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Thai Elite 20 vs 5 year, Thoughts?


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2 hours ago, MehrK said:

This is true, but man that is so far in the future it doesn't even feel like a real benefit to me at this point. From what I've read from those over 50, this is a pain in the butt though. Good point!

 

Exactly!, try the next 10 years instead.  With peace of mind for 20 years, you don't even have to live here to think about it. ☺️

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15 hours ago, Tom9999 said:

The question is not really 5/(6) years versus 20 Years.

If you can see yourself here or returning to Thailand regularly 6 years down the road from today then go for the 20 Year Visa.

In 6 years you still do not qualify for any other Visa, unless getting married to a Thai.

 

So if you are likely to purchase a second 5 Year TE Visa in 6 years then by purchasing directly a 20 Year Visa you get 8 Years "free".

This will bring you over the threshold of 50 years and you can continue on a Non O.

 

If you decide life is better somewhere else and you have a bigger earning power there then you can afford having paid for the Visa.

 

So ask yourself: Is it likely that I still want to spend a significant time each year in Thailand 6 years from now? 

 

PS:

I am over 50 and have a 20 Year PE Visa, purchased for 1 Million THB 2 years ago.

I can afford it, still working abroad and like being able to come and go like a local.

Good point on picturing whether or not I'd want to spend a significant amount of time each year in Thailand, 6 years from now. As of right now, the answer is yes. Hopefully it doesn't wear on me I continue to feel this way! I do like the fact that the 20 year would put me over the 50 year retirement age and continuing as Non O. Thought it's a long ways from now, it does give me that option should I decide to stay here that long. 

 

Thanks for sharing that you're on the Visa even after 50 because of being able to go abroad and come/go like a local. I like that convenience as well. 

14 hours ago, Ctkong said:

Hai mehrk, I would like to give my two cents worth of advice here. 

But first I would like some clarification from you. You mentioned that you are 36, earning enough passive income from home and single. You are not planning to earn some money working at the side. Have you thought about the future when you set up a family with somebody? I once was also free and easy. But now saddled with a family, the expenses seem to be flying off the budget. Do you think your passive income is going to be on the upward trend and able to cover future bigger expenses ? I have heard a number of hard luck stories of foreigners who had to cut short their retirement plan due to unforeseen circumstances like falling exchange rate, health insurance and bad investments. Always hope for the best and expect the worst. 

Assuming all are rosy , then I would like to give some information for my missus’s 20 year TE visa. My missus ( rather girlfriend) is a Myanmar chinese . She used to obtain various guises of visa be it Education visa, work permit for past 10 years. She is now 33. I find that the authorities are getting more and more stringent in the visa department.  It is a matter of time that they closed up all the loop holes for long stay here in Thailand. So I decided to buy her a 20 year TE visa. The cheaper version without the frills at 1 million baht. TE is a whollly owned company of TAT so it may be a statutory board of TAT?  I think TE is not going to disappear in future because the thailand government is committed to welcome ‘rich spending foreigners’ into their country. It is to their advantage to honor the contract too because the so called rich folks can relocate to any of the ASEAN countries if they wanted to.  Given the economic growth of the competing neighbors, there would only be more competition for quality tourists. 

90 days reporting can be handled by the TE office for Bangkok, chiangmai and Phuket areas only if I am not mistaken. Last week of the 90 days, passport must be submitted to the office on Monday or Tuesday and collected on Friday. 

You would also be given priority in opening bank account as well as credit card application.  Credit amount of credit card is collateralled with the fixed deposit you put in.  Platinum card can be obtained. 

Many posters had given the pros and cons of 5/20 years package so I would not dwell on that.

my final parting advice is if you can afford to part with 1 million baht with little pain, then it is the way to go. You will enjoy many years of convenience it provides. By the time 20 years( 21 years if use extension after the final year)  is up, you are already 56/57 so time to use retirement visa .

if you were to decide to cut short your stay in Thailand and had to write off the money invested in TE visa, I would think that the balance of the small amount is the least of your worries. You would have more important issues to deal with then. 

