Thai Elite 20 vs 5 year, Thoughts?

[dbrenn]

9 minutes ago, donnacha said:

So, yes, these things cycle in both directions. As you say, they like money, reviving the tourist industry will be low-hanging fruit for a future elected government.

But we're not talking about tourism here - we're talking about long term temporary residency that Thai Elite offers.

 

Even the most despotic regimes in the world welcome short term tourists, making it easier and competing to attract the tourist dollar, as you say. But, and conversely, long term stays, (temporary and permanent) residency and citizenship seem only to be getting harder - especially in Thailand, and I think this is why those who can afford the 20 year TE think that it's good value.

 

Thailand is actually rather more stable than you give it credit for - when things get out of hand, the army set them straight again. I don't think that's going to change in the foreseeable future - the army is very powerful and they will stop at nothing to maintain the status quo as we can see.

[cerox]

donnacha has very well summarized the points to think about. Thank you for that.

 

I see it the same way. I am in my thirties well off retirement visa age and I do not buy Elite card for the reasons mentioned: political situation (20 years ahead?), Thai baht strength, other countries have improved a lot like the Philippines, Vietnam, Immigration changes rules quickly, and most importantly I love being flexible, 20 years is just too long to "force" myself to stay here. Maybe I want to be somewhere else in 3 years, think about that, 20 years is a long time to fix your life.

 

You can still do ED visa, but yes I am aware this might end some day in which case we would have to leave. But honestly esp. Chiang Mai has so many corrupt ED visa options, I do not see it ending anytime soon, worst case that could happen is issues in Bangkok, so we always have to enter Thailand via CNX or other points of entry with ED visas.

[donnacha]

1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

But we're not talking about tourism here - we're talking about long term temporary residency that Thai Elite offers.

Good point, although I believe most countries also allow those granted residency the right to work, and don't require you to fly out once per year, so, the difference from the tourist visas is not as great as it could be. Of course, the ability for people like me to continue living here on back-to-back tourist visas is undoubtedly more perilous, some level of certainty would be the main advantage of the Elite.

 

5 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

I don't think that's going to change in the foreseeable future - the army is very powerful and they will stop at nothing to maintain the status quo as we can see.

I hope you're right, although the resentment up here in the north is stronger and more openly expressed than at any time during my three decades here.

[donnacha]

5 minutes ago, cerox said:

I am in my thirties well off retirement visa age

At your youthful age, one advantage is that you could actually get real use out of a 20-year visa, before neatly moving on to a retirement visa after it.

I agree, though, that there are so many other options, you will most likely always be able to patch something together unless you have a specific need to be in Thailand for all 12 months of the year, every year. Living in Chiang Mai, it would probably be smarter to get out of there for at least the 3 or 4 months of the smoky season ????

[Metapod]

If you work online/abroad, then the elite Visa pays for itself. The money I save by living in Thailand and only having to pay tax on foreign earnings remitted in the same year is HUGE. Vietnam so great too and on the up and up, but you are going to be paying 30%+ tax there compared to 0% in Thailand.

 

That reason alone makes Thailand the winner. 

[donnacha]

2 minutes ago, Metapod said:

If you work online/abroad, then the elite Visa pays for itself. The money I save by living in Thailand and only having to pay tax on foreign earnings remitted in the same year is HUGE.

You don't need an Elite visa to apply for a Thai tax number. I was not aware that the Elite scheme did anything specific to make it easier, but would be interested to know if it does.

There is also an extent to which your originating country may not accept your claim that you are no longer liable for taxes there unless you can show that you are actually paying taxes somewhere. For that reason, many digital nomads seek out low-tax rather than zero tax countries.

[CartagenaWarlock]

I applied for a 20-year visa last week. The rep said it may take up to 3-month for approval. I used my Antigua passport. I am in Singapore right now. I don't have visa free-entry into Thailand. Can I apply for tourist visa in Singapore and enter Thailand? I want to open a bank account in Thailand. This will be my first visit to Thailand

Edited March 31, 2019 by CartagenaWarlock

[dbrenn]

24 minutes ago, donnacha said:

resentment up here in the north is stronger 

I thought that Thailand was going to hell in a hand cart when I (foolishly) ventured out to watch the Black May riot in 1992. The wheels still haven't fallen off though, all these years later.

[donnacha]

27 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Can I apply for tourist visa in Singapore and enter Thailand?

