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BANGKOK 23 July 2019 20:54
johnmcc6

Australian pension

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15 hours ago, LosLobo said:

 

 

To the average person, the above posts would seem to be offering conflicting advice. 😵

About as conflicting as this:

 

on 1/22/2019/at 5:544PM, David Waldren said: 

I will not now be making any further contributions on this site on this subject.

And this

on 1/22/2019 at 6:32PM, David Waldren said:

My very very last post...

 

 

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15 hours ago, LosLobo said:

 

 

To the average person, the above posts would seem to be offering conflicting advice. 😵

If you took into account the average single AAP recipient with the average personal assets of only about $120,000 you could expect to buy blue-chip investments returning 6/7%  (ASX 200) with perhaps 3% capital appreciation, thus, if you were 65 y/o you should be able to take 10% or about $10/12.000 each year and not pay any tax as the Seniors tax threshold is $32,000 income free each year and not even put a tax return in.  This investment should last forever maybe and increase in relation to the CPI. 

Edited by David Walden
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39 minutes ago, David Walden said:

If you would like a correct answer you need to ask you question bearing in mind if your questions are about  AAP matters or self-funded and over retirement age because different answers will apply for over or under 65y/o. i.e...tax thresholds, single or married, the work bonus which significantly increases your income threshold.  Income, deeming amounts and asset thresholds and other issues.  The "work bonus" will have a big effect on your deeming threshold, seniors tax offsets for couples and a host of other things.  It's mostly on the Centrelink web site and seniors tax information offset infomation.  Can be daunting navigation to what you want to know......PS Centrelink has no interest in your taxation liabilities.  Most pensioners (about 83%) pay no tax whatsoever. 

Watch out for tax accountant giving advice about Centrelink matters they probably know less than you do.

This stuff is very confusing for me as a lame person, i.e. I am aware that as my Mrs is 21 years my junior, she will not be entitled to the AAP and if we say we are married, which we are, i.e. we married in Australia, I will receive about half of the married rate of the AAP, that said, the plan is to divorce, no issue with that, just a piece of paper and was a requirement back then for her to remain in Australia when she entered on a tourist visa, then she got a bridging visa, then spouse visa, then she applied for citizenship and received it, so we will divorce no issues and I will receive the single rate of the AAP if I apply for it and am approved.

 

The above said, from my understanding, I can have $465,500 worth of assets as a Non-Homeowner, however this asset will have a deeming rate applied to it, i.e. if I earn up to $51,200 they will reduce my AAP (single rate) as they will tax me 1.75% up to the threshold ($51,200) over that the rate goes up to I think it's 3.25% or something like that, but I am not going to be making that kind of bacon on $465,500 as that would reflect 11% return...lol.

 

So when I put in $465,500 on their calculator, it showed that the AAP for a single person would reduce to $726.20 or thereabouts and I am ok with that.

 

Where I get confused is this seniors taxation offset ?

 

I mean where does this come into play, eg if I have $465,500 as a single on the AAP, I am having my single rate reduced because of the deeming aren't I ? So I don't understand where this seniors tax offset comes into play ?

 

Can you elaborate on that so as to put me on the straight and narrow, and if you see anything above being out of wake.

 

Cheers

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1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

This stuff is very confusing for me as a lame person, i.e. I am aware that as my Mrs is 21 years my junior, she will not be entitled to the AAP and if we say we are married, which we are, i.e. we married in Australia, I will receive about half of the married rate of the AAP, that said, the plan is to divorce, no issue with that, just a piece of paper and was a requirement back then for her to remain in Australia when she entered on a tourist visa, then she got a bridging visa, then spouse visa, then she applied for citizenship and received it, so we will divorce no issues and I will receive the single rate of the AAP if I apply for it and am approved.

 

The above said, from my understanding, I can have $465,500 worth of assets as a Non-Homeowner, however this asset will have a deeming rate applied to it, i.e. if I earn up to $51,200 they will reduce my AAP (single rate) as they will tax me 1.75% up to the threshold ($51,200) over that the rate goes up to I think it's 3.25% or something like that, but I am not going to be making that kind of bacon on $465,500 as that would reflect 11% return...lol.