Life is a gamble. Who can foresee the future? But the price of the  5 years TE visa( though fully loaded)  is already half the price of the  20 years no frills TE visa. Take a gamble and roll the dice...

 

 

I haven't done much family planning and am still on the single man life at the moment. I do know that I want to raise a family "one day", but not sure when. Most likely between the ages of 40-45 ????. I do believe my income will be going up over time and should be able to cover future bigger expenses, God willing. I've heard a lot of stories of people that have had that happen to them, here and back in the US, it's a scary thought. One good thing about trying to bounce back from something like, while in Thailand, is being in a place where things ARE cheaper. I'm pretty conservative with my investments and business and hope things will go well down the road also. Great thought experiment regarding the family and worst case scenarios though, Thank you.

 

Thanks for sharing about the GF, interesting. I've heard mixed views on the TE visa, some believe it for sure will stay around, others don't think so, it's hard to gauge for myself. I have a feeling that my stance resonates more with what you're saying about it. I agree, that it's in their best interest to at LEAST see previous sold TE visa's through to the end. But who knows if they will be logical about things if things don't go well. 

 

"if you were to decide to cut short your stay in Thailand and had to write off the money invested in TE visa, I would think that the balance of the small amount is the least of your worries. "This really helps put things in to perspective. At that point the $15k USD about for an extra 15 years wouldn't be the biggest plate on my mind, because it is already a past cost and the money will already have been spent. 

 

I appreciate your comment and it's really helping me with my decision. Cheers

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4 hours ago, tpkhk said:

I too got excited over the same post from Sunbelt - ran it by a lawyer who is active in this field - who said NO WAY it would fly (ie. legally permit employment for a foreigner without a Work Permit for an Amity Treaty company).  I was the fourth or fifth person to quote the same article.  Sunbelt is credible - wonder what they themselves say now.

 

 

Also, on another matter - the 90 day reporting - each time you travel & return back, that 90 day clock starts ticking.  With the amount of travel you do, you'll probably rarely have to go in person &/or even hand it to TE for processing.... unless you stay here for 89+ continuous days.

Ah interesting to know about the the Amity and the work permit. I mean they were quoting an official statement in that article, right? Either way, guess it would still be doable via the method you mentioned.

 

True on the 90 day reporting. It's kind of an incentive for me to plan little vacations to not have to report. The difference would be huge doing that on the TE visa vs doing visa runs. No stress, hassle free immigration both in/out. Nice.

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I wouldn't get too hung up on the 90 day reporting.  Over the past 3 years I've done all my 90 day reports on-line (except when co-ordinating it with my extension, or once when I'd miscalculated my due date), and it take less time than making a couple of posts here.

If you want to leave the country 4-5 times per year, great (and the Elite is perfect for this since you don't need any re-entry permits except for the last (+1) year at the end), but don't use the excuse of 90 reports be your main driver.

...unless you choose to live in one of the Neanderthal regions that don't accept On-line reporting, of course...!

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50 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Over the past 3 years I've done all my 90 day reports on-line (except when co-ordinating it with my extension, or once when I'd miscalculated my due date), and it take less time than making a couple of posts here.

Indeed. You can do it by post also.

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On 12/7/2018 at 8:58 PM, MehrK said:

Ah very interesting perspective. That's something to consider also. If I buy the 5 year, and want to live here much longer, It will end up being 1.5m total IF it's still 1m Baht to get the 20 year, 5 years from now.

 

Thanks for sharing man. To be honest I have no idea how things will be in 5 years, sigh. I guess I need to make some big boy decisions.  

You're not a 'big boy" yet if you think today you know what your life will be like 10, 15 or 20 years from now. Also, few Western expats last very long in their newly-adopted country. They either become bored or disillusioned with expat life, or their life takes an unanticipated turn.  

 

BTW, you should get some professional guidance on your USA tax obligations. It's very unlikely you'll be able to legally not pay USA taxes -- no matter where you live in the world. That is, if you want to maintain your USA citizenship. 

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At age 36-  I would purchase a 5 year plan.   You are too young to depend upon Thailand as a permanent home due to many factors that have already been mentioned. 