1

I believe so. According to the embassy, citizens of some countries can only apply for Thai visas from their own countries, but Antigua and Barbuda does not appear to be on that list: http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/instructions-for-visa-application

 

27 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I want to open a bank account in Thailand.

This can be difficult. Different branches have different policies, much depends on how they perceive you. If they regard you with suspicion, they may ask to see a work permit. If you are black or East Indian, it may be more difficult to find a bank that will allow you to open an account with just a tourist visa. It should be far easier once you actually have your Elite visa, they may even refer you to a friendly bank as part of the service.

Edited March 31, 2019 by donnacha

[kmw]

About the over stay, I am on the verge of obtaining the 5 year PE, they did ask me if I have overstayed, I have twice, one was about 12 years ago by one day, no fine, just a note in my passport, and the other was again by one day about 3 years ago, copped a thb 500 fine, PE said that it won't be an issue, so I'm guessing they bar people who overstay weeks or months on end?

[ozmeldo]

I'm just honestly uncertain they will honor it. There's not much in this country you can trust Thais on for five years let alone twenty.

 

I don't feel the hostility many on TV accuse the government of but I do see the tendency toward authoritarianism which may develop into all sorts of issues. I do see a trend to push us out of the country through bureaucratic bs.

 

Once the decision has been made to screw you by voiding the visa, not renewing or adding some bs for you to renew, extend, transfer...they are master's at this crap.

 

So, if you are ok for paying 1m for five years and ok to walk away from it year six, maybe.

 

Then, ask yourself is it possible that ten years from now might you have had your fill? Given the direction of the nation, I'd say I'm personally done with it after a very long relationship with Thailand including marriage.

 

I don't think the Thais are trustworthy. There is no democratically elected government and grows like a mix of the Philippines and communist China by the week.

 

If nothing else, buy 5 more years and reevaluate.

 

Up to you.

 

[Khaeng Mak]

On 12/8/2018 at 10:48 AM, MehrK said:

 

Over the past few years I've come in and spent a good chunk of time each year, 2-3 months. This year has been a bit longer than this. I'm growing tired of bouncing around the world without a home base and so far, in all my travels, Bangkok has been the most convenient for me as far as lifestyle, I feel really productive here and life is good. It's a great travel hub as well. It'd be nice to have a cool place to call home. I do travel a lot, and probably will during the really bad weather months.

 

The other option is the MM2H in Malaysia, but that ties up a bit more funds (even though it's in an account and not just flat out being spent). It's probably a better program moneywise, but I like life in Thailand better than Malaysia so far.

 

This is a great question and thanks for helping me think about this out loud. I don't think I'm at the point where I can say I definitely want to stay here a full 20 years, but at the same time I can see myself living here for the time being. I must say that I've been a bit worried about all the reports I've heard of people getting denied entry on back to back tourist visas and extensions. Getting a long term lease and worrying about that, and not being able to get my stuff if I have an issue, is what's making me consider this. I just don't want to think about and/or worry about anything Visa/immigration related, have a home base, and come and go as I please.

 

I've thought about doing the Muay Thai visa for a year to see how I like it, but I also don't want to be required to do that 2x a week, because I train other martial arts and it might be too much. Sounds fun at first, but I would then be reliant on that haha.

Enroll part-time in an MBA program.  It would give you four years of visas and the cost is significantly less than the Elite visa.  And, of course, you would also have something to show for your money.

 

[donnacha]

24 minutes ago, Khaeng Mak said:

Enroll part-time in an MBA program.  It would give you four years of visas and the cost is significantly less than the Elite visa.  And, of course, you would also have something to show for your money.

Interesting idea, but time is money, and MBA courses are a lot of work. For visa purposes, you would have to attend all the classes, but the quality of third-level teaching in Thailand is just about the lowest in the world. Might be painful to sit through the Thai interpretation of modern business concepts.

If you actually wanted an MBA, and were willing to invest that much time and energy, better to do it anywhere else, but I'm not sure MBAs are really worth all that much in the West anymore apart from the prestige and networking value if you get one from Wharton, Harvard, LSE etc.

If working online, some physical activity might be a better balance. There are alternatives to Muay Thai, such as Krav Maga or general self-defense courses.

Edited March 31, 2019 by donnacha

[Khaeng Mak]

8 minutes ago, donnacha said:

Interesting idea, but time is money, and MBA courses are a lot of work. For visa purposes, you would have to attend all the classes, but the quality of third-level teaching in Thailand is just about the lowest in the world. Might be painful to sit through the Thai interpretation of modern business concepts.