 

So when I put in $465,500 on their calculator, it showed that the AAP for a single person would reduce to $726.20 or thereabouts and I am ok with that.

 

Where I get confused is this seniors taxation offset ?

 

I mean where does this come into play, eg if I have $465,500 as a single on the AAP, I am having my single rate reduced because of the deeming aren't I ? So I don't understand where this seniors tax offset comes into play ?

 

Can you elaborate on that so as to put me on the straight and narrow, and if you see anything above being out of wake.

 

Cheers

I would be cautious about taking DW's advice about divorcing and living together separately and apart.

 

I cannot see how it would be ethical.

 

Attached is DSS's spin on the subject:

 

http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/2/2/5/20

 

I don't see why you keep specifying this "$465,500" when you mainly have only financial assets and will be income tested.

 

The "$465,500" is an unnecessary DW artifact when calculating your entitlement.

 

The range from full pension to no pension for single man would be $161,200 to $768,300.

 

The (SAPTO) Seniors and Pensioners Tax Offset just increases your assessable income threshold from $18k to $32k.

 

Edited by LosLobo
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46 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

I would be cautious about taking DW's advice about divorcing and living together separately and apart.

 

I cannot see how it would be ethical.

 

Attached is DSS's spin on the subject:

 

http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/2/2/5/20

 

I don't see why you keep specifying this "$465,500" when you mainly have only financial assets and will be income tested.

 

The "$465,500" is an unnecessary DW artifact when calculating your entitlement.

 

The range from full pension to no pension for single man would be $161,200 to $768,300.

 

The (SAPTO) Seniors and Pensioners Tax Offset just increases your assessable income threshold from $18k to $32k.

 

Oops wrong link:

http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/2/2/5/30

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53 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

I don't see why you keep specifying this "$465,500" when you mainly have only financial assets and will be income tested.

I believe that the figure of $465,500 is a threshold for a single person who does not own a home, and therefore receives the full pension of $916.30 up to the threshold amount if they are not working. 

 

Go over that amount and the pension drops, that said, when you put that amount of $552 per fortnight in the deeming calculator which says you are earning $552 per fortnight, it tells you that your pension amount is reduced from $916.30 for a single person down to $726.30 per fortnight.

 

53 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

The range from full pension to no pension for single man would be $161,200 to $768,300.

I calculated that under the threshold of $465,500 you receive a full pension of $916.30 and at your maximum figure of $768,300 as quoted you receive $7.90 which is basically saying, you get get no pension.

  

53 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

The (SAPTO) Seniors and Pensioners Tax Offset just increases your assessable income threshold from $18k to $32k.

So I am assuming this is for those that want to work, i.e. the ATO's threshold is usually $18,200 then tax is applied thereafter, but if your a senior, the threshold is raised by the ATO to $32,000 before you start paying any tax. That said if I put $0 as assets and that threshold of $32,000 as my income, i.e. $1,230 per fortnight in the calculator, it tells me that my pension is reduced to $387.30 per fortnight from $916.30 per fortnight, now if you keep going and work out the difference from the ATO giving you a free ride up to $32,000 (no tax), but Centrelink reducing your single rate AAP from $916.30 to $387.30, that in essence means they are taking from your pension the difference i.e. $529 per fortnight, which doesn't make any sense, I mean why on earth would anyone want to work who is on the pension, it doesn't make any sense.

 

53 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

I would be cautious about taking DW's advice about divorcing and living together separately and apart.

I NEVER do anything illegal, even as a non resident I pay tax on the money I make from some consultancy work that I do from here, but as the money is paid into my account in Oz, it's taxed at 32.5%, suffice to say, it is what it is and I just forked $6,000 out in tax, had I been living in Australia or retained my residency I would pay less, but then again I wouldn't be getting the free ride I do with the stock market whereby I don't pay any tax on monies made from there, which includes no capital gains tax, so your damned if you do and your damned if you don't, but when I weigh up what I would pay in tax and capital gains tax from the stock market, I would be worse off as a resident of Australia for tax purposes, so I take it on the chin 🙂

 

53 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Even if it was legal I cannot see how it would be ethical.