 

I, personally, would do nothing  and make no investments or spend a large amount of money on anything until after the  election set for February 24, 2019.  There is way too much uncertainty in the air until one sees  how the next government is structured and if it will be accepted.

 

Until the election situation is settled- it will be difficult to assess the exchange rate.  According to a few economist projections I have read is that the US Dollar is in line for a big correction which will bring the Dollar down to around 28-29 exchange rate to the Baht.

 

Also, depending on your liquidity and total investment- you need to look at what your  potential exposure is over 5 years and then 20 years. At Age 36-45-  if necessary you could return to work at a nice salary. After the age of 50-  that won't happen. 

You don't ever want to end up in Thailand being hurting for money or living month to month. When one is poor- this country will  eat you alive.

 

I wish you well...

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On 12/8/2018 at 7:16 AM, KittenKong said:

My yearly retirement extension takes me well under one hour to obtain and costs me just 2000B (including photos and photocopies). It is nothing even remotely like a hassle. In fact I would say that a normal weekly trip to the supermarket is much more of a hassle and takes longer.

 

Need to add 3900 for a multi-use re-entry permit.

 

Yes, still cheap compared to TE, IMHO.

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1 hour ago, exemplary21 said:

 

Need to add 3900 for a multi-use re-entry permit.

 

Yes, still cheap compared to TE, IMHO.

The costs for retirement extensions work out to just over 6000b a year, or 60K over 10 years. 200b for that bank letter for 800K seasoning.  So yes it is very cheap.  Being retired I can spend a few hours at TI once a year to get this processed, I just have to watch 1 movie less.  Sometimes I make a trip to TI 3 months prior to the extension just to be sure to be sure I have things covered, so all in maybe 2 movies less. ????

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6 hours ago, trawler said:

For what it's worth,have one of the old style TE visa for life and that was in 2007,still works fine and don't have the worries of immigration visits as also travel regionally enough that I am never here for more than 90 days.

While it's a chunk of cash it does give peace of mind in case the rules change on retirement or any other visa.

Yes it's a sunken cost but have made use of the services and will continue to do so????

So personally I think it's worth or it.

Cheers

 

Really nice to here. Thanks for sharing. You had me at "peace of mind" ????

4 hours ago, HerbalEd said:

You're not a 'big boy" yet if you think today you know what your life will be like 10, 15 or 20 years from now. Also, few Western expats last very long in their newly-adopted country. They either become bored or disillusioned with expat life, or their life takes an unanticipated turn.  

 

BTW, you should get some professional guidance on your USA tax obligations. It's very unlikely you'll be able to legally not pay USA taxes -- no matter where you live in the world. That is, if you want to maintain your USA citizenship. 

As mentioned, I was honest about not knowing what life would be like even 5 years from now. Big boy decisions give direction and planning to that outcome though. I am exactly where I am today, financially, physically and in my freedom to travel, that I planned more than 5 years ago. It is true though, it can becom easy for things to change and anything can happen. I've also had some friends pass away in the past 5 years ???? . This can happen in Thailand and anywhere else in the world also. Either way, I believe decisions I make now will affect my future.

 

Thanks for bringing up the tax considerations, far too many US Citizens don't know anything about this. I'm well versed in my US and international tax obligations. Even as a US Citizen, it is favorable to be in a country that doesn't tax it's tax residents on worldwide income. Appreciate your response Ed!

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

At age 36-  I would purchase a 5 year plan.   You are too young to depend upon Thailand as a permanent home due to many factors that have already been mentioned. 

 

I, personally, would do nothing  and make no investments or spend a large amount of money on anything until after the  election set for February 24, 2019.  There is way too much uncertainty in the air until one sees  how the next government is structured and if it will be accepted.

 

Until the election situation is settled- it will be difficult to assess the exchange rate.  According to a few economist projections I have read is that the US Dollar is in line for a big correction which will bring the Dollar down to around 28-29 exchange rate to the Baht.

 

Also, depending on your liquidity and total investment- you need to look at what your  potential exposure is over 5 years and then 20 years. At Age 36-45-  if necessary you could return to work at a nice salary. After the age of 50-  that won't happen. 