If you actually wanted an MBA, and were willing to invest that much time and energy, better to do it anywhere else, but I'm not sure MBAs are really worth all that much in the West anymore apart from the prestige and networking value if you get one from Wharton, Harvard, LSE etc.

If working online, some physical activity might be a better balance. There are alternatives to Muay Thai, such as Krav Maga or general self-defense courses.

Thai MBAs are not a lot of work.  And you will be among some lovely young ladies daily so lots of opportunity for physical activity. No need to attend classes just ensure your course work is submitted as required. Cost is a fraction of an Elite visa.  

 

As far as utility of an MBA goes. I agree, little to none.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Khaeng Mak

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, ozmeldo said:

I'm just honestly uncertain they will honor it. There's not much in this country you can trust Thais on for five years let alone twenty.

 

I don't feel the hostility many on TV accuse the government of but I do see the tendency toward authoritarianism which may develop into all sorts of issues. I do see a trend to push us out of the country through bureaucratic bs. 

 

Once the decision has been made to screw you by voiding the visa, not renewing or adding some bs for you to renew, extend, transfer...they are master's at this crap.

It's not so much "the government" which is the problem - just an anti-farang clique within some departments - most importantly in this context, including immigration. 

The elite is just a legal version of the payoff system which is common.  What I would worry about, is a "what have you done for me lately," attitude developing, with the longer-terms of it.  But, so far, they are not blocking entry for those with the older elite deals - if for no other reason, than to prevent undermining sales of new elite visa payoffs. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

This can be difficult. Different branches have different policies, much depends on how they perceive you. If they regard you with suspicion, they may ask to see a work permit. If you are black or East Indian, it may be more difficult to find a bank that will allow you to open an account with just a tourist visa. It should be far easier once you actually have your Elite visa, they may even refer you to a friendly bank as part of the service.

I'm East Indian by ethnicity. The elite rep told me they would help me open a bank account only after the visa is granted. I read in an Indian diaspora Facebook group that people with Indian passport could easily open an account if they buy an insurance for 5K THB or if they deposit 50K THB as opening balance. But I don't have an Indian passport. I may try that route or else wait for two/three months.

[ThomasThBKK]

3 hours ago, kmw said:

About the over stay, I am on the verge of obtaining the 5 year PE, they did ask me if I have overstayed, I have twice, one was about 12 years ago by one day, no fine, just a note in my passport, and the other was again by one day about 3 years ago, copped a thb 500 fine, PE said that it won't be an issue, so I'm guessing they bar people who overstay weeks or months on end?

 

Yes, 1 day overstays are msot likely not even in their system. 

 

 

They just don't like people who disregard the laws and deliberately overstayed for weeks, 1 day can easily happen by mistake. 

 

 

A friend of me had 2 1 day overstays too and got his visa this week. 

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I'm East Indian by ethnicity. The elite rep told me they would help me open a bank account only after the visa is granted. I read in an Indian diaspora Facebook group that people with Indian passport could easily open an account if they buy an insurance for 5K THB or if they deposit 50K THB as opening balance. But I don't have an Indian passport. I may try that route or else wait for two/three months.

 

They told my friend it takes 3 months too, took only 2.5 weeks tho... So i am quite sure u won't have to wait so long. 

 

Once u got it they have kasikorn and bangkok bank as partners and u can open there, uob and krungsri also works fine on elite visa. 

[MRToMRT]

On 12/10/2018 at 1:00 AM, gk10002000 said:

Instead of 5 or 20, I suggest the intermediate option that became available just a few years ago.  800k for 10 years.  That might be a reasonable risk/reward tradeoff.

  5 year 500k

10 year 800 k

I never knew there was a 10 year 800k one - it got me thinking how would that compare to. the 10 year O-X so I looked the O-X in comparision ...... for the O-X you would need to 

 

need to be over 50

need supporting docs (police report, med report)

need to stash 3 mil in a Thai bank for 1 year before appllication

need to keep 1.5 mill in thai bank for x year/s

not 100% clear on conditions for post 5 year extension (5 + 5)

AND the local insurance component which would be ......

based on no preconditions the quote for the first year is 40,000 baht, lets say that this compounds at 20% a year (it will go up annually plus if you have a claim it will go up) ergo 

40 + 48 + 58 + 70 + 82 + 98 + 117 + 140 + 168 + 200 = 1,021,000 Baht

plus the flight and hotel fee to fly to your home country to apply.

