from UK pensions.  I sincerely doubt that anyone else saw this coming either - if they are honest about it.

 

I'm still surviving and have sufficient income - for the income route - or could, at a pinch, put 800k Baht into an account here, if necessary, although having to transfer funds from the UK at a terrible exchange rate is not desirable.  Like many others, I need some statement from TI, regarding what constitutes acceptable proof of income, in the absence of an Embassy letter.

 

Living in hope for a resolution but planning for the 800k as well, just in case.

[puchooay]

7 hours ago, elviajero said:

I've edited my post to make it easier for you to read and understand.

Well done. However, what you wrote is not an option.

[BritTim]

17 hours ago, puchooay said:

Why not just wait for an announcement from immigration? I'm sure they are not going to leave those that used the embassy letter system high and dry.

I do not share your certainty on this. They may decide that the "desirable" retirees can afford to deposit money in a Thai bank. Perhaps, they want to get rid of those who cannot. We will see.

[puchooay]

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

I do not share your certainty on this. They may decide that the "desirable" retirees can afford to deposit money in a Thai bank. Perhaps, they want to get rid of those who cannot. We will see.

My reply was to the OP. A gentleman who is staying here on the basis that he has enough money to stay here. Many people in the same situation. They have the required monthly income but need a new way to prove it. At what point does that make them undesirable?

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, puchooay said:

My reply was to the OP. A gentleman who is staying here on the basis that he has enough money to stay here. Many people in the same situation. They have the required monthly income but need a new way to prove it. At what point does that make them undesirable?

I put "desirable" in quotes. I happen to believe that anyone who wants to retire to Thailand who is able to support themselves ought to be welcome. However, it is naive to think that everyone in authority in Thailand feels the same way. You will see a lot of talk of "quality" tourists and "rich" retirees. IMHO, it is highly unpredictable whether immigration will change their rules to help those here who lack savings. If they do decide to give those using income statements an alternative, it might be approved medical insurance on the basis that a medical emergency would not make them a possible burden on Thailand. Or, they may allow the Thai embassy in your home country to validate income statements at a price. I really do not know.

[Wallander4]

To OP : Go to Bulgaria - way cheaper than Thailand and UK citizens get free health care (deal between UK and Bulgaria).

[wwest5829]

Depends on your pension and being able to demonstrate that it is coming into Thailand for your monthly support. I use the monthly income method and intend to continue this method as outlined by Thai regulations. The affidavits are being issued until the new year and are good for 6 months after issue so that will take folks through June renewals. If you can demonstrate the required 65K (single) or 40K (married to a Thai), I would not sweat the "letter" issue.

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

the Thai government should provide some kind of reasonably priced medical insurance policies or health care schemes for over 50 year old expats.

Governments getting involved in medical insurance..... there's an idea!

Thai government is busy taking care of Thais. Some Thai insurance companies, and International ones, already offer competitively priced cover.

[alex8912]

21 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

"I can never understand why elderly westerners would even consider retiring abroad without enough funds put by for a rainy day..."

 

There are always condescending posters in each of these threads asking this, and the answer is so obvious:

 

If someone has limited funds, they go live in a cheaper country.

If the choice is going broke in one's native country or having the funds to last several times longer in a 3rd world country, the decision is an easy one.

 

"My dad once told me, you make your own bed and you must lie on it and he was right."

 

Another "blame the victim" statement. Your father's commonplace views of life and fortune cookie sayings are less than profound.

 

Someone or their loved one has a serious illness and the medical bills are too much, someone works hard but the company downsizes and one can't find a job over a certain age, etc,, etc.

Tons of examples in the news everyday.

 

But a certain segment of TVF posters instead get pleasure and try to build up their deficient sense of self with these condescending and worthless posts.

 

 

 

 

You are assuming quite a bit. Did you even consider many have none of those issues and just didn’t plan enough or wasted money and never purchased a place in their home country and were often not hard working? Those are the people many on here are critical about. It seems like it’s quite a few. 

Oh and then there is a story or a person that’s mentions a BMW or a Mercedes or a 5 star hotel or having some $$$ and a bunch of guys criticize him. 

But going out drinking and smoking and eating like a pig on a paupers budget is respected a lot here. 

Very strange. Happy to pop in here but to praise never having a mature plan is just ridiculous.

[giddyup]

20 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

I was forcibly retired and in my case, if not for my parents, I would have been living on the streets in Australia at 38.