 

Attached is DSS's spin on the subject:

I agree with you, it would be on the lines that we are divorced, we live separately, as much as I don't like it, I accept it, that is their rules, which to me is not right, i.e. my wife of 12 years has never worked in our relationship, she is a full time mum, here in Thailand where we live, opportunities are limited and if she did work it would be like $10-$12 a day and personally I wouldn't have her work for that kind of money. If they changed the rules to ok, your married, so your wife doesn't work, therefore you get the full single rate, as opposed to $200 less per fortnight, which is crazy to me, but like I say, it is what it is, you just have to play the system.

 

All of the above said, I could shift my assets before I turn 62, i.e. 5 years, but I see no point in covering things up, I have what I have and when the time comes, if it's $465,500, it's $465,500, if it's more, then I will receive less from m understanding. I am a firm believer that keeping yourself on the straight and narrow, means no one can get you for anything, now if I did return and get the AAP and returned to live in Thailand with my divorced wife, well, I suppose that would be deemed legal, as I have built a  self contained flat separate (attached) to the main dwelling, which is 112m2 in size 🙂

 

 

Self-contained residences

In situations where one party is residing in a separate fully self-contained dwelling such as a flat attached to the home or in a second home on the property, it is more likely to be considered that the person is living separately and apart.

 

Edited by 4MyEgo

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14 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I believe that the figure of $465,500 is a threshold for a single person who does not own a home, and therefore receives the full pension of $916.30 up to the threshold amount if they are not working. 

 

Go over that amount and the pension drops, that said, when you put that amount of $552 per fortnight in the deeming calculator which says you are earning $552 per fortnight, it tells you that your pension amount is reduced from $916.30 for a single person down to $726.30 per fortnight.

 

I calculated that under the threshold of $465,500 you receive a full pension of $916.30 and at your maximum figure of $768,300 as quoted you receive $7.90 which is basically saying, you get get no pension.

 

Yes effectively that would apply to someone who has a lot of non financial assets and would be paid the pension tested by the asset test. You are not that person. No need to mention $465,500 again.

Edited by LosLobo
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32 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

So I am assuming this is for those that want to work, i.e. the ATO's threshold is usually $18,200 then tax is applied thereafter, but if your a senior, the threshold is raised by the ATO to $32,000 before you start paying any tax. That said if I put $0 as assets and that threshold of $32,000 as my income, i.e. $1,230 per fortnight in the calculator, it tells me that my pension is reduced to $387.30 per fortnight from $916.30 per fortnight, now if you keep going and work out the difference from the ATO giving you a free ride up to $32,000 (no tax), but Centrelink reducing your single rate AAP from $916.30 to $387.30, that in essence means they are taking from your pension the difference i.e. $529 per fortnight, which doesn't make any sense, I mean why on earth would anyone want to work who is on the pension, it doesn't make any sense.

Why are you using the pension calculator for tax?

 

There is no relationship between assessing your pension and assessing your tax!

 

When you do your tax as a non working pensioner, that is if you need to, your taxable income will be your pension from Centrelink plus any investment profits. If this is less than $32k you will not have a tax liability.

Edited by LosLobo
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25 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Yes effectively that would apply to someone who has a lot of non financial assets and would be paid the pension tested by the asset test. You are not that person. No need to mention $465,500 again.

Why is it then that Centrelink advertises that a Non Homeowner has a threshold of $465,000 ?

 

Are shares not deemed financial assets ? If not, is that why they are assessed under the deeming calculator ?

 

Totally lost, although I get the part of the seniors offset of $32,000 thanks, I'm assuming the $32,000 applies to a couple ?