You don't ever want to end up in Thailand being hurting for money or living month to month. When one is poor- this country will  eat you alive.

 

I wish you well...

I wasn't aware there was a major election on Feb 24 that could change things that drastically. How often does this happen? Good thing to be mindful of.

 

"Also, depending on your liquidity and total investment- you need to look at what your  potential exposure is over 5 years and then 20 years. At Age 36-45-  if necessary you could return to work at a nice salary. After the age of 50-  that won't happen. You don't ever want to end up in Thailand being hurting for money or living month to month. When one is poor- this country will  eat you alive."  - Warning/advice understood and I'll definitely remember that. Thank you very much.

 

 

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I have to point out that just because you set up shop in Thailand as you say, you may NOT be exempt from possible USA taxation since you are an American citizen.  Now there are certain exemptions for income "EARNED" abroad, but even if you have some sort of business, buy and sell things, etc.  that may not be exempt from USA IRA income reporting or taxation and the self employment tax may come into play.

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20 minutes ago, MehrK said:

Really nice to here. Thanks for sharing. You had me at "peace of mind" ????

As mentioned, I was honest about not knowing what life would be like even 5 years from now. Big boy decisions give direction and planning to that outcome though. I am exactly where I am today, financially, physically and in my freedom to travel, that I planned more than 5 years ago. It is true though, it can becom easy for things to change and anything can happen. I've also had some friends pass away in the past 5 years ???? . This can happen in Thailand and anywhere else in the world also. Either way, I believe decisions I make now will affect my future.

 

Thanks for bringing up the tax considerations, far too many US Citizens don't know anything about this. I'm well versed in my US and international tax obligations. Even as a US Citizen, it is favorable to be in a country that doesn't tax it's tax residents on worldwide income. Appreciate your response Ed!

I wasn't aware there was a major election on Feb 24 that could change things that drastically. How often does this happen? Good thing to be mindful of.

 

"Also, depending on your liquidity and total investment- you need to look at what your  potential exposure is over 5 years and then 20 years. At Age 36-45-  if necessary you could return to work at a nice salary. After the age of 50-  that won't happen. You don't ever want to end up in Thailand being hurting for money or living month to month. When one is poor- this country will  eat you alive."  - Warning/advice understood and I'll definitely remember that. Thank you very much.

 

 

How often do major elections happen?  Are you serious?  Have you not researched Thailand at all?  The country has had more coups, junta takeovers, the last few decades than most countries have in their lifetime.  Dodgy, courts, large corruption at many levels, so many individuals and businesses can be targeted for reasons you never saw coming.  Step with care.  Things can work out, and many have made things work out.

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12 hours ago, steve73 said:

Many good replies, so I'm not sure this post will be contributing anything else.

 

I'm 58, been here 12 years, initially using 12 month ME Non-O (no longer available), which I've since been extending once over 50 using the 800k in the bank (usually takes me a full morning for travel/bank/IO, so no real hassle - yet!).. I usually keep just over 800k all year round as my "emergency" slush fund, and keep it topped up whenever the GBP rate looks favourable (using Transferwise).

 

I recently ran a DCF model to compare the 5(+1), 20(+1), against my current method. In summary,  (@10%) the 800k is discounted to "virtually" nothing after 21 years, and the other annual costs make it broadly similar to the 1MM cash up-front cost.  4 (or even3) x 5(+1) is less value.  

So my conclusion was I'm happy to proceed the way I am since the benefits of having some readily available Thai baht offsets any slight economic advantage.  I don't have Health Insurance (too many preconditions), but if I was to run down my 800k throughout the year, then this might be slightly more in my favour.

 

BUT, for the OP at age 36, the retirement extension (RE) option is not available, and the decision is perhaps easier.  Unless getting married (and I have met a few older guys who have done this simply to be able to get the "RE" cheaper), the Elite is the only way to stay here long term hassle free.  