 

Some of us just go where we can only stay. If my parents were dead (and not wealthy) and the fact I only get a pension of 30K a month tells me, I would be homeless in Australia. At least in Thailand, I have a wife and a life. Not all of us have a lifetime of work and choice before us due to so many reasons. 

 

A little bit of pity goes a long, long way.

You retired at 38 and found it impossible to find work so your parents now support you, have I got that right?

[Naam]

4 hours ago, Wallander4 said:

To OP : Go to Bulgaria - way cheaper than Thailand and UK citizens get free health care (deal between UK and Bulgaria).

and if you look for low rentals check out the suburbs of Mazar-e-Sharif or Jalalabad, Afghanistan.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

and if you look for low rentals check out the suburbs of Mazar-e-Sharif or Jalalabad, Afghanistan

Have they got the Visa on Arrival facility, how far from the beach and what about the nightlife?

[nickmondo]

22 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

If you believe my comments are condescending then your outlook between what are the harsh realities of life and seeing everything through rose tinting glasses are warped.

 

Over the last few months several of my expat acquaintances have asked me to help top up their savings in ways of loans to total 800000 baht to obtain their retirement extensions. I have flatly refused saying I am not going to leave myself vulnerable for people who have decided to settle in Thailand without proper planning and would advise anyone else to do the same. The odds are that these loans would not be paid back and even if they were, if helping these people for one time, it`s going to be the same for the following years when they come cap in hand asking for more assistance, a vicious circle.

 

I have a retired cousin in England who was considering retiring in Thailand, following in my footsteps. I know he only receives a basic UK State pension with not much in savings and advised him not to come here except for a holiday and why. Luckily he has common sense and took my advice as I would advise others in similar situations.

 

The world is becoming a tougher place and very much more money orientated. I am forever telling my children to start paying into pension funds now and start saving for their old age, as old age looms quicker then many young people think. Will they listen? I don`t know for sure.

 

I have pity for elderly people that suddenly find themselves in financial dire straights during the last stages of their lives when they should be living a lifestyle of ease and plenty, especially when the powers that be decide to move the goal posts. But sorry to say no one is going to pull them out and others should heed these warnings and not live their lives on chance alone. That the reality and thus is life. Take my comments anyway you like, nothings going to change.

 

 

hear hear.

totally agree

[totally thaied up]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

You retired at 38 and found it impossible to find work so your parents now support you, have I got that right?

 

At 13, I got very sick. They did not work out the problem until I was 19. I suffer from a schizo-affective disorder and have several other disorders as well (OCD- Harm being the worst) and I am in unable to work due to behavioral issues. I have a cross between bipolar and schizophrenia. It is pretty near medication resistant and I just live with it as well as can be expected. I am mediated but they work only so well and the side effects make daily life very hard.

 

It was always not like this. I did have a good job and a Company but when I fell sick, I made choices and trusted the wrong people. I was generally unlucky; the older I got, the worse the illness became.

 

At 37 I had a very bad meltdown during work and I had a business partner during this time take over my businesses and I lost my life savings. He generally stole a million dollar business beneath me during a time I was very sick. I never did recover 100% from this incident. I still suffer daily from my disorder. It is serious and very little can be done by doctors

 

As for my parents, they do not help me at all but they have promised me they will leave me a good monthly Trust Payment upon death. I am on a special pension now from my Government due to the fact this disorder is pretty bad. I have this week, for the first time in three years, been able to leave my village and surrounding areas and be able to travel with my wife as I have been well (no visual, auditory hallucinations or temper meltdowns like a two-year-old)  for the past three months. When I came to Thailand 10 years ago, I did not care if I lived or died and just was very lost. I met my wife and she turned a lot of this around.

 

I am a happy go lucky type of chap. I love my wife and her family very much as that is pretty much all I have on this earth. Thailand gives me a sense of worth for these reasons. Some of us are not very lucky in life. I was not with my health. I did not ask for what I got, but this is how I have to live. I am the black sheep of my family and my family are happy I am a long way from them. 

[fforest1]

On 12/2/2018 at 3:56 PM, bkk6060 said:

If you are truly desperate and do not mind a reduction in your lifestyle and 3rd world environment, then Cambodia.

Otherwise, shop around and negotiate with an agent and stay here.

The Chinese are making Cambodia a uncheap country fast..... Sihanoukville use to be Cambodias Pattaya till the Chinese took the place over....