Edited by 4MyEgo

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48 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Why is it then that Centrelink advertises that a Non Homeowner has a threshold of $465,000 ?

 

Are shares not deemed financial assets ? If not, is that why they are assessed under the deeming calculator ?

 

Totally lost, although I get the part of the seniors offset of $32,000 thanks, I'm assuming the $32,000 applies to a couple ?

Have PM'd you 🙂

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2 hours ago, LosLobo said:

I would be cautious about taking DW's advice about divorcing and living together separately and apart.

 

I cannot see how it would be ethical.

 

Attached is DSS's spin on the subject:

 

http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/2/2/5/20

 

I don't see why you keep specifying this "$465,500" when you mainly have only financial assets and will be income tested.

 

The "$465,500" is an unnecessary DW artifact when calculating your entitlement.

 

The range from full pension to no pension for single man would be $161,200 to $768,300.

 

The (SAPTO) Seniors and Pensioners Tax Offset just increases your assessable income threshold from $18k to $32k.

 

1

The situation about "separated and living under the one roof applies to me" and Centrelink knows all about it.  I have no fears about that.

I will no longer respond to any questions about Centrelink entitlements on this site.  Let's go and talk about going and living in Portugal on the AAP.  It's looking more attractive every day.

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5 hours ago, LosLobo said:

I would be cautious about taking DW's advice about divorcing and living together separately and apart.

 

I cannot see how it would be ethical.

I was told in no uncertain terms via Centrelink, they will review your living arrangements in Thailand (or in fact, anywhere in the world you live). I get every two years review forms sent to my home address asking me to update the status of my marriage and asking about changes to my assets. I know plenty of guys here living or cohabitating with a Thai woman and it is clearly a defacto relationship ( http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/2/2/5/30 ) but claim being single. I do not agree with this at all because the honest ones like myself get reviewed almost every second year due to being married and doing it honestly while the rest get away scot-free. If I divorced and still lived with my wife (had a sexual relationship), would this be honest or correct? Some will say the Government needs to know nothing but it is clearly 'getting around' the system. 

 

It is not ethical at all but I sleep well at night understanding if Centrelink ever came after me, I got nothing to hide and believe me, the Overseas Services section look. If you ever have been under a review (I got reviewed twice in the last five years both at the same time by the ATO and Centrelink - I had to pay back $73 but I still had to pay it back!) They may not get you now but if they decide to go after you, you will have a lot of explaining to do. I lose a lot of money every year from being honest but at least I get to call my wife my wife and don't cheat the system that is so good to me.

Edited by totally thaied up

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1 hour ago, Nemises said:


Noted.....again.

1 hour ago, Nemises said:


Noted.....again.

You will note I said Centrelink entitlements matters...I'll just sit back and watch you all self destruct.  Should be interesting.

 
 

 

 

Edited by David Walden
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8 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

I was told in no uncertain terms via Centrelink, they will review your living arrangements in Thailand (or in fact, anywhere in the world you live). I get every two years review forms sent to my home address asking me to update the status of my marriage and asking about changes to my assets. I know plenty of guys here living or cohabitating with a Thai woman and it is clearly a defacto relationship ( http://guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/2/2/5/30 ) but claim being single. I do not agree with this at all because the honest ones like myself get reviewed almost every second year due to being married and doing it honestly while the rest get away scot-free. If I divorced and still lived with my wife (had a sexual relationship), would this be honest or correct? Some will say the Government needs to know nothing but it is clearly 'getting around' the system. 

 

It is not ethical at all but I sleep well at night understanding if Centrelink ever came after me, I got nothing to hide and believe me, the Overseas Services section look. If you ever have been under a review (I got reviewed twice in the last five years both at the same time by the ATO and Centrelink - I had to pay back $73 but I still had to pay it back!) They may not get you now but if they decide to go after you, you will have a lot of explaining to do. I lose a lot of money every year from being honest but at least I get to call my wife my wife and don't cheat the system that is so good to me.

I believe you are your own worst enemy?

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