 

At 36, the option of 20(+1) and then RE is slightly more expensive than 5(+1) x 2 (almost, followed closely by a RE, or even 5(+1) x 3 then RE, but in reality, the cost difference is marginal, and the other benefits (that may of may not be of value to each individual), makes it difficult to accurately compare.  Also, the investment returns you can achieve on the other 1/2MM for the first 6 years makes a huge difference.

 

But at 36 with adequate resources to provide "income" without working here, does suggest money is not really a consideration.

 

Also, since we don't know what the future holds, nor when (& by how much) price increases of either the Elite or RE's will occur, these unknowns cannot be fully evaluated.

 

My suggestion to the OP would be to go for the shortest commitment. 

After all, in 6 years time Thailand MAY have changed beyond all recognition, and perhaps none of us will want to be here.

 

I wish the OP good luck whichever way you decide, (and part of me wishes I was in your position 22 years ago)..

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Your post definitely contributed great value to me and I appreciate it very much. Pretty nifty that you top up the fund whenever the GBP looks favorable, nice. 

 

Thanks for sharing your info/data on the calculations you made. "Also, the investment returns you can achieve on the other 1/2MM for the first 6 years makes a huge difference." Makes a good case for the 5+1. As you mentioned, we don't know what the future holds as far as price changes for the elite or any currency changes. Same about the point that Thailand could change so much that it becomes less desirable to live than other countries. 

 

There is a potential that 6 years down the line I freaking love this place even more, the the exchange rate is less favorable for USD to baht, and the cost of the elite goes up ????

I feel like this post has given me a lot of thoughts to ponder on while I decide. Thanks again.

 

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3 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

How often do major elections happen?  Are you serious?  Have you not researched Thailand at all?  The country has had more coups, junta takeovers, the last few decades than most countries have in their lifetime.  Dodgy, courts, large corruption at many levels, so many individuals and businesses can be targeted for reasons you never saw coming.  Step with care.  Things can work out, and many have made things work out.

To be honest, I really don't pay much attention to politics here or in the US. Usually just big tax changes like the recent tax bill in effect this year in the US. It seems like business is doing well here and the city is bustling. I can't imagine things falling to pieces after just 1 election, but as mentioned, I haven't done much research on those aspects. I probably should.

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11 hours ago, exemplary21 said:

Need to add 3900 for a multi-use re-entry permit.

3900B if you want to exit many times. 1000B per exit if you want to exit less. 0B if you dont want to exit at all. Most years I pay just 2000B or 3000B, and I know many people who havent left the country for years.

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Dear OP

I was in a similar situation to you, age, and everything. I thought of doing SETV in Singapore, and KL, as i visit there often. However they were not interested in giving visa even if I'm only in Thailand 6 months a year.

I did some basic maths. If I planned to stay here at least 7 or 8 years. That would be two 5 year visas, which would cost 1M. By paying 1m upfront, instead of 500k, I would get the option to stay an extra 10 years without an additional fee.

This also gives me the benefit that if fur any reason I need a prolonged stay (sickness, accident, avoiding riots in France) I can do so without worry about overstay or doing border runs.

There are also some useful frills:

1) Correct stamp when entering, checked by staff and sorted out on spot if IO make a boo boo
2) Banks, immigration, government offices, police, etc, are happy when they see a 5 year visa in your passport.
3) 90 day report in person is done so quickly I sometimes don't need to sit down.
4) if needed, you can stay in the country without leaving for 20 years.
5) Depending on when, you may lock in a good exchange rate, as the price is in baht and does not change according to world currencies.

Also, have not heard a single story of anyone having any problems.

Sent from my ASUS_Z017DB using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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On 12/10/2018 at 12:58 AM, MehrK said:

"Also, the investment returns you can achieve on the other 1/2MM for the first 6 years makes a huge difference." Makes a good case for the 5+1.

How does the renewal process work for the 20 years membership? I understood that you are entitled to four 5-year renewable multiple-entry visas (not 20-year validity). Could you extend up to 24 years by re-entering just before the 5 year expiration and renew an additional 5 years at the end of the sixth year? 

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:23 AM, JayBird said:

2) Banks, immigration, government offices, police, etc, are happy when they see a 5 year visa in your passport.