 

Elite looks good even to over 50

 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by MRToMRT

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

I never knew there was a 10 year 800k one - it got me thinking how would that compare to. the 10 year O-X so I looked the O-X in comparision ....

 

Elite looks good even to over 50

... in comparison to the nightmare conditions of the O-X, yes, the O-X is truly awful. 

 

But compare to 10x "agent-assisted" extensions of stay (no financials, TM-30s, etc needed) including multiple-re-entry permit and 90-day reporting = ~25K/yr * 10 yrs = 250K pay-as-you-go

 

Or, do things "by the book," lock up 800K (which you get to retain ownership of), and do "hand holding" agent-extensions including multiple-re-entry permit for ~10K/yr = 100K pay-as-you-go.

 

Both sound like a better-deal than - 800K just gone, All Up Front.   

[LongTang]

8 hours ago, kmw said:

About the over stay, I am on the verge of obtaining the 5 year PE, they did ask me if I have overstayed, I have twice, one was about 12 years ago by one day, no fine, just a note in my passport, and the other was again by one day about 3 years ago, copped a thb 500 fine, PE said that it won't be an issue, so I'm guessing they bar people who overstay weeks or months on end?

 

Please update us regarding your application, Maybe the fact that we all raised here the problematic and unfair aspects of the new rule helped to change something over there ! ????

[Jingthing]

Two questions.
Do you have to pay first or do you wait for provisional upon payment application approval before coughing up the big bucks?

Also have people experienced any problems boarding airplanes to Thailand with the Elite visa?

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[Thailand Outcast]

If only there was a 1 year Elite Card for around $500USD.  It would make life so much easier here.  ????

[galt67]

10 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I applied for a 20-year visa last week. The rep said it may take up to 3-month for approval. I used my Antigua passport. I am in Singapore right now. I don't have visa free-entry into Thailand. Can I apply for tourist visa in Singapore and enter Thailand? I want to open a bank account in Thailand. This will be my first visit to Thailand

1

RE: Thai Bank Account

 

After receiving your TE Visa,  the TE staff will arrange an appointment for you (by request) to open an account with Bangkok Branch.

 

Yes, I did it, and it was very smooth.

[galt67]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Two questions.
Do you have to pay first or do you wait for provisional upon payment application approval before coughing up the big bucks?

Also have people experienced any problems boarding airplanes to Thailand with the Elite visa?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

1

Regarding "payment", it's once officially approved in 'writing.'

 

I received an email confirming my 'approval' with transfer instructions for the funds. Then I transferred the monies.

 

A few days after the transfer, I met the TE Rep at CW and received my new visa.

 

Regarding "problems boarding airplanes", it's been just the opposite. I frequently make one-way trips into BKK and frequently asked by airline personnel "do you have a visa?"

 

Showing the TE visa has worked several multiple times. Never an issue.

[donnacha]

 

12 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I'm East Indian by ethnicity. The elite rep told me they would help me open a bank account only after the visa is granted. I read in an Indian diaspora Facebook group that people with Indian passport could easily open an account if they buy an insurance for 5K THB or if they deposit 50K THB as opening balance. But I don't have an Indian passport.

It is possible to open a Thai bank account without purchasing an Elite visa, or expensive insurance or depositing a large amount of money. You just have to find a bank clerk who is willing to spend 15 minutes setting it up for you. It may or not be worth your time to search for one. It can be very helpful to bring a respectable (non-bar) Thai with you, preferably one who is already a customer of that bank. If you make friends with Thais, they can be incredibly willing to help.

I have the impression that Bangkok Bank tends to be easier, but different branches have different policies. You can probably find discussion, in this forum, about various branches. Some say that branches that already have a lot of foreign account holders will be easier, others report better treatment in branches where a foreigner is more of a novelty.

A lot depends on the individual clerk's gut reaction to you. If they do not feel like dealing with you, they will start asking for documents you are unlikely to have, such as a work permit. In Thai culture, the easiest way to avoid work is to find a reason that something is not possible.

I am absolutely sure that your Antiguan passport will make that easier than an Indian passport, but some Thais will still be biased based on ethnicity alone. Many Thais consider Indians to be untrustworthy, there is an old saying to that effect. There are long-established Indian communities in Thailand, there are probably bank branches that mostly serve those communities and might, therefore, be inclined to regard your ethnicity with less bias.

Edited March 31, 2019 by donnacha

[Metapod]

15 hours ago, donnacha said:

You don't need an Elite visa to apply for a Thai tax number. I was not aware that the Elite scheme did anything specific to make it easier, but would be interested to know if it does.

There is also an extent to which your originating country may not accept your claim that you are no longer liable for taxes there unless you can show that you are actually paying taxes somewhere. For that reason, many digital nomads seek out low-tax rather than zero tax countries.

 

It's not about the tax number, it is about establishing your domicile abroad, which the elite visa makes it very easy to do. For online/aboard workers and businessmen, the visa pays itself off in a matter of years (depending on your earnings). You don't need to pay tax, you just need to fulfill the requirements for non-residency for your home country.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Metapod

[donnacha]

25 minutes ago, Metapod said:

 

It's not about the tax number, it is about establishing your domicile abroad, which the elite visa makes it very easy to do. For online/aboard workers and businessmen, the visa pays itself off in a matter of years (depending on your earnings). You don't need to pay tax, you just need to fulfill the requirements for non-residency for your home country.

 

Very interesting, I had not realized it was considered a residence visa. So, that might mean that, for those 50 and over, the retirement visa can be used, in the same way, to establish domicile for tax purposes. Handy.

Regarding the Thai tax number, I have had to supply mine for various purposes back in Europe, including bank accounts. 

[Drax]

7 hours ago, Metapod said:

 

It's not about the tax number, it is about establishing your domicile abroad, which the elite visa makes it very easy to do. For online/aboard workers and businessmen, the visa pays itself off in a matter of years (depending on your earnings). You don't need to pay tax, you just need to fulfill the requirements for non-residency for your home country.

???? you just found why I stay here. People think I stay in Thailand for the girls and party because young. Nope. ????????. The weather convenience and taxes make it attracting compared to my country. Living cost isn’t even cheaper in bkk, actually more expensive. 

[malagateddy]

I honestly wish that some people would stop banging on about the so called anti western attitude in this country.
Please remember the " shoddy " way a certain 4 countries have treated their citizens here in Thailand.
Also, Thailand has every right to " tighten up " it's immigration procedures as it sees fit to do so.
2005 I took my wife to the UK..several years later..She got Indefinite Leave to Remain followed by Citizenship..totalling bout 1400 pounds..
When we left the UK to move over here..the financial cost of Ind. Leave to Remain was about 1600 quid..and tons more rules/regs along with it.
Everyone here in Thailand needs to go with the flo..as you would do in your respective home countries.
Many UK laws/rules/regs have changed nationally..locally..city councils etc in the last 15/20 years.
Cheers

That is a good strategy when dealing with regular visas at regular prices, where the cost is rarely more than you would otherwise have to spend on flights out and back into a country, but the Elite visa is a considerably larger investment. It is worth, at the very least, considering the ways in which a worsening situation in Thailand could make it a bad investment or, also possible, an improving situation could make it an unnecessary investment.

Despite the name, the 20-year Elite Visa is not an actual visa, it is a commitment by the current government to give you a series of five-year visas that allow you to remain in Thailand for up to one year at a time.

In recent decades, as far as I know, no Thai government has reneged on such a commitment by a previous government, but that does not mean it will not happen or, as the current anti-Western trend accelerates, that additional strictures might not be placed upon the scheme, such as needing to buy Thai medical insurance.

Also, as with any visa, any Immigration Officer has the discretion to refuse you entry, for any reason. Again, I have not heard of this happening yet but there is no technical reason why it could not start happening a lot if a future government started regretting the scheme.

If, on the other hand, a future elected government has financially literate leadership, or is simply more responsive to the needs of the poorer sections of society most affected by the loss of Western tourism, it is not a wild stretch to guess that we might see the return of the simple six-month tourist visas or, even, a six-month visa waiver period. Any such move would likely be accompanied by a return to the more liberal attitudes towards back-to-back visa runs.

I am willing to pay for convenience, and I like Thailand, but growing misgivings about the direction of the government, cost-of-living, and exchange rates give me pause. In the wake of this election, I also consider the risk of widespread, prolonged civil unrest to be non-trivial. In short, paying a huge amount upfront for 5 or 20 years strikes me as a poor bet.

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