1

Sounds good! Any experiences with:

- driver license and international driver permit? 

- chinese visa and other embassies that usually only allow non-immigrant visas holders to apply?

- certificate of tax residence and annual tax return (for those spending 180+ days per calendar year)

 

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:23 AM, JayBird said:

3) 90 day report in person is done so quickly I sometimes don't need to sit down.

Since the Elite application form does not ask for a local address in Thailand:

Can you do the 90-day report in any provinces if you don't always stay in the same place?

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Sounds good! Any experiences with:
- driver license and international driver permit? 
- chinese visa and other embassies that usually only allow non-immigrant visas holders to apply?
- certificate of tax residence and annual tax return (for those spending 180+ days per calendar year)
 
I've had no problems getting a Thai driving license with just an SETV, so should be no problem with TE. I've not needed the others so could not comment

Sent from my ASUS_Z017DB using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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Since the Elite application form does not ask for a local address in Thailand:
Can you do the 90-day report in any provinces if you don't always stay in the same place?
Yes. I've moved and did it in different provinces. No problems, just need to update your address with immigration.

Sent from my ASUS_Z017DB using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:23 AM, JayBird said:

Dear OP

I was in a similar situation to you, age, and everything. I thought of doing SETV in Singapore, and KL, as i visit there often. However they were not interested in giving visa even if I'm only in Thailand 6 months a year.

I did some basic maths. If I planned to stay here at least 7 or 8 years. That would be two 5 year visas, which would cost 1M. By paying 1m upfront, instead of 500k, I would get the option to stay an extra 10 years without an additional fee.

This also gives me the benefit that if fur any reason I need a prolonged stay (sickness, accident, avoiding riots in France) I can do so without worry about overstay or doing border runs.

There are also some useful frills:

1) Correct stamp when entering, checked by staff and sorted out on spot if IO make a boo boo
2) Banks, immigration, government offices, police, etc, are happy when they see a 5 year visa in your passport.
3) 90 day report in person is done so quickly I sometimes don't need to sit down.
4) if needed, you can stay in the country without leaving for 20 years.
5) Depending on when, you may lock in a good exchange rate, as the price is in baht and does not change according to world currencies.

Also, have not heard a single story of anyone having any problems.

Sent from my ASUS_Z017DB using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Thanks for sharing Jaybird. Interesting about KL, I got there often and didn't think there would be issues getting SETV's. Either way, seems like the elite is the way to go.

 

I submitted my application with the 20 year 1m baht one ticked off. I still can change my mind to 5 year while they're approving my app. We'll see how I feel at the time my app is approved lol.

 

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16 hours ago, julot said:

Sounds good! Any experiences with:

- driver license and international driver permit? 

- chinese visa and other embassies that usually only allow non-immigrant visas holders to apply?

- certificate of tax residence and annual tax return (for those spending 180+ days per calendar year)

 

Regarding a 'driver license', I received one at Chonburi a few months ago with my TE visa.

 

Two-year license, NOT five year, and a TE person will accompany (free of charge) if requested at the DL office.

 

 

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On 12/8/2018 at 7:23 AM, Percy Penguin said:

You still have to do 90 day reporting with the TE visa, right? Anyway I thought the hassle the OP had in mind was more that after a few years of doing 9 months out of 12 in Thailand, you're going to be getting the fear as soon as you hit the tarmac. That's what you buy your way out of with the TE card, I'd say.

 

I only do 180 days a year so think I can get away with tourist visas for a good few years, but at 9 months a year I can definitely see the point.

 

In the OP's situation I would go for the 5/6 year option and take the risk of the TE being withdrawn or the price being hiked in that time, but the real cost/benefit per year is close enough that I don't think the numbers will give you the answer. It comes down to personal preference IMO. I think you can justify either option, especially if you keep in mind that the equation changes when you hit 50.

Yes 90 day reporting still has to be done, but Elite Visa says they will handle that for you if you live in certain cities, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, maybe Pattaya also.  And one has to still get the extension to stay every year for the current 1900  baht price.  I believe that is in the fine print and often overlooked.   So one still has to deal with a one year extension just as other people do. 

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